This post in another thread got me thinking/remembering something that I really liked about old school MMO's.
AstralEcho said:...Suffice to say, it was a lot of effort and RNG and competition and I don't necessarily miss all of that, but the negatives were certainly mitigated by the fact that the gear was probably viable for a period of years rather than being immediately invalidated by the next inevitable item level increase.
I remember having items for a long time, months, and even years for some. The items felt important, like they were part of who my character was. In the newer MMO's I felt like I was replacing items every level or two and once at max level I was replacing items every couple of raids.
So, I'm just curious what's more fun for people. Having items that last a long time, or replacing gear constently?
Yeah, constant replacement was a Diablo-related thing. I think MMORPG builders thought "Diablo was really popular! Let's grab some of that", even though it was an utterly different audience, bigger is better, right? No.
I loved Diablo and games like Borderlands with it's constant upgrading, *but* for games that should feel like worlds, you want more permanence and meaning.
I don't think it's a matter of "more" or "less" fun, just "different game".
I'd rather take raws from the Environment (broken loot, harvests), and/or use sacrifice and/or salvage to obtain the raw materials I need. Then use faction to obtain the fuel I need. Then use loot, diplomacy, faction, trading, or find a PC or NPC scholar to get the right recipe. Then find a PC or NPC crafter, or be one myself. Then repair, create (or have created) the base item that fits my character very well. Then enchant, enhance, engrave, emboss, decorate or otherwise temporarily or permanently add modifiers to the piece of gear that enhances my spells, skills, actions, racials, abilities, and overall role for a given type or style of encounter.
But that's just me. :)
I too remember using some pieces for a long time, especially epics. I like some longevity in my gear. In part because I dont like gear being the only motivating factor for playing content aka gear treadmill. And also I want hardwork that goes into obtaining stuff to have a lasting impact.
Replacing entire sets of gear every expansion or every few months is frustrating and somewhat insulting... "You worked so hard for this over the last x months, SLAAAPP! now you get to do it all again."
Another way to provide some longevity is to incorporate crafting into the mix. Allow crafters to be able to enhance dropped gear.
There is no one answer.
Simple items like mob-dropped weapons should last a little while and then be replaced when you advance to higher mobs. So a simple commonly dropped sword should last several days.
More advanced loot like weapons with bonuses from named mobs should last longer - maybe a few weeks.
Raid level items should last you a few months.
Finally, epic items should last a few years.
(conceptual timelines only)
disposalist said:Yeah, constant replacement was a Diablo-related thing. I think MMORPG builders thought "Diablo was really popular! Let's grab some of that", even though it was an utterly different audience, bigger is better, right? No.
I loved Diablo and games like Borderlands with it's constant upgrading, *but* for games that should feel like worlds, you want more permanence and meaning.
I don't think it's a matter of "more" or "less" fun, just "different game".
Yup, agreed. I really liked Diablo and the others that fallowed (or pre-ceded). Different game style, both can be fun.
I just realized one of the effects playing games like Diablo had on me. I remember in Everquest I used to save up plat, make trades, work the market, until I could spend it all on that one desired item, then keep it for quite a while. When I played games like Diablo I'd spend my money on an item just to find something better very soon after, making me feel like I wasted my money. The long term effect this has had on me is that I tend to never spend money on items anymore lol. It's not necessarily a good thing either...I just finished M&M X (yup, first time playing it lol) and I ended the game with something like 500k gold and I had spent a total of maybe 50k gold. Because of the mentality that I have about buying items now. I should have been spending the money, not hoarding it...but I was afraid if I spent it I'd find something better right afterward.
The perfect feel to me would be the same as early EQ. You could still have banded or bronze pieces into your 40s, magic/stat items helped (and weapons helped far far more for melee) but otherwise more mundane items held some usefulness and found their way onto alts/twinks often enough to fill the gaps.
I don't know if that would work as well for Pantheon given stats will matter a lot more than they did in EQ, but I still would prefer if stats were at least rare and mundane items would have value. I feel player skill should take a much bigger spotlight than items but it feels like from WoW onward items (and the resulting stat inflation) have really taken over as the most important aspect.
I also liked how early EQ did it. Loot was rare and when you got an item it was exciting. Not just because you got to replace something but it could be the best in that slot for who knows how long.
One of the reasons this did not get old for me was that items did not bind to you. Letting you trade them to alts or friends when you were done. This made a kind of account wide progression or even friend or guild wide progression over time.
starblight said:I also liked how early EQ did it. Loot was rare and when you got an item it was exciting. Not just because you got to replace something but it could be the best in that slot for who knows how long.
....
I agree. In early days of EQ it was very common to see players up to level 40 with empty slots and entry-level gear.
But gear stats got so important that no one dares to leave the newbie yard without a full set of gear - and the best they can get.
If you go on a TLP server today, you will never see a player in Guk with one single empty slot. Loot drops were *WAY* too frequent in EQ as well and the market got *FLOODED* with gear so people simple geared up before doing anything.
In the original days of EQ, the world was not flooded with gear so players went out with minimal gear and some weren't even fully "dressed" until 6 or 12 months later.
