Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Respeccing mastery points... please no

    • 194 posts
    May 17, 2020 3:26 AM PDT

    Rigidity is not what makes WoW Classic fun. It was requiring more than just showing up to get a free epic, actually working with people to achieve a goal.

    • 817 posts
    May 17, 2020 10:21 AM PDT

    justdrop said:

    Rigidity is not what makes WoW Classic fun. It was requiring more than just showing up to get a free epic, actually working with people to achieve a goal.

    While I fully believe the LFG and LFR system were the worst part of the new WoW, having instant free respecs and a dumbed down talent tree both played their part in making WoW less fun, less "rigid."  We really need to stop using that word. 

    Builds matter more in Vanilla.  Changing the build have a literal cost.  More attacks have cast times causing your in combat choices to matter more as well.  Racials have amazing synergy with some abilities and builds and you couldn't just pay for a do over on your race.  Reputation building is a much larger part of the game.  All of these issues make the game less forgiving and make choices matter more.  In my opinion all of them lead to making the game more fun.  

    I don't get why people want to play an RPG without without choices.  The more choices that matter the more fun most RPGs are.  Hell names matter.  Why not just have people pick "Tank" and respec between tank classes for gold?

    • 62 posts
    May 17, 2020 10:56 AM PDT

    I hope that when they allow us to respect Mastery points, that it is on an individual spell/ability basis and not just wipe out all points completely and make you reselect which options you want.

    For example, you invested into a Tier 3 mastery on a certain ability, but wish to have those 9 points refunded because placing them in another area better fits your play style.  That option would be one cost, but if you wanted to reduce your ability down to Tier 1 after already reducing down to Tier 2 that would be a higher cost. and so on.. and so forth.

    If I have to respec and pick every single spell/ability I want to invest in every single time, then I will be one very annoyed ranger!

    • 817 posts
    May 17, 2020 2:47 PM PDT

    DaveBowers said:

    If I have to respec and pick every single spell/ability I want to invest in every single time, then I will be one very annoyed ranger!

    That is the greatest observation on respeccing I have seen so far.  Depending on how large of a mastery tree they make it would certainly be very annoying to spend hundreds of points in a row.  Opps I miss clicked, let me respec again!  The silver lining to me backing the losing side of respecs.   

    Might as well just let people upload a template from the internet though, gotta make it nice and easy for them.  "Fizzle's L33t Fire spec" has been uploaded over 10,000 times, rebalancing anyone?

    • 1291 posts
    May 17, 2020 4:17 PM PDT

    They have said they don't expect players to be able to respec very many times.  He mentioned that it will be an opportunity for players to make a change but it's not intended to be something that happens over and over again.  So even if it is clearing ALL the mastery points it isn't like you'll be doing that every week.  It'll be a limitted amount of times in the life of a character.  At least that's how I interpreted what he said in the stream.

    • 194 posts
    May 17, 2020 4:17 PM PDT

    Jobeson said:

    justdrop said:

    Rigidity is not what makes WoW Classic fun. It was requiring more than just showing up to get a free epic, actually working with people to achieve a goal.

    I don't get why people want to play an RPG without without choices.

    I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is that the OP and others are for limiting choice by desiring to force people to STAY with a specialization. I'm fine with a cost (scaling or fixed) to allow for some flexibility. I'm against forcing people to stick with a build that may cause them to not be taken in raids. WoW succeeded BECAUSE of the flexibilities it had over its predecessors.


    This post was edited by justdrop at May 17, 2020 4:19 PM PDT
    • 1291 posts
    May 17, 2020 4:33 PM PDT

    There are no skill trees, there are no specializations.  There are only masteries.  You can choose to master A skill/spell.  If you choose later that you don't think you'll be using that skill/spell as often as you thought you would, at that point you choose a different skill/spell to start adding mastery points to.  

    We do not know how long it will take to earn/find mastery points yet.  That is the only question at this point...just how long will it take you to get enough mastery points to master a new skill after changing your mind.  We'll probably find that out during alpha and it'll be tweeked I'm sure.

    • 194 posts
    May 17, 2020 5:06 PM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    There are no skill trees, there are no specializations.  There are only masteries.

    Whether it's called a mastery or a blood fart means next to nothing. The discussion is about functionality.

    • 817 posts
    May 17, 2020 5:38 PM PDT

    Why should mastery choices be the only choice in the game without consequences?

     

    Edit: Well seems the new interview with Joppa refers to mastery as a talent system while leveling.  Guessing the meta will be strong in Pantheon. 

     

    Yeah, I'm gonna need you to go ahead and respec into arcane for this raid.  That would be great...


    This post was edited by Jobeson at May 17, 2020 6:05 PM PDT
    • 1291 posts
    May 17, 2020 6:03 PM PDT

    justdrop said:

    Ranarius said:

    There are no skill trees, there are no specializations.  There are only masteries.

    Whether it's called a mastery or a blood fart means next to nothing. The discussion is about functionality.

    It does make a difference because it seems like a lot of people are getting skill trees confused with the system in this game.  This is not the type of system where you spend a ton of points to get to the top of some skill tree.  Each skill/spell is individual.  

