Forums » Crafting

Your crafting class, a bolstering choice

    • 647 posts
    May 18, 2020 4:45 AM PDT

    A quick thank you @Slash on https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/rogue-halfling.322/ for getting this train of thoughts going.

     

    With a game where crafting is designed to be more impactful alongside adventuring, the following question could be post; To what degree should/could the choice of your trade be of influence to your adventure class?

    I’ll use Slash’s example: A Halfling rogue chooses the trade of an alchemist.

    Bonuses or boosts derived from the alchemist class could boost the rogue to a degree that makes them stand out more, in comparison to a Halfling rogue who’s chosen to be a scribe. Or the other way around, where a racial choice impacts the outcome of your trade skill profession.

    Would you prefer to have crafting and adventuring to be a separate parallel content in this game? Where they have no impact on each other. You’re not in danger of creating defined path for class, race and trade profession. Then again, how impactful is that trade skill carrier then, if you don’t experience an influence on the adventure class of your character. Can you really notice that you’re a blacksmith? (Do you strike harder because of your hours of smashing a hammer on the anvil?) (Although I really like this idea, where as you craft, a or a few specific stats increase after X-time. But that might be food for another topic.)

    If you allow the influence of a trade profession to be noticeable on the adventure class they are playing, this could stimulate creating more unique classes. If the impact is not that severe and if each trade profession has something to offer for each adventure class. And hereby, I do not mean, I’m a cloth wearing mage so I’ve chosen to be a tailor. I’m talking other benefits aside of crafting your own gear.

    Another way is to allow trade professions to have a severe impact on the output of your adventure class. There are ups and downs to this. It can create players that really excel in their adventure class, based on the combination of their chosen professions and the time they’ve put into them. But it also creates these “builds” in the game, that if you want to be a good rogue, you’ll have to go for alchemist or accept to be a second class rogue. Viewing this suggestion from another angle, it actually pulls down the value of trade professions as the value of your choice is not reflected in your carrier, you’re just following the straight line in front of your feet. The weight of choosing to become a stonemason does not equal to choosing to be an alchemist (in case of a rogue, for example).

    What are your opinions here? Focusing on the weight of a trade skill…what should be the impact on your adventure class (if any impact at all)?

    • 1225 posts
    May 18, 2020 6:20 AM PDT

    Adding Adventuring vertical progression to Non-Combat or general Crafting progression is a mistake.  The different spheres can support each other but should not directly boost each other.  Only the end products, looted materials and crafted objects, should interact.  Otherwise you end up with the situation where you only will accept Warrior – Frozen Steel – Armorsmiths for your guilds main tank slot.

    • 75 posts
    May 18, 2020 12:08 PM PDT
    I like the idea of integration with the PRF universe...but why would it be restricted to a combat or skill boost. If a PRF warrior uses strength for combat...would that not translate into better abilities as a craftsman who requires strength...? Same For a wizard who is making magical webs/armor?
    Maybe the could have some overlapping secondary/tertiary interactions for skill improvements...e.g. blacksmithing skill slightly increases your fishing because you can control your casts better (just for a notion)
    If it’s something you can improve at anyway by spending some time, then why not. Take your wizard to a low level mob and beat them with a stick until you arms beef up to get that wizard blacksmith going :P
    • 2801 posts
    May 19, 2020 7:29 AM PDT

    Having the initial crafting choice impact the adventuring role might work better if a character could only choose one craft. Thus - if becoming a blacksmith gave you +1 strength it would help fighters that way. Mages not so much. If you could be multiple crafts a starting bonus would just mean that every character chose every craft. On the other hand a bonus for reaching the final stage of accomplishment (master blacksmith let us say) could work well even if you could have all crafts on one character. Why not reward someone that put in the time and coin to maximize them all. But this would drive Trasak crazy - to be the absolute best adventurer a character would need to "waste" enormous amounts of time on *every* craft.

    Trasak does have a valid point but I am not entirely persuaded by it. If someone wants to be in the top raid guild, yes they may need to have their warrior be a frozen steel armorsmith. But that is just part of the choice they made wanting to be a top tier raider. The 95% of the player base that has no such ambition (remember this is a group focused game and not a raid game any more than it is a soloer game) can simply play the class they enjoy and the craft they enjoy, if any, and have no problem finding guilds and groups even if their damage output is one tenth of one percent less because they are a melted water treehugger.

    • 1225 posts
    May 19, 2020 8:16 AM PDT

    My bigger point is that crafting should stand on its own purely for crafting.  Don’t prop up its value by stashing adventuring powers in the rewards for grinding through crafting levels.  It would be different in a skills based game like skyrim rather than a class based game.