VR, through their design decision of more horizontal progress rather than vertical, can make items last longer by holding down the rate at which stats (and by extension player/NPC power growth) increases across the levels. The other solution is to just not put that much stuff out there. Does the world need mulitple dozens of different swords out there? Or any weapon type for that matter? If you keep statflation to a minimum, being mindful of how a single stat change can affect things, you can make items 'last' longer.
All that said, I'd like to see any item last at least 10 levels with some residual usefullness for another 2 or 3. So from 1 to 50 you're looking at just 5 desired replacements for any given slot.
Depending of how much auto attack represent of your damage, with them not scaling in a regular way (no +x stat = +Y damage, but rather countering defense to reach maximum weapon potency), stat impact might not be that much outside of +mana & + health, or at least might be dampened to some extent.
Unless they go the full stat scaling route which will make gear matter that much...
Ranarius said:So, I'm just curious what's more fun for people. Having items that last a long time, or replacing gear constently?
Having items for a long time for me was more enjoyable. In every MMO I have played since EQ, I never bothered with buying, looking for certain items during leveling because I knew there is abetter item around the corner when I level. In these MMO's I just waited until I got to max level before I looked at buying items. If I know something I am looking for will last me 10 odd levels then I would make the investment, if it was 1-2 levels before a new set of items would drop or from quests then I wouldn't bother.
Sure there may have been the odd item, here and there mainly weapons more than anything else. but in EQ when I got a brestplate through camping or buying it, it would last me 10-20 levels, because upgrades were not as common or were harder to get. Just like weapons, Wurmslayer must have lasted me 20 levels back in the day, and sword of Yakish (or something like that it had haste on it)
Here we go again... Prepared to get roasted for this but again, I would vote for a loot system that can stay viable for a very long time (across multiple expansions if you're unlucky with drops) based on your character. The way that I see this possible is to keep stats on gear to a minimum such as a raid helm having 6 WIS, group/crafted 3, solo 1, and having the main stat on most sought after loot be ability based to allow for further customization of your character such as a helm dropped from a wizard that increases the damage of (insert wizard dd here) ability by 10 for raid, 6 for group/crafted, 2 for solo. This is not to suggest we should all forget our roles, but there is nothing wrong with a druid that decides they want to really specialize in HoTs and so all the gear they go after is HoT based loot and their early mastery focus is their HoT spells (of course we will master everything over time anyway).
We'll need to describe what you define as item. There are plenty of definitions here.
1) In a world you have items, which are just all about a quick flip and consumption. So the lifespan of those items (trash or quick turn over items) could be around 2-3 playsession (1 playsession = 2 hours & situating an average week of 10-14hours of gametime). It makes sense to have broken items or low value trash to be found in the world.
2) Longer would be items that can be used for gear or quests. Perhaps even items that can be used for more than 1 quest or need to be stashed for further use or upgrades.
3) Items with a specific amount of charges can be another item with different duration. This topic is already heavily discussed on the forums. (I won’t go into that here.) It has its value in the world, just don’t overpower it throughout the lifespan of the game.
4) Crafted items or common ready to equip/attune items could have a longer lifespan. This could depend on the abundance and the content of the loot tables in the game itself. That would be the defining factor of their valuable duration. I hope to see these retain their value for at least 1-3 weeks. (aka low in loot drops or demanding crafting resources)
5) Upgrades to the above could still be crafted or obtained items of a more heroic nature (quest items, dungeons). These should last even longer still. I’m happy to have such items on me for a month or more.
6) Going even higher, would range into “common” boss gear, master crafted, raid gear. This should hold value for at least 2 months.
7) The highest items with the longest value retention would be the unique epic quests, rare epic gear, epic crafted gear. These items are those that you hate to part with and stash away in your bank although useless, for keepsake. These actual value should be at least 6 months or higher. Possibly taking me another 6 months to obtain such an item (and keeping me playing for 1 year based on 1 epic and an epic follow up).
I’m certain there is more room for further interpretation, but at least these are my first few pennies in the bowl.
I have two opinions about this.
Overall I think that gear has an innate value that it adds to the player experience and the overall healthiness of a game. I think that when you are constantly replacing this gear (especially the high-end gear or gear from long quest chains) its starts to lose this innate value and it diminishes the player experience.
Now opinion number 2
I think that situational replacement is a good thing. I am pro having multiple armor sets on one character that are potentially designed to be better for certain content. For example, X armor set is good vs fire damage(meaning those traditional dragon fights), while armor set Y is good at dealing with disease mitigation. I think that situational gear value is great and it adds to horizontal progression value vs vertical progression value.
This is as much a philosophical question as it is a practical one. A lot of folks have talked about the philosophical side of it and I agree with most of what's been said above.
From a practical perspective, however, it is important for people to be upgrading/replacing items periodically. It accomplishes the following important goals:
1) Serves as an incentive for players to challenge different and higher-level content
2) Enables a market for crafted items that may constitute upgrades, as well as economic interaction in general.
3) Introduces meaningful choice for players in terms of the equipment they use (assuming that higher-level items are not linear upgrades of lower-level ones, and that the various stats matter sufficiently).
