philo said:@TLogan If some of those alternative ways to play that you mention work, many of us will feel the devs have failed at providing challenging content.
You simply cant have a healer doing dps or a dps purposefully taking aggro if the content is difficult.
You mention eq2. Did you play 1st gen mmos heavily prior to the genre wide shift to make things easier that happened around 2002-2004? It is understandable that some of those tactics worked in eq2. I think that might be why there is a disconnect?
I think we all hope that Pantheon ends up being challenging as has been advertised. Not just with raids and boss mobs but in normal exp groups and standard content as well.
Eh it's just a different way to heal a lot of my dps proc'd heals so it worked. I'm hoping this game has some dps abilities esp. for druids that do the same, like short duration high dmg thorns that proc a heal when it wears off or something similar. Also if they're implementing combos or something alike that's another perfect opportunity to add a druid dd/dot with a proc heal/hot. It doesn't take away the challenge, still healing, but dpsing too. I did indeed play classic EQ and I want this to be just as challenging as you, I just want it to be more modern as far as healers go, they should be responsible for just that little bit more.
Jobeson said: A sight to see such as EQ, Eve, RuneScape, and other mmos which countless people enjoyed. It isn't a new idea to lock you into your choices. It isn't even that punishing since you can always expand into other directions.I would like to ask you again, why should race and skill points be locked in, but not mastery points? It is an arbitrary distinction between them. Why not let all warriors flip to ogres when their racial gets buffed? After all warriors "waste hundreds of hours only to find ... some balancing leaves them in the shadow of others in their class." Why not let people flip trade skills around for the same reason? If the threat of the masses complaining is all you need to dumb down the game why stop at mastery points?
Don't recall any of that in EQ, granted I stopped playing not long after Luclin.
Race is a mostly aesthetic choice that doesn't lock you out of any particular gameplay. Trade skills we don't know how they will work, IIRC the last we heard is that players might be able to change them or learn multiple.
Not sure why having strong class identities is considered dumbing down the game, compared to trying to break the 12/14 classes we have into 24/28 via sub-classes or alternate builds.
TLogan said:Eh it's just a different way to heal a lot of my dps proc'd heals so it worked. I'm hoping this game has some dps abilities esp. for druids that do the same, like short duration high dmg thorns that proc a heal when it wears off or something similar. Also if they're implementing combos or something alike that's another perfect opportunity to add a druid dd/dot with a proc heal/hot. It doesn't take away the challenge, still healing, but dpsing too.
We know the druid will have damage spells that proc a heal but I think you are back tracking and talking around the point.
If your role is a healer you can't prioritize ability points into damage at the expense of healing and expect to be successful in challenging content. If that healing ability that you upgrade happens to do a bit of extra damage, great...but thats not what you were talking about before.
You were talking about an alternative play style where the healer does dps at the expense of healing so that the mob dies quicker and the healing isn't needed.
That's ^ just not how it works unless the content is to easy. That is why some people questioned your view.
You back tracked a bit and provided a scenario where the class is designed around doing damage in order to heal which is going away from the original points you were making such as:
"If a druid will be a useless healer if he focuses mastery on snares/roots and dps? Let's not forget that the faster mob(s) die the less healing that will need to be done."
The point remains the same as before. Hopefully the content ends up being difficult. If it is and you focus your druids ability points on snares/roots and dps instead of healing you will likely end up having angry group members. But hey, at least you can respec...
I'll admit, I didn't read all the posts, but I wanted to make a quick comment about my opinion on re-speccing. I'm not a huge fan of being able to re-spec your character on a whim, but I can see the need for the option in general. I really enjoyed the way EQOA did it before they added some extra options later in it's life. That "way" was in the form of finding a really rare item called a "Rose of Renewal" and turning that in as part of a small quest for a respec of your class mastery points. I think this was cool and worked well. It allowed players who were comfortable with their specs that happened to find a RoR to sell it in the auction for a good amount of money, but also allowed the means for someone interested in re-specing their character to do so. It wasn't trivial by any means because (as I mentioned) it was really rare. I wouldn't mind an item like this in Pantheon.
philo said:TLogan said:Eh it's just a different way to heal a lot of my dps proc'd heals so it worked. I'm hoping this game has some dps abilities esp. for druids that do the same, like short duration high dmg thorns that proc a heal when it wears off or something similar. Also if they're implementing combos or something alike that's another perfect opportunity to add a druid dd/dot with a proc heal/hot. It doesn't take away the challenge, still healing, but dpsing too.
We know the druid will have damage spells that proc a heal but I think you are back tracking and talking around the point.
