Forums » Pantheon Classes

Class philosophy

    • 4 posts
    May 5, 2020 2:55 PM PDT

    Hey guys..

    I've checked the classes again and I'm wondering about some ideas.

    We have the class Summoner. How meaningful is it to call a class Summoner, if other classes also summon something. For example the Wizard summons familiars. And, for me, the Summoner is also a Wizard. If a Summoner cross a small village and a farmer boy is crying "look mom, there is a Wizard", and the Summoner says "no boy, I'm not a Wizard, I'm a Summoner". It sounds strange. Like somebody says he's not a craftman, he is carpenter.

    Both, Wizard and Summoner have a similar setting or background. In other fantasy worlds we would call them Guild Mages;  former students who learned in a univesity or academy or wherver. Witches, Druids and other wild/primitive casters cast with emotions or wrath or something else and they have maybe a connection to the elements or nature, like a priest/cleric to gods/light. Wizards and Summoners study and write everything in their spellbooks.

    Both cast with elementary spells. It's for me difficult to understand, why a Summoner who summons fire elements and also cast direct fire dps spells can't cast a fire spell of the Wizard. I'm very sure, both classes have fire skills which make exactly the same, like a simple Bolt or Shock. Just the the numbers of damage, the cast time and the mana costs are different.

    For me, both classes are too close. It could be one single class. I don't talk about role or gameplay. I mean the background. I prefer that different classes have not just different roles. They should have different setting, where they get their power.

    Why does the Summoner not use demonic power and summons demons and casts corrupted elementary spells, or the Wizard uses  arcane power and renamed him in an Arcanist, and the Summoner renamed in Elementarist. This would make both classes different, without changing role or gameplay.

     

    A similar thought I have with Cleric and Paladin. The settings of both are heavy armor, mace and shield, holy light, melee attacks and heals. The description of the Paladin says he is a former Cleric. So, now he is not anymore a Cleric? He's lost or given up his sanctification? If I think about the christian church. A Priest IS a Cleric or Clergy. If he became a Bishop, he is still a Cleric/Clergy. The word Cleric is not for a special profession or a title. It means all ordained or consecrated cult servants. And everything what I read about the Pantheon Paladin is, he sounds like a Cleric. And what a Cleric and Paladin tell the same farmer boy who don't know anything about these classes what they are? The Cleric will tell him "We both are members of the same church and fight in the front in heavy armor and  heal our companions. But I can heal better and he can fights better. Cause that I'm a Cleric and he is a Paladin." ? - *Geralt of Rivia: "hhhmmm"

    I really know, these classes are relics of old school RPGs and D&D and we are here waiting for an old school ORPG. But, also 20 years ago in Everquest I thought one of these both classes is too much.

     

    And don't ask me what I think about the Monk. Somebody whou fights with punches and kicks while everybody around him use magic and two meter long swords.

     

    Yes, In a fantasy world everthing is possible and you can define what you want. You can say that 5m tall giant without pointed ears but long tusks is in my fantasy world an typical elf. But for me, also a fantasy world needs an inner logic.

    What you guys think about? Just discussion. No blaming/whining.


    This post was edited by BelRoi at May 5, 2020 2:57 PM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    May 5, 2020 4:09 PM PDT

    I think you're seeing too much in regards of "classes must be completely different" instead of remembering the class matrix is EQ inspired which was somehow, D&D inspired.

     

    It's not necessary that every class end up fundamentaly different from each other. It's important in gameplay, but when two classes use a similar origin of magic but declined in different usage, then it's logical that the forces they wield keep a common identity.

     

    The ranger and the druid both will use some kind of nature magic, but one will use it as a tool and the other as it's main force.

    The cleric and paladin will both use divine magic, but one is supporting others while the other has (explained in roleplay in the class section I think) dropped passivity and embraced a more offensive usage of this magic.

    The wizard and the summoner both use elemental magic, but one wields raw forces into destructive spells while the other studies how to bind them to his bidding and controle their shape, role and efficiency (while also summoning boats).

     

    I would even dare to say that the enchanter and the bard both use mind magic, but one is focusing about controlling others and exploiting the raw and brute energy, while the other will acess it throught songs, music and inspiring vocals.