With all that said, I think the sweet spot in terms of "how long an item should last" is somewhere between 8 and 15 levels at the low end, and 3 to 5 at the high end. What I mean here is that if you're level 5 and you pick up a nice item, that item should probably continue to be useful for you all the way into the 'teens. However, if you're level 43 and pick up an item, you may end up finding a better version of it at level 48. The reason for the difference is that, ideally, progressing through levels should slow down as your level increases. So, going from level 44 to 45 might take as much time and effort as it did to go from level 5 to 15. This also means that during the time someone is leveling from 44 to 45 they're going to have many more chances to potentially acquire item upgrades. The amount of actual time that you continue to use an item may be roughly equivalent, but in terms of your level, you're more likely to replace it sooner than you would have at lower levels.
Hopefully, that makes sense to everyone reading. The bottom line is that there needs to be a pace of item upgrades to help accomplish the goals above. Other games have taken that too far by forcing upgrades on players every 3-5 levels (which leads to mudflation in a big way) and by also making upgrade paths very linear, with little option for player choice. Pantheon's goal should be for you to find a new item and really have to think about whether it's better for you or not. Sure, it might have more AC or damage, but the other stats should matter quite a bit, and it should only rarely be a clear and direct upgrade for you.
Baldur said:I think that situational replacement is a good thing. I am pro having multiple armor sets on one character that are potentially designed to be better for certain content. For example, X armor set is good vs fire damage(meaning those traditional dragon fights), while armor set Y is good at dealing with disease mitigation. I think that situational gear value is great and it adds to horizontal progression value vs vertical progression value.
Totally agree with this part no matter how long items last. I think it's cool, important, practical, and all that good stuff, to have multiple different armor sets for situations.
I think items should be viable for a bit, but not like once every 10-15 levels, and certainly not once every 2-3 levels. There are so many different things you could do with armor, and you can take examples from real life. There a good variety of plate, mail, leather, and fabrics that a person could choose from, all either an upgrade for some, or has a different property. Not to mention some of them are harder to find and acquire than others. I feel that if I were to be locked to one type of gear for nearly my entire play, I would definitely be missing out on trying out a lot of the choice VR can have in this game for armor. I like having things last, but I also don't want to be wandering around in a new zone or a higher end zone in something I got nearly when I started the game. It just doesn't seem right. While I know that in reality that armor and such was repaired and not everyone had more than one set, but in something like this, I don't really mind changing it out now and again.
I logged into my EQ account after 15 years (and updated my avatar accordingly) and was disapointed to see/remember that my Epic 1.0 had been upgraded a couple of times and although the new weapon is vastly superior (which is the only reason I upgraded) I miss that iconic look that the 1.0 had. 1.0 also took me years to get. I would've been happy keeping the 1.0 version indefinitely while just having modifiers to increase the stats.
Vandraad said:The other solution is to just not put that much stuff out there. Does the world need mulitple dozens of different swords out there? Or any weapon type for that matter?
Yes, yes it does. It needs, imo, a wide variety of everything with different stats and effects. Do you really want to play an MMORPG long term where every level 40 paladin looks exactly like every other level 40 paladin? Weapons should be usable cross-class in most cases, too, so that shaman who finds a polearm with really awesome stats can feel free to use it even if their melee might suffer a bit for it. Variety is the spice of life.
Back on topic, I agree with most that gar acquisition should be meaningful. There shouldn't be 100 of everything available on the market for anyone with a few gp to buy. Upgrading that shoulder slot you last filled 20 levels ago should be the norm. But there should be a lot of different gear in the world such that everyone looks different, *is* different. And "best in slot" should be different for everyone rather than having cookie-cutter builds everyone just copy/pastes. Of course that requires skills to have more variety, too, but gear is a huge part of that.
Akilae said:But there should be a lot of different gear in the world such that everyone looks different, *is* different. And "best in slot" should be different for everyone rather than having cookie-cutter builds everyone just copy/pastes. Of course that requires skills to have more variety, too, but gear is a huge part of that.
I believe they have a fashion loot option to display particular looks. I approve of not being the rainbow unicorn of mixed and matched armor.
Sadly cookie-cutter builds sounds like the name of the game, but I love the idea of gear going along with those builds though. I want a staff that would do something my build lacks. Getting the same item 7 times with 7 looks but with more stats on it ieach time is not progression so much as it is just silly.
In EQ best in slot was rare enough to greatly limit the people getting them. Who was willing to do long difficult quest lines for a shawl? Who was lucky enough for their item to drop from a contested mob and be the only one in the raid that needed it. Everyone may want the best in slot armor, but very few people could ever be best in slot everything. Add in how long named spawns took to come back, limiting those drops even further. If pantheon leans in that direction then best in slot will lose most of its meaning outside of the wake up at 3AM to raid contested mob crowd and the super wealthy.
Rare is not a color for the loot, but should be a description for magic items in general. If magic items are a dime a dozen then the only thing you gain are a few stat points by upgrading greens to blues to purples. When it is rare no one will have the same loot as no one will be able to find it it all.
Protip: The higher level spiders drop higher level greatswords.