@iksar
If anything I think the players will get to know each other after awhile and know who is good...and who isn't. So it won't require LFG'ing a player with X ability mastered. You will just know who to group with and who not to group with.
Granted, that doesn't do much for the first few months of gameplay while players are still making a name for themselves...but then I don't expect the low to mid lvl content to be as difficult anyway so it shouldn't matter as much.
Iksar said:Yeah, the system isn't a boon to encouraging readily reaching out and making new friends/playing with new players. And it really took some of the hope out of the sails of challenging gameplay (not just at the end but the whole leveling journey).
Probably true as far as the challenge... I can still be hopeful even though what we have seen leaves something to be desired as far as difficulty in many cases.
It has a lot to do with how it is tuned and what gives exp...I'm hoping there is no equivelent to "light blue/green" conned mobs giving exp and only what would essentially be dark blue and higher mobs (as far as level range in comparison to your own) that give exp. At the same point single groups should really struggle with 1 yellow conned mob. It is all in how it is balanced as far as that goes. Though that is easier said than done.
I think the making friends part comes on its own when you are required to group. I'm not to worried about that. Especially if they end up with the eharmony of LFG finder that brad talked so much about...though we haven't heard anything about the group finder lately.
Sign me up for '"Yes" on player respecs. I might want to try something new or I might think something is good but it turns out it is not or VR might nerf/buff something and change the build I want to use.
I have no problem with characters taking me months, years, or literally forever (best choice) to max out, but that kind of means it is too much effort to rebuild a character if I see a better path.
Jobeson said: Philo, that is exactly what I am pushing for with mastery. If you messed up so bad you need to all but start over, carry over your mastery points through progeny for a respec.
This should really matter too much, you shouldn't be able to mess up so badly to need to start over, so you spent a few point somewhere you should have, just earn the point and spend it where you should have.
Also at lower levels the chars will potentially be very individualised but as you get higher they will become all the same.
What I mean is you can spend what ever points in your own way but once you reach max level you will be all gaining points and then spending them on your char to fill in the missing skills. so it will be like a dead tree, all the roots a the individual branches you and everyone else takes and over time they will merge into a trunk where everyone in the class will have the same skill set. Different will be kow you play the char and what skills you use in battle.
List like AA points in EQ, when you first start getting them you spend them in the way you play your char, over time once the importones to you have been brought, you start buying the ones were not so important so at the end all players in your class if they earnt the max AA point would have spent them on the same skills.
This should really matter too much, you shouldn't be able to mess up so badly to need to start over, so you spent a few point somewhere you should have, just earn the point and spend it where you should have.
This is my main issue...I'm not even sure why it's a big deal at all. We know we can continue to earn mastery points while leveling and after max level...so really it's no big deal. It might take longer if you changed your mind about where you put a point but it's definitely not the end of the world. Just go play the game more until you earn another mastery point or 5.
Ranarius said:This is my main issue...I'm not even sure why it's a big deal at all. We know we can continue to earn mastery points while leveling and after max level...so really it's no big deal. It might take longer if you changed your mind about where you put a point but it's definitely not the end of the world. Just go play the game more until you earn another mastery point or 5.
Again it depends on how its balanced. If it takes a player a month or more to max out 1 ability...and there are 30 or 50 abilities to max it will take years.
I see buyers remorse being a thing with this system. That is why they want to allow respecs. If you could simply earn the next ability in a week or 2 it would be different and respecs wouldn't be a concern.
I guess I don't know how to explain how I feel about it very clearly. People should enjoy the game for what it is. If there are respecs great, if they get very expensive very quickly, great, if not, great...I think I just get tired of people worrying about being the best of the best. I have spent the last 25 years playing games and specifically avoiding the most popular classes, builds, etc and I've gotten along great. People get so worried that someone else is doing 1% more dps than them and it's just not worth being upset about. It really takes the enjoyment out of a game when all you're worried about is "did I spec correctly to get a group?"