     

    It's to me, even more interesting to make the same magic beeing used differently by two classes than forcing some kind of flashy visual identity just to please players at the cost of having to rip your lore everytime you want to add another class because it means you need to dig another visual identity source of magic/power. We don't even know if there will be "demons" in the common sense we use about it in pantheon as for now it seems to be following different setups than the classic "evil exterior invaders".

     

    I hope there will be a day a class using shaman magic in another way and more direct combat oriented because I think it's the only one missing.

     

    I don't know what you have against the monk, I suppose it's something you compare to using a sword in a gunfight, but due to the fantasy setting a monk has supernatural power and prowess over beeing just mike tison punching a fully armored guy.

     

    About terminology, TBH you shouldn't report irl things on game and try to tie them. The cleric is simply a priest able to sustain combats and the paladin a frontline melee oriented cleric, while more "casual" priests might be simply praying and studying sacred texts with no battle implication.


    This post was edited by Mauvais_Oeil at May 5, 2020 4:14 PM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    May 7, 2020 9:25 AM PDT

    I see where you are coming from OP if your perspective is from a brand new starting point with no fantasy/rpg background.   

    It seems odd to hear someone say they don't understand why a summoner/wizard are different or a pally/cleric are different in this day and age.

    The short answer is that it is based on decades/centuries of past fantasy settings and legends.  Mythology, Tolkien, D&D, EQ etc...that is where we get the basis that a witch is different from a wizard and that a Pally is different from a Cleric.

     I think it might clear up some of your confusion if you understand the role these classes will play in a group.  In reality the Pally will be more similar to a Warrior in their role than they will a Cleric.  Tank/healer/CC/damage are the roles the classes are based around but there will be some overlap within the roles.  

    Since you brought up cleric/pally I'll use them as an example:

      They play completely different roles.  The pally is a tank role first and foremost with some minor heals.  The pally won't be able to sufficiently play the role of the healer in any challenging content.  The cleric is the healer role.  They heal first and foremost and any bit of damage ot tanking they are able to do won't be sufficient to play those roles in any challenging content.

    Search "quaternity" on the forums.  I know there are quite a few posts by Brad that talk about the various roles and how Pantheon defines them.

    Edit:  maybe I deciphered your post incorrectly and you are just nit picking about the name?  

    Why does the Summoner not use demonic power and summons demons and casts corrupted elementary spells, or the Wizard uses  arcane power and renamed him in an Arcanist, and the Summoner renamed in Elementarist. This would make both classes different, without changing role or gameplay.

    Well...because a necromancer deals in undead/corruption etc, not a summoner.  But maybe that was just a bad example?  They could have called a summoner an elementalist or a mage etc.  It would have been the same.  They could call a wizard an arcanist.  Seems like splitting hairs. 

    If your post is simply nit picking the class name I don't know what to tell you.  That seems like a non issue...but then I dont think that is entirely the issue because a cleric and a pally are very different and that is not just about the name.  You can't call a cleric a palladin and have the name be interchangable like with the wizard/arcanist and have people think they are the same thing.  So maybe I was right originally hah?  


    This post was edited by philo at May 7, 2020 9:38 AM PDT
    • 888 posts
    May 7, 2020 11:38 PM PDT

    To me, the Wizard is more of a generalist while the Summoner is more of a specialist.  While the Wizard can use pets, the Summoner is depenand upon them.

    And as far as the difference between a Cleric and a Paladin, I see the Cleric as a hopeful person with a personal philosophy of "let me help lead you to the light."  The Paladin, by contrast, is a bitter, burned-out Cleric and he has replaced his personal philosophy with the slightly less congenial "because f*** you, that's why!"  He no longer leads people to the light.  Instead, he hits them over the head until they see the light.

    • 4 posts
    May 11, 2020 11:25 AM PDT

    BelRoi said:

    I don't talk about role or gameplay.

    I don't get it, why everybody of you try to tell me that the difference between the classes is the role if I talk about setting and background.

    Cleric, Druid and Shaman have the same role. These classes are not just one, because they have different backgrounds. But with your argument they should be just one class.

    And we just talk about roles for infight. In "real" I'm very sure Wizards and Summoner don't study for going to a war. Just because for us players it would be very boring to play a kind of scientist they get magical skills for fighting.  That's a gameplay thing.