    • 817 posts
    May 17, 2020 6:30 PM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    It does make a difference because it seems like a lot of people are getting skill trees confused with the system in this game.  This is not the type of system where you spend a ton of points to get to the top of some skill tree.  Each skill/spell is individual.  

     

    Joppa refers to masteries "similar to a talent system while leveling" https://youtu.be/WlMJ14Tn2yY from Pantheon Plus.  While you are right you could have 1 fire, 1 frost, 1 arcane spell learned I doubt they will synergize well.  I would say the Mastery system is probably more like diablo 2, except you can keep gaining skill points to have everything (like a hacker in Diablo2 could)  And you know, you can respec which I guess is like the new Diablo 2.

    Instead of the MMORPG having Player Characters like in RPGs.  We follow the other MMOs and only look at the player.  It doesn't need to make sense as long as they have the easiest path. 


    This post was edited by Jobeson at May 17, 2020 6:38 PM PDT
    • 12 posts
    May 18, 2020 6:32 AM PDT
    I started out reading this thread with the mindset of respecs once a week or month along with perhaps losing 20-30% of your accumulated points in the process (or even deleveling you so that you can “relearn” your new mastery).

    But now that I’ve read to the end it sounds more like this is just enhancements to singular abilities that you most value at that point in time. As you level up and gain new abilities your focus may change. I prefer choices to have consequences and lasting meaning but also prefer them to stop short of punishing people. Being able to earn these mastery points indefinitely, coupled with a single hotbar sounds to me like a happy medium ground and manageable scenario.
    • 903 posts
    May 18, 2020 9:39 AM PDT
    Respec'ing should exist but not be frequent. MMOs and games in general often do a terrible job of adequately explaining skill choices and almost never convey how a skill looks or feels (which can be important if it doesn't fit with the character's concept). We're basically buying something without getting to test it first. And while we can always get more points, we need a respec to be able to undo an upgrade we may end up not liking.

    From a lore standpoint, a respec could be a visit to a mentor/guru who evaluates you and guides you on a new path.
    • 817 posts
    May 18, 2020 9:57 AM PDT
    I love how people often defend respeccing as needing to undo one bad choice, but the masses call for a full respec so they can do a 180 on their build, totally not to minmax into the meta.

    I don't want respecs and promote the undoing of one bad choice. It doesn't need to be all or nothing.
    • 1291 posts
    May 18, 2020 10:11 AM PDT

    The more I think about it the more I lean toward the "unlearning the mastery of a skill" option.  But, I'm excited to see what the dev's have in mind.  


    This post was edited by Ranarius at May 18, 2020 10:11 AM PDT
    • 1281 posts
    May 18, 2020 2:08 PM PDT

    Jobeson said: I love how people often defend respeccing as needing to undo one bad choice, but the masses call for a full respec so they can do a 180 on their build, totally not to minmax into the meta. I don't want respecs and promote the undoing of one bad choice. It doesn't need to be all or nothing.

    Wanting full respects after every minor game change so they can fully min/max is exactly why many people want respecing. They think this is like Diablo or games like that.

    I see respecing as something you may do once if you just didn't know what you were doing the first time around, not something you casually do after every patch like it's no big deal and just how to win. And I fear allowing respecing will lead to this.

    Ranarius said:

    The more I think about it the more I lean toward the "unlearning the mastery of a skill" option.  But, I'm excited to see what the dev's have in mind.  

    Yep, I recommend that idea because it does give you flexability if you made a mistake but also prevent people from becoming totally different characters in a split second. I think it means that players the ability to make minor incremental changes rather than a full blown restart, which to me fits better into the game tenents of challege and long term, thoughtful planning.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at May 18, 2020 2:17 PM PDT
    • 453 posts
    May 20, 2020 12:26 PM PDT

    Im all for respecing, should not be easy but just the simple fact that things like guilds change and sometimes what’s required from the guildies changes with that. Content changes expansion to expansion as well. Im getting old and have a very busy life and dont have time to reroll a new char every time this happens. I plan on playing 1 or 2 chars at most and the last thing I need to to be ruled out because Im not speced right. MMOs are fluid and to some extent builds also need to be fluid. 

     

    EDIT: My main MMO right now is ESO and another reason for respec. I got board of a build and having no time to play many chars. I respeced to a new build, that gave me different play style. Instead of walking away from ESO. I am still subbed to that game because I could do so. Think of someone that comes back to Pantheon after being away for a couple of expansion. Logs into their char and cant get teams because they are using an out of date build and the first thing they are presented with is. Reroll a new char. Thats a hard pill to swallow for returning players as well. 


    This post was edited by Nanfoodle at May 20, 2020 12:33 PM PDT
    • 817 posts
    May 20, 2020 3:15 PM PDT
    Why would they be forced to make a new character rather than to progress in a different direction? Not being the perfect meta doesn't mean you can't play the game. It doesn't mean you can't do the quests that gain you mastery points or join any number of camps. If your only reason to play is to join a minmax raid guild from that won't be an option for most people with only contested raids in game. You think the best in slot everything, wake up at 3am to raid, 90% attendance, no lifer types will take someone who just got back to the game because you are specced to the fotm? If there are guilds raiding trash mobs who demand a perfect meta spec telling you how to play your character than they are just full of themselves.