    Would much rather see the main tank needing to wear a Frozen Steel Chestplate only makeable by a master armorsmith at a unique forge then give armorsmith +10% armor for items they can make and having mastered Frozen Steel raising your cold resistance cap by another 5%.

    • 1723 posts
    May 19, 2020 10:21 AM PDT

    In a game like this, what should be the point of crafting?

    Should it be to enhance your own character in some way, or should it be to increase opportunities for socialization and connecting with other players? 

    I think it's the latter.  The former can often become a slippery slope.  If you allow blacksmiths to gain bonuses that are useful for tanks, suddenly all tanks are blacksmiths.  What does that mean for interdependence?  For socialization? What does that mean for the game's economy?  What does that mean if someone truly doesn't find crafting to be enjoyable, yet still feels compelled to do it?  Or what if someone really wants to be a blacksmith but doesn't enjoy tanking?

    • 661 posts
    May 19, 2020 12:49 PM PDT

    I like the crafting will benefit everyone, not just the crafter.  I remember being asked to craft things for high level guilds, etc.  

    But, I also wouldn't be surprised if some of the crafted items are "no drop" which would benefit only the crafter.  I would be OK with that probably...but not if they were so strong that everyone felt like they had to do that tradeskill in order to compete.  

    • 248 posts
    May 19, 2020 2:19 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    In a game like this, what should be the point of crafting?

    Should it be to enhance your own character in some way, or should it be to increase opportunities for socialization and connecting with other players? 

    I think it's the latter.  The former can often become a slippery slope.  If you allow blacksmiths to gain bonuses that are useful for tanks, suddenly all tanks are blacksmiths.  What does that mean for interdependence?  For socialization? What does that mean for the game's economy?  What does that mean if someone truly doesn't find crafting to be enjoyable, yet still feels compelled to do it?  Or what if someone really wants to be a blacksmith but doesn't enjoy tanking?

    I think that it's both. I think that a player should feel like they are getting something out of their profession, but I also don't think they should feel required to go into a certain profession based on their class. I also don't think that class choice should give anything special to a profession or vice versa. So, for example, a rogue's poison making skill wouldn't have any professional interaction in alchemy, and the items crafted in alchemy wouldn't provide rogues with anything they didn't provide another player with.  

    I also think that regardless of class every profession should have some desire or want. Looking at blacksmithing maybe I am playing a hunter what benefit do I get? Well, maybe I can craft special explosive arrowheads or serrated arrowheads that can cause bleeding on auto-attacks.  What if I'm playing a druid well maybe I want to make a shield or a one-handed edged with wisdom because I have had little luck with RNG. 

    The two biggest points regarding professions is that everything should be tradable, and there should be a lot of interdependencies within professions. Going back to that hunter who is making arrowheads... well now he has those arrowheads but he needs a woodworker to actually combine that into a usable arrow. Looking back at alchemy maybe those weapon oils require specially lined vials that only blacksmiths can make, but those vials require special crystal-infused dust that is supplied by stone workers. 

    • 647 posts
    May 19, 2020 10:23 PM PDT

    Baerr said:... If a PRF warrior uses strength for combat...would that not translate into better abilities as a craftsman who requires strength...? Same For a wizard who is making magical webs/armor? Maybe the could have some overlapping secondary/tertiary interactions for skill improvements...

    I have thought about this option aswel, I believe there is a thread about it somewhere.

    I can see a certain logic when some stats are used in both worlds. There could be a mathematical logarithm behind it, to keep these cross stats in check and not overpowering or really "metabuild forming".

    Personally, I don't see how this could harm either player style. If the impact of it is slim. It makes sense but it's not class defining in the long run.

    • 647 posts
    May 19, 2020 10:37 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Having the initial crafting choice impact the adventuring role might work better if a character could only choose one craft. Thus - if becoming a blacksmith gave you +1 strength it would help fighters that way. Mages not so much. If you could be multiple crafts a starting bonus would just mean that every character chose every craft. On the other hand a bonus for reaching the final stage of accomplishment (master blacksmith let us say) could work well even if you could have all crafts on one character. Why not reward someone that put in the time and coin to maximize them all. But this would drive Trasak crazy - to be the absolute best adventurer a character would need to "waste" enormous amounts of time on *every* craft.

