Hokanu said:How would people feel if a re spec means back to zero points and have to gain the specialisations through xp (or whatever it ends up being) all over again.
Sounds a bit brutal..
I'd feel fine about it, but that's the same thing as saying "no respecs" because no one would ever do it. Why go back to 0 and re-earn them when you can just stay where you are and continue earning them.
They've already said that you'll be able to continue earning mastery points via exp, quests, trade, etc indefinitely. There is no limit to the amount you can get (but there is a max of how many you can USE of course).
Gato said: Didn't realize there'd be a max # you could use. It wouldn't be unrealistic to say a person could learn or focus on new specializations, same as they can select different abilities to be on your hotbar. If it's true you could lock yourself out (due to different choices you've made in the past) from a specialization you see fit for your character I think a respec should be possible. It should set you back a ways and it should take time to advance down these new paths, just as learning a new specialization would realistically require.
Just to be clear it is NOT possible to lock yourself out of a certain ability/spell mastery (there is NOT a max number you can use :)). All players will be able to max out every single ability/spell with enough time played, they have already said you will continue to earn mastery points through quests, experience, drops, and trading even after you are max level.
Counterfleche said: Actually, you can lock yourself out because, if you upgrade a skill, the new one replaces the old one. If you decide you preferred the older version, you are S.O.L unless you can respec.
You think they will have their mastery upgrades not actually be upgrades? More damage, more duration, new synergies, buffs full group, armor penetration, more accuracy, more threat, less threat, etc. I mean if you found one that was somehow worse than the lower level version, you should probably open a ticket.
Counterfleche said: Actually, you can lock yourself out because, if you upgrade a skill, the new one replaces the old one. If you decide you preferred the older version, you are S.O.L unless you can respec.
That's a little confusing...I must be missing something. When you put a mastery point into an ability/skill you do not lose what it used to do. It just becomes better. Can you give an example of what you mean?
Like...a single target spell becomes a group heal. Is there a situation where you wish it was NOT a group heal now and you'd prefer the single target heal? There might be good examples, if so you might have a point.
The upgrade being worse or somehow lesser than the previous level is a strawman argument. This conversation can only be had if we are under the assumption of balance. You simply have to have faith that VR balances it well. It is an invalid point.
A penalty to respeccing, especially one that wipes out your mastery points is not only pointless, it is quite frankly insulting. I would never do that for even a single mastery point in cost. Gold, fine. Mastery points? Beyond rediculous.
I really don't get some people here, they seemingly want the game to be as hard and unfun as possible. No respecs/wipes masteries, no auction so we can waste time doing a common lands tunnel thing, I have seen people wanting bags that have actual dimensional space in them and not just weight, manually aimed ranged attacks and I am sure a ton more that I am forgetting...
In another thread from some years ago, someone questioned why a Rogue, a non magical class, could enter stealth in broad daylight, in open space, under direct watch and Kilsin said because fun has to trump reality sometimes (paraphrase). I do agree, and that applies to a lot of this... And i expect to see you guys add selected rogue invis to your list of things we can't allow soon.
Some of you people are trying to make this game as niche as humanly possible with little to no benefit to yourself. How does my respeccing hurt you? The whole "it makes choices non meaningful so my tenet is broken" is a pretty sorry (and not even entirely accurate) stance to fight on.
And just to be clear, EQ is my favorite MMO ever, and most played game ever, I started a month or so after release (was in the Army, and had no PC) and played a Ranger for ~5 years, I am no stranger to hardship.
@merkades
You listed a whole bunch of things that people have asked for over the years that dont specifically relate to the topic but what it comes down to is, many people want a variety of hardship in their game.
You obviously dont agree. Which is completely ok.
Some people are looking for hardship and consequences for failure.
There are 1000 games out there with fast leveling and easy combat and free respec type of choices. That's not what drew people to this game. That is not what VR has advertised.
Merkades said:I really don't get some people here, they seemingly want the game to be as hard and unfun as possible.
Hard and fun are definitely not mutually exclusive. At this point in gaming history difficulty has almost vanished completely. I think what most of us here are longing for (and what has been advertised) is the return of difficulty. For us, that IS what makes it fun again. I do understand the point you're making, I just hope this game doesn't end up like everything else out there in the last 15 years.