    You are looking at a system where you will probably have 500-1000 points to gain and if you quit then come back with 300/1000 why would a new character be the way to go? You just continue growing what you have unlocked as you play the game.
    • 453 posts
    May 20, 2020 3:37 PM PDT
    Just because my points are not valid to you, does not mean they are not valid. So min maxers opinions don't matter? How does my want to be flexible in my build effect your desire to have a static build. Just don't use that option and let people who enjoy that do so. Won't change how you play.
    • 817 posts
    May 20, 2020 7:49 PM PDT
    It does change how people play, it's like saying pay to win games don't change how you play since you don't have to buy anything. Of course it impacts the game.

    Minmaxing doesn't stop with mastery respecs, why would pantheon stop with mastery only? They might, but if the argument is valid it should work across the board.

    Change your race to the preferred minmax, more damage, health, resists, etc is all that matters, wow does it afterall

    Change your factions no reason choices should matter, it was easier to kill them back then for loot, but now it's easier to use their vendors. All that work you spent tanking their faction could have been spent building it up.

    Change your gear, as in your sword is now a mace, why work towards having two different items?

    Change your name, the easiest option aka the meta is to steal named spawns for loot. Just change your name when people start disliking you.

    Change your skills, tradeskill meta is important when you are squeezing every last stat out of the game. Just transfer your work over from smithing to cooking, both are options for an adventurer, you shouldn't be punished for your choices.

    Changing your class, all that work should be applied to any character you make.

    All of them have the same argument in favor of them being in the game. It's easier and I want my character to be the strongest possible.
    • 2644 posts
    May 20, 2020 8:44 PM PDT

    Jobeson, your gift for taking a small concern that has already been acknowledged as such by VR and turning it into a worst-case-scenario of Biblical proportions is nothing short of EPIC!

     

    I think I can assure you with great confidence that we are ALL aware that you are against a reset of Mastery Points :)

    • 817 posts
    May 20, 2020 9:46 PM PDT
    Lol perhaps I will log i to the title, Stop! It's already dead

    • 936 posts
    May 21, 2020 3:40 AM PDT

    The problem with wanting the strongest possible character spec is that everyone is expected to follow suit for that race/profession. If you dont have that build, you are not wanted. Having a non-reset spec means that you concentrate more on the way you want to play and not the way some spreadsheet says you should play.

    I like the idea of choices being permanent. The game is about the journey, not the destination. If you have the same type of characters playing exactly the same mechanics, it becomes a progression of number crunching. I personally think it is much more fun trying to get a non-perfect group through a sitting (and much more rewarding when you do) than running through easily because everyone is cookie-cut.

    The only time I would consider a re-spec to be valid is when you are nurfed, and then it should only be the area of concern that is refunded.

    I get that sometimes you can make a true mistake, so I might have a leaning to a re-spec that has an ever greater penalty to implement. But all in all, I would be happy with fixing my choices (as long as it is possible to see the implications of those choices). 

    • 1281 posts
    May 23, 2020 8:37 PM PDT

    chenzeme said:

    The problem with wanting the strongest possible character spec is that everyone is expected to follow suit for that race/profession. If you dont have that build, you are not wanted. Having a non-reset spec means that you concentrate more on the way you want to play and not the way some spreadsheet says you should play.

    I like the idea of choices being permanent. The game is about the journey, not the destination. If you have the same type of characters playing exactly the same mechanics, it becomes a progression of number crunching. I personally think it is much more fun trying to get a non-perfect group through a sitting (and much more rewarding when you do) than running through easily because everyone is cookie-cut.

    The only time I would consider a re-spec to be valid is when you are nurfed, and then it should only be the area of concern that is refunded.

    I get that sometimes you can make a true mistake, so I might have a leaning to a re-spec that has an ever greater penalty to implement. But all in all, I would be happy with fixing my choices (as long as it is possible to see the implications of those choices). 

    Part of this concern too is the amount of character customization. In EQ, a level 50 Warrior was a level 50 Warrior, there wasn't really any way to screw up.

    As games go on and allow more character choices there are more chances for players to make mistakes with how they spec out characters. The first time I saw this in a game was Shadowbane. People re-rolled characters constantly to just reallocate stat points to get the "perfect build". Being a PvP game, that made casual players like myself unable to compete because I simply did not want to play that way.

    Pantheon is sort of going down the road of "specing" or "templating" as I call it. But as Joppa pointed out, you will eventually be able to get enough Mastery points to max all of your abilities. Even if you take a different route with your char that the perfect build you should eventually be able to get back on track. With that said, respecing probably won't be needed.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at May 23, 2020 8:38 PM PDT
    • 839 posts
    May 24, 2020 2:18 AM PDT

    How would people feel if a re spec means back to zero points and have to gain the specialisations through xp (or whatever it ends up being) all over again.

     

    Sounds a bit brutal..


    This post was edited by Hokanu at May 24, 2020 4:46 AM PDT