If your role is a healer you can't prioritize ability points into damage at the expense of healing and expect to be successful in challenging content. If that healing ability that you upgrade happens to do a bit of extra damage, great...but thats not what you were talking about before.
You were talking about an alternative play style where the healer does dps at the expense of healing so that the mob dies quicker and the healing isn't needed.
That's ^ just not how it works unless the content is to easy. That is why some people questioned your view.
You back tracked a bit and provided a scenario where the class is designed around doing damage in order to heal which is going away from the original points you were making such as:
"If a druid will be a useless healer if he focuses mastery on snares/roots and dps? Let's not forget that the faster mob(s) die the less healing that will need to be done."
The point remains the same as before. Hopefully the content ends up being difficult. If it is and you focus your druids ability points on snares/roots and dps instead of healing you will likely end up having angry group members. But hey, at least you can respec...
Well than I was severely misunderstood by you, I never said I shall not have to heal, I simply said if I focused more on the dps aspect of mastery theoretically I could add more dps to the group than othet druids, perhaps mastery of some dps abilities proc heals that didn't exist before. I simply said that I plan to be the healer that maximizes efficiency with some dps because that equates to less healing. I believe it was Iksar or something that said that my job is healing so I just can't do that I need to only heal.
To your earlier point about a dps taking aggro for a minute it's existed in most all games, and it should happen, but tanks are just too silly usually they would literally rather die than let a monk pop a disc and take aggro from an add for a minute using cooldowns and taking no damage just to fd it back into the tank. Just a shining example of what I'm talking about here.
TLogan said:Well than I was severely misunderstood by you, I never said I shall not have to heal, I simply said if I focused more on the dps aspect of mastery theoretically I could add more dps to the group than othet druids, perhaps mastery of some dps abilities proc heals that didn't exist before. I simply said that I plan to be the healer that maximizes efficiency with some dps because that equates to less healing. I believe it was Iksar or something that said that my job is healing so I just can't do that I need to only heal.
My point there is similar to Philo, if the game is not keeping healers occupied with healing/support when filling that role in a group then it will very likely not hold the challenge many of us have been led to believe Pantheon was shooting for (see the old Tower of the Reckless Magician part 2 streams and VRs comments when fighting Ghurka mobs). If a healer has the time and mana/resources to spare throwing out damage (let alone often) then healing as a job will tend to be fairly dull and simple, moreso if a healer can still perform while forgoing improvements toward healing abilities in favor of DPS and still be a reasonably capable healer.
In such a situation that DPS masteries still allow ample healing, then healing masteries are overkill. Likewise if "specing" DPS as a healer is somehow more efficient in group play than healing, that signals (to me) a real problem and lack of challenge.
Ya, I hope you have to heal basically all the time as a healer. There shouldnt be time for a healer to do much else in a single group scenario.
I think the tower of the reckless magician that Iksar points out was a good example.
...though we have heard CP say after that stream that it may have been over tuned and that the wizard getting one shotted multiple times may have been to extreme...which I completely disagree with.
That seems like the difficulty we should be shooting for. The low hitpoint classes should be getting 1 shotted by at lvl wizards and other burst damage mobs. If anything I feel like the mobs in a lot of the streams we have seen should be tuned harder. Single groups shouldn't be easily handling a yellow con.
But then I guess tuning/balancing difficulty is another discussion even if it does tie into how a player spends their ability points.
If I had to guess they will likely not live up to the "challenging" gameplay that has been advertised based on what we have seen and Tlogan will be right in that healers alloting ability points in areas other than healing will be efficient...i just hope that is not the case.
...that makes me want to have a conversation about balancing difficulty but I'll refrain in an attempt to not get to far off track...
Jobeson said: With how the spells can interact, the druid dotting the target may also lead to some nice synergy with another pc that keeps stunning or interrupting the target, reducing the overall damage it deals. It may only work with one other class with one other spell, but there are all sorts of possibilities for not simply focusing on throughput healing. The point is character permanence. Respeccng to unlock some OP charm at lvl 33 with 57 mastery points shouldn't be a thing. It is a role playing game and PCs should grow not reset. It is one of the worst trends of new MMOs.
Yay, I think you understand me a bit at least here Jobeson. I'm sorry you (other) guys, but in my opinion you're going against everything we are hoping to have with pantheon... A healer that just sits and cast heal, sit, heal, sit, heal is no where near what I'm looking for as far as challenge. I rather have to heal, knockback root an add, dot all mobs that aren't cc'd, heal, shield, heal, stun, root, heal, sit heal, synergize a nice dot/hot combo, heal, sit, etc. etc.. This doesn't make me forget my defined role of a healer. In my opinion just having to watch health bars and heal is very poor class design and far too easy. If you're looking to challenge us make all of us do more, more than ever before.