Merkades said:I really don't get some people here, they seemingly want the game to be as hard and unfun as possible. No respecs/wipes masteries, no auction so we can waste time doing a common lands tunnel thing, I have seen people wanting bags that have actual dimensional space in them and not just weight, manually aimed ranged attacks and I am sure a ton more that I am forgetting...
I really suck at selling ideas if you think mass/volume is more of a hardship than Unit volume (slot inventory). Mass/volume lets you have a lot more unique items as the inventory is a list rather than a bunch of squares. It is more logical and intuitive than large items taking up as much inventory space as tiny items. And maybe the biggest advantage is inventory switches to more of a table spread sheet so you can sort for what you are looking for which is a huge help for the organizationally challenged.
Over all though don’t listen too closely to the hardcore masochists. There is a pain vs gain gradient as there are players who are interested in different points on that curve. It has been suggested that one alternate rule server turn off all of the QOL ui tools, any form of instancing/load balancing and anything else the majority of interested players request disabled, it appears respec would be on that list. That way there is still a super niche server for them to be happy on.
It should costs a lot of money or have time limit at least 1 month. As it was in EQ2, 1 plat was huge money but cost dropped every month.
@Philo - Read my last sentence please. I don't mind hard, but I want it in the encounters, not in meaningless systems that do nothing other than annoy you. At no point did I include easy fights, mini maps, no death penalties et cetera. But feel free to insist I play WoW or whatnot if you really want.
@Ranarius - I agree that hard and fun are not mutually exclusive, a good example for me is The Last of Us, that game is far more fun on Survival (not grounded though, that is just a slog). I would also refer you to the above post I wrote to Philo, though without the snarky end. I don't see how these systems make the game hard in a good way.
@Trasak - IIRC, the person (and dev who seemed to really like it) were talking about a bag system that took actual size of gear into account, therefore good luck trying to have breastplates and spears et cetera in your bag. They were even talking about mini pouches for small items on your belt and jacket pocket type things. Not like say Dragons Dogma inventory. Side note, if that was you that wrote that thread that I am referencing, and you meant Dragon's Dogma type inventory, then forget what I said, because I completely misunderstood it and I will take an L here. I don't mind that kind of inventory, though I am fine with how it is as well. I really like the idea to have a server with all that turned off for these folks, best of both worlds and opens the audience up.
Merkades said:@Philo - Read my last sentence please. I don't mind hard, but I want it in the encounters, not in meaningless systems that do nothing other than annoy you. At no point did I include easy fights, mini maps, no death penalties et cetera. But feel free to insist I play WoW or whatnot if you really want.
I don't care what you played...and saying EQ was your favorite mmo doesn't mean you embrace penalties for failure or hardship. But the point was, many people do and you openly disagreed with many suggestions that aligned with that view. It's fine if you disagree. Just don't act like you don't. What "annoys you" may be a strong incentive for someone else. Be more open minded.
In the end it's about what is best for the game. I think VR definitely needs to err on the side of harshness as far as penalties and systems go...for a number of reasons...which we can get into if you want to have that conversation.
People assume, either ignorantly or dishonestly, that players won't/won't want to min-max. In this game just like every other game there will be a meta and if the only way to not screw up your character permanently is to google builds beforehand then that is what people will do. It makes absolutely zero sense to ask players to commit to "choices" that they have no idea about the context of or the consequences of. It's less choice and more russian roulette.
Its even more perplexing that the people that always want this game to be just like EQ think that this is how it will be, considering EQ is highly mapped out, min-maxed and meta-driven. What you're wishing for is a time when information was hard to find. It has nothing to do with game design, just the way the internet has changed.
Spluffen said:if the only way to not screw up your character permanently is to google builds beforehand then that is what people will do.
Good news is, that is not how mastery works whether or not they allow respeccing or a forget method to slowly undo mistakes.
Having a FOTM meta build will be a thing. Having boss or zone specific builds will be a thing. Going from a more solo focus to group focus will be a thing. With or without respecs the focus of each player will change over time. Without respecs a characters mastery selection shows the progression of an adventurer. It tells a story on its own. Everything they learned and when had a reason. Even if you are trying to follow the various metas they will change and evolve, your PC will show a history of always chasing the new meta as they grow. With respecs you just become a clone of the "best" build. At that point why even have mastery points the player spends? Why not just unlock things in the perfect order?