    Trasak does have a valid point but I am not entirely persuaded by it. If someone wants to be in the top raid guild, yes they may need to have their warrior be a frozen steel armorsmith. But that is just part of the choice they made wanting to be a top tier raider. The 95% of the player base that has no such ambition (remember this is a group focused game and not a raid game any more than it is a soloer game) can simply play the class they enjoy and the craft they enjoy, if any, and have no problem finding guilds and groups even if their damage output is one tenth of one percent less because they are a melted water treehugger.

    If indeed, multiclassing is possible in Pantheon, we'll need to review this suggestion entirely of course. As the numbers might add up to too big of a thing.

    It could very well undermine the weight crafting has. Chosing a craft should remain a choice with ups and downs. You might need to cut back on dungeon time in order to invest more in crafting and vice versa. (unless you're that person who has that amount of spare time in their real life ofc). Chosing to craft and to be good at it, should matter. If all players are going to choose all crafts for those extra bits here and there, where's the impact of choice?

    The stats increase I had in mind, would be rather small and spread along the crafting carrier. I do not see a stat increase every level or after each produced item. So the impact of leveling, abilities chosen and gear would be much much bigger than these few stats you might get as a crafter.   BUT... it does fit, for a stonemason to become stronger due to long work hours at their station. Or to gain a Stamina point because they've been working for hours on end. Does that make you stand out more as a raider? I doubt it, unless every raider has the same build, gear and playstyle. 

    I think, the crafters will like this occasional boost of a related stat. They'll think much more of themselves. They might feel 'stronger' in their profession. It could help in encouraging the experience of standing out, growing up, progress. 

    Going a bit deeper into this. If you have earned that extra related stat, this increase might slightly benefit you during your craftingprocess. You become more efficient. It facilitates you in some manner. (I'm thinking: impact on the mathematical challenge behind the screens). 

    • 647 posts
    May 19, 2020 10:52 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Should it be to enhance your own character in some way, or should it be to increase opportunities for socialization and connecting with other players? 

    I think it's the latter.  The former can often become a slippery slope.  If you allow blacksmiths to gain bonuses that are useful for tanks, suddenly all tanks are blacksmiths.  What does that mean for interdependence?  For socialization? What does that mean for the game's economy?  What does that mean if someone truly doesn't find crafting to be enjoyable, yet still feels compelled to do it?  Or what if someone really wants to be a blacksmith but doesn't enjoy tanking?

    Yeah, I hear what you and Trasak are saying. That's why I'm stressing on the lines: No gamebreaking stat increases. Similar to my reply to Dorotea, no you don't want these stats to determine raidtanks to become smiths. Not because you don't want to stimulate them into crafting and spending more hours ingame, but rather because you're indeed undermining the value of a craft if this becomes a necessity. I get that.

    Perhaps it's best not to get caught in choice of words here. Try to approach this with an open mind. I've chosen a stat example, but really any other stat or newly invented stat or character feat/trait can be placed here. The overall idea is, what if a crafting gains something that has a cross reference to the other stats of that character.

    Why wouldn't it make sense that endurance is trained during crafting? That you get wiser from learning and reading in books and scrolls. That you get more focused due to hours of minute crafting.

    If the impact of those stat increase of crafting are that small, why have them in the game at all? Right? Just view this from an holistic angle. What could it mean to the player or character? Do you create more depth? 

    Think of this more as a 'tidbit' (if I can use Joppa's catchword here), like the dewdrop on a leaf in the game. Does it have to be there? No. Is it gamechanging, no? Does it add a certain "je ne se quoi", yes it does. 

    Is it difficult to impliment, I doubt it really. Again, this stat increase could be a stat that gets transferred to an other stat in the character, but it might not even be on a 1-1 ratio. 

    Those die hards will always find ways to get that last drop out of the wet towel. And that's fine. What I'm discussing here, might not even be on the radar of the majority of raiders. Especially if crafting is going to require more playtime or investment of the players compared to other games. You'll gain more stats with looking for ability builds, gear and consumables, so far these are none-crafter topics only. So there is still a lot of room to prevent you from those extreme examples, like we've seen in other games (eq2?). (Like what you're stating with the raidtanks being smiths.)


    This post was edited by Barin999 at May 20, 2020 2:48 AM PDT
    • 647 posts
    May 19, 2020 11:01 PM PDT

    Baldur said:

    I also think that regardless of class every profession should have some desire or want. Looking at blacksmithing maybe I am playing a hunter what benefit do I get? Well, maybe I can craft special explosive arrowheads or serrated arrowheads that can cause bleeding on auto-attacks.  What if I'm playing a druid well maybe I want to make a shield or a one-handed edged with wisdom because I have had little luck with RNG. 