In a game like this you will be getting groups based on your reputation, your comittment to the group, your ability to react, your attitude, how often you go afk without announcing it to the group, how often you rage quit. All of those are going to be bigger factors than anything else.
I guess I lean toward getting rid of mastery points all together at this point. Even though I think they're a fun idea they seem to cause so much worry and stress for a huge percentage of players...and I just don't get it.
And for those that are worried about not being able to complete content because you spec'd wrong, that's just ridiculous. The devs are smart enough to avoid such a disasterous system. "Oh no, I put a point in the wrong thing, I can't group in dungeons anymore!" ... can you imagine that even being possible? I can not. Maybe I just have too much faith in the people putting this game together.
Ranarius said:I guess I don't know how to explain how I feel about it very clearly. People should enjoy the game for what it is. If there are respecs great, if they get very expensive very quickly, great, if not, great...I think I just get tired of people worrying about being the best of the best. I have spent the last 25 years playing games and specifically avoiding the most popular classes, builds, etc and I've gotten along great. People get so worried that someone else is doing 1% more dps than them and it's just not worth being upset about. It really takes the enjoyment out of a game when all you're worried about is "did I spec correctly to get a group?"
The issue is that from what we have seen thus far, masteries provide abilities substantial changes/benefits. It's not a matter of 1% more this or that. I am mostly concerned about this game providing the promised challenge, and I can't see balancing this being anything but a nightmare. If it is so easy that any spec can get by then I really don't see how they will tune the difficulty anywhere close to what could be considered challenging (save for maybe end game content, which they have stated they wanted to avoid to help get rid of "endgame" mentality).
I'd be for them getting rid of it too, sure.
Iksar said:What is the beneficial gameplay gain of locking players into (potentially) poor decisions for long periods of time?
Longevity factored into the decision making process for your character.
Much like the matrix, MMO's require a little sting for bad choices to make the game world feel natural and subsequently a naturally rewarding experience when you succeed at something. There must be consequences on some stuff for it to even matter. The second it doesnt matter you've lost important meta that you can use to influence all sorts of different game loops. Its the same type of rules that you expect for food, drink and weight requirements and consequences... Some limit that if exceeded has a negative consequence.
Seriously though it sort of forces everyone to take their time when making any decision on stats/skill trees without considering all aspects of character progression more carefully. I am guessing we will see some sort of skill/aa type tree at some point. Whether before hand or at launch in game.
...Just my opinion
Ranarius said:I guess I don't know how to explain how I feel about it very clearly. People should enjoy the game for what it is. If there are respecs great, if they get very expensive very quickly, great, if not, great...I think I just get tired of people worrying about being the best of the best. I have spent the last 25 years playing games and specifically avoiding the most popular classes, builds, etc and I've gotten along great. People get so worried that someone else is doing 1% more dps than them and it's just not worth being upset about. It really takes the enjoyment out of a game when all you're worried about is "did I spec correctly to get a group?"
In a game like this you will be getting groups based on your reputation, your comittment to the group, your ability to react, your attitude, how often you go afk without announcing it to the group, how often you rage quit. All of those are going to be bigger factors than anything else.
I guess I lean toward getting rid of mastery points all together at this point. Even though I think they're a fun idea they seem to cause so much worry and stress for a huge percentage of players...and I just don't get it.
And for those that are worried about not being able to complete content because you spec'd wrong, that's just ridiculous. The devs are smart enough to avoid such a disasterous system. "Oh no, I put a point in the wrong thing, I can't group in dungeons anymore!" ... can you imagine that even being possible? I can not. Maybe I just have too much faith in the people putting this game together.
*IF* the abilities design is perfect in every way then it won't be an issue...
If it turns out that it takes quite some time to get mastery points and I put 20 into raising 2 skills to max mastery and then it turns out I hardly ever use those 2 skills it will be very 'irksome' that I could be enjoying level 1 and 2 mastery in several other skills instead. That progression will always feel 'wasted' until max level.