Ranarius said:Erring on the side of harshness is a great point. It's always easier to ease up on the harshness than it is to ... whatever the opposite of that is. Start it off harsh, if we find that it's too harsh, ease up a bit maybe. The other way around would never work though.
That is part of it, but also part of Pantheons talking point has always been that it wouldn't be another one of "those" games that have become the norm in the mmo genre in the last 15ish years.
Things like death penalties, naked corpse runs, slow leveling. trains, long camps. slow pace of combat, minimal solo ability where relying on others is necessary are just a few examples. There are many things that make up "challenge" that has been missing from games.
But there also needs to be the same mindset of harshness added to the new systems...such as respecs. They can't only have the old systems that were harsh. The new systems have to fit that as well.
The reason why so many of us are here is because of the harshness and penalties that have been missing for so long. If VR doesn't end up with a game that provides that harshness I know myself and others will feel like VR missed their mark and that this won't end up being the game we are looking for.
So yes, err on the side of harshness because it is always easier to tune it down later than tune it up...
But also err on the side of harshness because that is what this game is supposed to be. Something different. That is why many of us were drawn here in the first place.
philo said:The reason why so many of us are here is because of the harshness and penalties that have been missing for so long. If VR doesn't end up with a game that provides that harshness I know myself and others will feel like VR missed their mark and that this won't end up being the game we are looking for.
Just to add on, everyone in their right mind knows they won't get everything they want, but on the off chance one of our rambling threads gives them a new idea or frames a problem in a new way it will hopefully make the game better overall. Thats right Dev, I mean you, focus on what makes sense for a player character, players will always make it work.
Spluffen said:
People assume, either ignorantly or dishonestly, that players won't/won't want to min-max. In this game just like every other game there will be a meta and if the only way to not screw up your character permanently is to google builds beforehand then that is what people will do. It makes absolutely zero sense to ask players to commit to "choices" that they have no idea about the context of or the consequences of. It's less choice and more russian roulette.
Its even more perplexing that the people that always want this game to be just like EQ think that this is how it will be, considering EQ is highly mapped out, min-maxed and meta-driven. What you're wishing for is a time when information was hard to find. It has nothing to do with game design, just the way the internet has changed.
I have to say that it is quite arrogant to say people are ignormant or dishonest when talking about the ability to respec when they dont agree with you. Also, the vast number of posts is about whether people should respec not whether they want to or not. It makes huge sense to ask players to commit to a skill path when they see what that path will lead to, and RotF provides that clarity. VR have also said that they expect players to be able to max their mastery so there is no point in respecs.
In a game that has always said that the choices matter, it makes no sense to have one area where a player can experiment to their hearts content. I agree that information is easy to find these days, making a game easy to play is not a consequence of that though.
Game design usually ends up catering for the masses (i.e. as easy as possible), it is refreshing to see a promise to make choices matter in a game that promises that the enjoyment comes from the exploration and game play. I for one, really hope that it is hard. Hard in playing, hard in choices and above all satisfying. I have never been satisfied from a cookie cut character. IMHO, if I mess up and choose a mastery A over mastery B, then it is still an advantage. Make it work.
Its quite funny that when people wish for "hard" it aligns exactly with what its like in EQ, even if it isn't even a matter of hard (this mastery thing is literally a google search away). On the other hand you never see anyone asking for permadeath, full loot pvp or whatever else hard things there are. I propose you guys just replace the word 'hard' with 'everquest' xD
Spluffen said:Its quite funny that when people wish for "hard" it aligns exactly with what its like in EQ, even if it isn't even a matter of hard (this mastery thing is literally a google search away). On the other hand you never see anyone asking for permadeath, full loot pvp or whatever else hard things there are. I propose you guys just replace the word 'hard' with 'everquest' xD
As a side note - I think you have a misunderstanding of the mastery system in this game. There aren't "builds" or "skill trees" ... you can't run out of mastery points ... sure, you could spend a point in something then later on say "hmm, I don't really use that ability very often" but then all you need to do is spend your next point in something different. It's not like WoW where you have a limitted number of points to put in.