    The two biggest points regarding professions is that everything should be tradable, and there should be a lot of interdependencies within professions. Going back to that hunter who is making arrowheads... well now he has those arrowheads but he needs a woodworker to actually combine that into a usable arrow. Looking back at alchemy maybe those weapon oils require specially lined vials that only blacksmiths can make, but those vials require special crystal-infused dust that is supplied by stone workers. 

    You're touching on an interesting topic there. It can be a slippery slope. What you're suggesting feels more like specializations or little corners out in the world with rare recipes. 

    This suggestion is very entertaining, but can make it very complex very quickly. Also, it might shift the focus of value/meaning of a craft more towards "the end of the line recipes" instead of the general experience of styles of crafting. So this might end up as a craftinggrind towards those special recipes and effectively making crafting itself and all that lies before that desired end product a side dish. When it actually should be your main. This main should be your goal, fun and addictive experience.

    It does open up a lot of options for very unique playerstyles depending on your adventure  class. But again, very very complex.

    • 1225 posts
    May 20, 2020 7:34 AM PDT

    If there were to be any form of adventuring vertical progression within a crafting profession it would need to be semi non stacking.  In other words gaining bonuses from crafting would fall under “mastery bonuses”.  Mastery bonuses do not stack with each other, you just take the highest.  Said bonuses might also be achievable through completion of a difficult quest, item sacrificing or as a special bonus stat on gear.

    This way crafting could give you a vertical boost to your adventuring class but there are other ways to get that or a better boost without being a crafter.  My tank example from before the Frozen Steel Breastplate could have the 5% cold mastery Armorsmith bonus stat.  Or a tank who happens to be a master armorsmith who has also mastered Frozen Steel could passively have that mastery buff and use a different breastplate.

    • 1723 posts
    May 20, 2020 7:56 AM PDT

    Barin999 said:

     

    If the impact of those stat increase of crafting are that small, why have them in the game at all? Right? Just view this from an holistic angle. What could it mean to the player or character? Do you create more depth? 

    Think of this more as a 'tidbit' (if I can use Joppa's catchword here), like the dewdrop on a leaf in the game. Does it have to be there? No. Is it gamechanging, no? Does it add a certain "je ne se quoi", yes it does. 

     

    This may simply be a difference in perspective.  I understand your intent here but from my experience - if a stat provides a significant enough benefit to players for them to care about it, it becomes required.  If it doesn't, it might as well not be in the game because it will not impact player choices at all.  You can see this same thing all the time in discussion about racial attribute bonuses.

     

    Try a different approach.  Instead of crafting professions providing bonus stats, maybe they allow the player to do some environmental interactions that would not otherwise be possible out in the world.  For example, if you're a smith, maybe you can sometimes repair machinery found in dungeons and the like, opening new pathways.  A provisioner might be able to cook special meals at certain campfires (as an environmental interaction), giving everyone there a short-term buff.  And so on.

    Make your bonuses something that are active and intentional and useful to every adventuring class, rather than being something that are passive and selective in their benefits.  That stands a better chance of providing depth and meaningful choice for players instead of becoming part of an FOTM template.

     

    • 647 posts
    May 20, 2020 12:24 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    ...Try a different approach.  Instead of crafting professions providing bonus stats, maybe they allow the player to do some environmental interactions that would not otherwise be possible out in the world.  For example, if you're a smith, maybe you can sometimes repair machinery found in dungeons and the like, opening new pathways.  A provisioner might be able to cook special meals at certain campfires (as an environmental interaction), giving everyone there a short-term buff.  And so on.

    Make your bonuses something that are active and intentional and useful to every adventuring class, rather than being something that are passive and selective in their benefits.  That stands a better chance of providing depth and meaningful choice for players instead of becoming part of an FOTM template.

    That's exactly the kind of open mind thinking I was hoping for. It was just me stuck in the stat example. Thank you for keeping our view open.

    I very much like your example. To continue on this, we're looking at adding some 'consumables' or actual situational abilities to be gained as you progress as a crafter. The impact of those campfires or smiths, might be more of a general nature. Because it could otherwise stear towards the same required class design. Where a group calls for a smith any class before entering a dungeon. 

    Overall, very good option to keep things less narrowminded. 

    • 363 posts
    May 21, 2020 10:16 AM PDT

    I definintely feel the two spheres, adventuring and crafting, should be separate but also interdependent. An adventurer should not get a direct boost to their class from a crafting sphere but as Nephele suggested, crafting should be useful, not just with providing gear, but also in interactions out in the wider world. If you don't have a rogue in the party to help climing, maybe you have a tailor/weaver who could make a rope. Crafters should rely on adventures to bring back rare materials or recipes.