In the general case, we *want* mastery choices to be meaningful, yes? So, assuming they *are* meaningful, when we make a choice that we regret, it will be annoying.
For it to be inconsequential, spending mastery points would have to be relatively inconsequential, which we don't want.
I just don't see the problem with letting people respec every level, say. At low level that we be quite regular, but at higher level that will, hopefully, be a week or more. It avoids the problem/complication/confusion/time of people respeccing for every session (or encounter!) and avoids the negatives of 'buyers regret', too.
If we will get all mastery points eventually then it doesn't matter either way. If mastery isn't so pivotal to the performance of the class, it doesn't matter either way. So why not allow it?
I understand and support the idea of decisions having consequences, but since we can change our currently memorised abilities at any time, I don't see why changing which are enhanced every level would be over the top.
philo said: I guess the game tenants are loose guidelines and not set in stone. It's not horrible that we go away from the "all actions have consequences" thing. It makes me wonder where the line is though? How far is to far to deviate from the vision/tenants?
Are you sure you're not just picking a tenet that you think backs up how you feel about the issue? I'm really not sure that tenet is intended for such aspects. To give the full text: -
"An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses"
It's talking about needing to play actively in order to obtain rewards and progress, not a desire to see all choices permanently binding.
Anyway, choosing your character progression path is hardly an 'action' and the choice *will* have consequences for up to a week, if my method is followed. Even if the issue did fall under the tenet, I don't think it breaks it or even bends it very far to have very occasionally redos.
Is being able to change your hotbar betraying the tenet? You can do that before every combat. Should your hotbar choice be more permanent or risk breaking the tenet?
Should you not be able to bank items? In some games you can't. Maybe if you choose to take one piece of gear instead of another, that's a consequence you should live with and not be able to change later?
Should death be permanent if you really want people to suffer the consequences of their actions?
I'm not trying to be facetious or sarcastic, I'm trying to explain how I think some things, including mastery allocation, don't really fall under that tenet or even if it could be said they do, that doesn't mean they always make the game worse.
I don't think much is gained from making the mastery mechanic utterly rigid.
I could pick the tenet: -
"A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige"
and then argue that if you make what you feel to be the 'wrong' choices over mastery allocation and are forced to live with the regretful decision, you will feel your character progression has *not* increased your power and prestige and that *that* is breaking a tenet.
Semantics, I know. The point is, what harm does it do, really? What would be the good in about making mastery allocation unchangeable? What would be the bad in allowing reallocation once a week or so?
P.S. I should say, like many things that I've argued around in these forums, whatever VR decides I'm sure will be fine. If there is no changing mastery choices *shrug* fine. I don't think there's much to be gained from us second-guessing their Vision and I enjoy discussing these things as long as it doesn't turn into a negative argument.
I think folks are worrying too much that any concept that sounds like it might bend a tenet is going to distort The Vision and chip away at the game we want to see. We need to remember that each of us has a subjective interpretation of what that Vision is and of what we want the game to be like.
In the end surely it's best just have to have some faith in VR and the community and try not to be negative and destructive.
P.P.S. I'm not saying that's what @Philo was/is doing! Just making a related point and furthering the discussion... and perhaps digressing too much... sorry, if so!
I'd be fine with respeccing. Make it either something gradual. Essentially it's like moving a slider bar a smidge each day so you can eventually 'train' you character to their new path life or.... I would set a time limit on how often it can be done. After 24 hours, then after a week, then after a month, then after 3 months and then keep it consistent at 3 months. You shouldn't be locked into something if you decide to change up things in your life or play style, but also don't make it super quick to do a 180 with much frequency.