A side note anyone that is hoping for the ability to respec is also kind of trying to trivialize the game imo. I would rather have to restart a toon that I've spent 73 hours playing than to just be able to respec my mastery points.
I'll also add - If all a healer does is sit, heal, sit heal, then a bot can easily do that. The devs have specifically said, and laughed at the idea, that combat will be too interactive for a bot to do a good job (or a single person playing two characters). This implies that even a healer will have more to do than just sit, heal, sit heal.
Ranarius said:I'll also add - If all a healer does is sit, heal, sit heal, then a bot can easily do that. The devs have specifically said, and laughed at the idea, that combat will be too interactive for a bot to do a good job (or a single person playing two characters). This implies that even a healer will have more to do than just sit, heal, sit heal.
To be fair, even an EQ cleric had to *time* their sitting and standing and casting very carefully. It would have been hard to get a bot to do it. It was the perfect mix of pressurised and tedious ;^)
Having said that, I really hope that Pantheon has something more in store for the cleric.
In this, as in many other aspects, the difficulty for VR is to keep it feeling 'old school', but make innovations that transcend where it makes sense.
TLogan said:Yay, I think you understand me a bit at least here Jobeson. I'm sorry you (other) guys, but in my opinion you're going against everything we are hoping to have with pantheon... A healer that just sits and cast heal, sit, heal, sit, heal is no where near what I'm looking for as far as challenge. I rather have to heal, knockback root an add, dot all mobs that aren't cc'd, heal, shield, heal, stun, root, heal, sit heal, synergize a nice dot/hot combo, heal, sit, etc. etc.. This doesn't make me forget my defined role of a healer. In my opinion just having to watch health bars and heal is very poor class design and far too easy. If you're looking to challenge us make all of us do more, more than ever before.
Never suggested EQ healing of heal sit heal sit or anything remotely similar in simplicity. There is a time and place (group composition perhaps) where I would suspect a healer will need to occasionally throw out a root, damage spell, etc but for the most part those duties fall upon the tank role, DPS role, and the CC role. As a healer I feel healing should be 90% of the job, that is fighting your group's health bars. Much like how DPS is almost entirely concerned with dropping mob HP bars, tanks should be focused entirely on mitigation and keeping aggro, CC/Support should be controlling the rest.
That doesn't mean it has to be so simple as pressing a single heal or two over and over. From the looks of it the healing classes have all kinds of healing (and a number of support) tools, and I fully expect the game to require their usage beyond rare niche cases.
Might just be my opinion but if someone wants to play a healer but spend a good portion of their time not healing, then they don't really want to play a healer.
There was nothing more frustrating to me as a healer than when people would say stupid stuff like "Quit rooting that mob, I can tank it just fine" Lol...rooting the mob prevented huge amounts of damage, but the tank wanted to feel strong and tank 2, 3, or 4 things at a time rather than have them CC'd. Silly tanks. There is more than 1 way to keep your group alive.
I think the complexity really comes into play by having well defined roles and that the actual complex part of the whole experience is the dance that the group goes through to make all of their own functions work together towards a common goal.
More complex individual player game play isnt necessary for a difficult and enjoyable experience for the group.
IMO the more individual-centric complexity that is added, the more likely the lines are to blur between roles and ultimately leading towards more solo centered content.
Edit: I am neither for nor against, respeccing per se. But if the ability to respec will exist, it should come at some cost to the player (not just currency). Perhaps a quest line that rewards you with the ability reset a certain number of points or something along that line. Something that is logical to the whole process and in tune with the game lore. Emptying your mind of all your current knowledge and replacing it with something else should not be a matter of opening a scroll and feeding some coins to the server.
How would you all feel about a forget system for mastery points instead of a respec? Say one to one with the mastery points you gain.
You level up root level 3 and spent the required 1, 3, 9 points on it. Deciding root is not nearly as useful in 95% of your groups as you are now BFFs with an enchanter, you flag root level 3 to be forgotten. Now that you flagged to forget a skill you will gain one extra mastery point for every mastery point you earn. On that first mastery point earned root level 3 becomes root level 2 and you are locked into forgetting root level 3. After earning the 9th mastery point the third level root is fully forgotton and the final bonus point is refunded to be spent elsewhere. You regain the option to flag any mastery skill to be forgotten.
A forgetting mechanic prevents instant respecs preserving the verisimilitude. It focuses the game on the idea of growth and change while being more forgiving than the oldschool systems with no way back.