I see a lot of overly optimistic posts from people that want 0 ability to change skills. I fear these people aren't realizing that the leveling in this game isn't going to be something to be taken lightly like in most modern MMOs. When it takes you 2 years to get to level 50 and you realize that you didn't want to put 2 points into that one ability that you never use and could REALLY use those points in an ability that you didn't understand how to use a year ago... but now you just have to start a new character and hope to not make anothe rmistake over the next 2 years - that is when you get people quitting. This isn't WoW where you can level a character in a month and decide to create a new character because you don't like something about the one you were just playing... if you discover something you don't like about your character, you're stuck with it - if that thing people don't like happens to be a mistake that they made when given a "choice" and they don't have the option to change that choice, I promise, people will beg the GMs to help you go back, and when the GMs say "sorry, that is like that forever now" people will quit; and regardless of how you feel about having other people playing an MMO that don't share the same opinion as you, an MMORPG ceases to be an MMORPG without the "Massive Multiplayer" part... then the game loses subscriptions, then it goes free to play with micro transactions, then just free to play garbage. As much as players want this to be a niche game, we need to appeal to the majority to maintain funding.
Darch said:...but now you just have to start a new character and hope to not make anothe rmistake over the next 2 years - that is when you get people quitting...
This is the point that I continue to argue against. It's the fear that something like this can even happen in the first place, and it can not. They have made it clear that you will continue to be able to earn mastery points indefinitely. So, worst case scenario, those 2 points that you put in the wrong place would not cause you to start your character over, they would cause you to go earn 2 more mastery points.
Again though, I am not totally against or for the respec idea. I just think we need to keep the facts in the argument. The fact is, it's impossible to be forced to restart if you spend a point and then change your mind.
P.S. I imagine there will be a market for BUYING master points from other players as well. Remember that you can craft them and trade them. So spending gold/plat will be another way to earn mastery points. For some that might even be a cheaper option than respecing.
@dispo I dont think I'm perceiving that tenant differently than intended.
Are you taking it to much at face value and thinking that action specifically requires interacting or involvement through your character to be considered an action?
Part of that tenant is not offering systems such as rested exp bonus or other benefits for not playing.
The other part of that tenant, the one I pointed out when I broke it down, is that there has to be consequences for a players actions. A player shouldn't be able to act or make decisions without consequences.
Do you consider choosing abilities to not be an action ? Shouldn't there be consequences?
I'm actually not hard nosed on this and think "very" limited respecs is ok...but to think that it doesnt go against the tenant as it is written is just incorrect.
philo said:Do you consider choosing abilities to not be an action ? Shouldn't there be consequences?
I'm actually not hard nosed on this and think "very" limited respecs is ok...but to think that it doesnt go against the tenant as it is written is just incorrect.
The consequences should fit the crime as best as possible. A new MMO player, someone not used to group emphasis MMOs and classes have rather specific and hard locked primary roles, those who find themselves at the mercy of "balancing", or the otherwise ignorant should face extremely harsh punishments of time just for that? If you make a mistake and die in the game you suffer a bit of exp loss, maybe 5-10% equating to maybe a few minutes to an hour of lost time, but here we are saying "you get to make one, maybe two mistakes and it will take days if not weeks or months before you can fix them at times." Being harshly restricted in "respecs" by imposing either massive periods of time between them or an extremely limited amount ever, seems like exessive consquence or punishment for little reason other than to be very harsh.
Every time I come back to these forums, I see posts about how the game needs to be extremely rigid. I understand the desire for difficulty, but the smallish community we have will end up killing the game before it even has a chance to attract more players with hard-line stances like this. Please consider the goal of trying to entice people who may have thought EQ too difficult and people who will not have known it at all.
Vanilla wow is now the biggest rival to wow, precisely because it added back difficulty, community, and a bit more rigidness. Rigidness has not been an option for a long time.
I am in favor of finding a middle ground that is not instant or near instantly forgetting everything. I thought of tying it to mastery points gained, perhaps one mastery point a day works better. 50 levels of focusing on one aspect immediately undone to max out an OP spec until it is nerfed is not a great system and goes against character growth.
Edit: I hate auto correct.