Jobeson said:How would you all feel about a forget system for mastery points instead of a respec? Say one to one with the mastery points you gain.
You level up root level 3 and spent the required 1, 3, 9 points on it. Deciding root is not nearly as useful in 95% of your groups as you are now BFFs with an enchanter, you flag root level 3 to be forgotten. Now that you flagged to forget a skill you will gain one extra mastery point for every mastery point you earn. On that first mastery point earned root level 3 becomes root level 2 and you are locked into forgetting root level 3. After earning the 9th mastery point the third level root is fully forgotton and the final bonus point is refunded to be spent elsewhere. You regain the option to flag any mastery skill to be forgotten.A forgetting mechanic prevents instant respecs preserving the verisimilitude. It focuses the game on the idea of growth and change while being more forgiving than the oldschool systems with no way back.
Interesting idea!
@jobeson
Maybe "forgetting" points could also cost gold? The only advantage to respecing with gold is that it helps in reducing inflation. Simply forgetting skills as you propose eliminates that.
We might be over reacting to the "respecing for gold" system depending on how they scale it. If no player on any server can respec more than twice ever because the cost ramps up so fast then I could be in favor of the "respec for gold" system (and the second time you respec would be similar to purchasing one of the most expensive items in the game type of cost). If you allow a player to respec 3 or 4 or 5 times before it gets to expensive that makes the decision to respec not matter enough imho.
What's the point of locking players into a single race?
Edit: Do you think players should live with their faction choices? I mean sure they chose to ruin a faction. They may have even thought it was a good idea at the time, but now they want to be friends with those NPCs. Why should they be forced to waste time rebuilding it? How about they just pay some gold and they can invert their negative faction into exactly what they want?
Throwing out player permanence is silly every time it is applied to something other than a talent tree. It is just as silly there, but people got used to it.
Iksar said:What is the beneficial gameplay gain of locking players into (potentially) poor decisions for long periods of time?
-All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences.
I get that VR wants to give people a pass if they feel like they screwed up. Giving them "A" pass...singular...seems reasonable to me. Allowing multiple respecs makes your actions seem like they don't have consequences as stated in the tenants. Though I also see the argument that allowing any respec goes against the tenants but...it is what it is at this point.
Jobeson said:What's the point of locking players into a single race?
Edit: Do you think players should live with their faction choices? I mean sure they chose to ruin a faction. They may have even thought it was a good idea at the time, but now they want to be friends with those NPCs. Why should they be forced to waste time rebuilding it? How about they just pay some gold and they can invert their negative faction into exactly what they want?
Throwing out player permanence is silly every time it is applied to something other than a talent tree. It is just as silly there, but people got used to it.
Those things don't dramatically alter a players game experience from one hour to the next and they don't really tend to interfere with how desireable someone is in a group. God help this game if we can't just look for any given class within a role when trying to make a group and have to sit around and weed out players by their build. Making grouping even harder by making players even more choosey just so some others can pretend they are unique is a poor idea.
Riahuf22 said:If you bring in something like Mastery Points, but than make it possible to Max out your mastery in every ability, you are kind of defeating the point of have such a system anyway, make it to where you can gain mastery points and you get only gain a limitied amount that way maxxing out an ability one makes that ability really strong but also slowly but surely making it to where if you keep maxing out abilities you make it to where certain abilities can't reach their highest potency.
It allows Builds without a talent system to actually exsist, also making a mastery system but still able to max all out abilities just sounds boring, and makes it to where you added in a system that at the end isn't even doing anything, so why even make it if it can be simply bypssed with time.
My understanding is that the mastery point system was more to decrease the clutter in the codex. In EverQuest you had a bunch of spells under different names with similar functions, and obviously the , , etc. So mastery points ensured you had a selection of spells, and as you level up those spells will become better, and then instead of the ranking system, you put masteries in it to upgrade
Iksar said:God help this game if we can't just look for any given class within a role when trying to make a group and have to sit around and weed out players by their build. Making grouping even harder by making players even more choosey just so some others can pretend they are unique is a poor idea.
That will happen whether they offer a respec or not with this ability point system.
Iksar said:philo said:That will happen whether they offer a respec or not with this ability point system.
Very likely, yes. I still hope they at the very least limit what abilities allow mastery points to those that fit their primary role or non-combat utility at the most.
Interesting thought. That's not what we were shown in the shaman stream. They would have to scale it way back for that to happen.
Even then, I'm not sure it solves the issue of having to look for players to group with that have points spent on specific abilities? Maybe there would be less of a chance that would be necessary? Unsure.