I'd imagine its so crazy complicated to get it right
Balance within each of the 4 class types is important Tank, Heals, DPS and CC but outside of that i dont expect any balance between how a healer sizes up to a dps in a fight (especially one with lifetap and a pet). Some classes will suffer in 1v1 and thats just how it is as far as i am concerned
But i like it when an underwhelming 1v1 class pulls a rabbit out of a hat and the stars allign for a hardfought win!
Intraclasses (meaning tanks amongst tanks, healers amongst healers, etc)
Each their moment to shine.
I think it's true to the meaning of the word if you can highlight the "character" of the class at some stages in the game.
That doesn't mean that certain areas are off limit to specific classes due to their unbalance or being insufficient for that occassion. Still manageable with adjustments or altered expectations (of the player or the group they are playing with).
Yes, allow each class to struggle at times and excell at others. Struggle, as in they have a higher chance to not be succesfull, have more of those nailbiting moments and eye of the needle saves or to really limit their scenario's (ability rotations) at times. But not so far that it becomes impossible for them to play their fundamental class identity. A tank should remain a tank in each scenario and not go as dps extra because it's just impossible for them to tank in X scenario. Same goes for healers, cc and dps. Where dps for example struggles to put out big numbers due to the challenge of resistance they face or other dangers towards them specifically.
Again, yes, some classes should be better than others, no equality required. Just don't put up any high walls and depress the player with an impossible scenario.
With healers it's the same deal. Some areas can be better aligned with the specific abilities of certain classes. Or groupheals, heal over time, direct heals, long range heals, line of sight heals...any variety might allow for healing classes to have their moment in the spotlight.
For me, it allows the player to really get to know their class limitations and experience the feeling of really understanding in depth what your class is all about. Rather then scimming the surface with thoughtless keybashings.
Interclasses equality is not my favorite. Where a paladin can outheal a healer or a healer can outdps a dps. If you want those things in, put them rare and far in between. This really opens up an ugle can of worms (to me). The Role aspect of an MMORPG really becomes endangered if you go that way.
Balance is a tricky word. Do I think all classes should be capable of doing the same thing? No way. That's what modern MMO's have all done and it homogenizes the classes making them all feel really similar. The only real balance I'm concerned with is DPS balancing and PVP balancing.
Balancing DPS Classes:
Classes that primarily focus on DPS should all provide some sort of utility to a group and raid as well as be of similar DPS capability. Most MMO's have classes that provide little to no utility and they are instead intended to provide more dps. Berserker from EQ1 is a shining example of this. The problem with that approach is it limits the number of choices a player can pick from if they want to do DPS competitively. I think it would be a much healthier system to set ALL dps classes to just about the same level of dps but make sure they have other fun and useful utility.
If I want to play a DPS class and want to DPS against other people competitively, it'd be nice to have more than 2 classes to choose from. I would want any well played DPS class to have a chance at competitive damage.
Tank DPS:
Traditionally tanks do just under a DPS classes damage. Seems like a good tank can sometimes out damage lazier DPS classes. That makes sense to me and I think that's the right balance for tanks.
Healer DPS:
Healers on the other hand never seem to do any DPS. I think healers should be a lot closer to tank DPS than traditionally. I get it, some people play a healer because that's the ONLY thing they want to do. I believe that is the loud minority. But the most fun I've had playing any healer is when I could not only heal but keep up with some of my own dps. Disciple from Vanguard is a great example of a perfect healing class. Disc could do roughly 60% of a DPS classes damage. This made the disc a very fun healer to play because it was active. You always had a way to contribute. When tanks were well geared and didn't need nearly as much healing, you could still get in there and contribute. What I've found boring in every other MMO is when the healer can't meaningfully contribute and instead, with a geared tank, they just sit there wasting space.
PVP Balance:
This is where things would get tricky. Any class that can solo well usually PvP's well too. Having healers who can deal decent damage and yet still heal is scary. Healing in PVP would need to be reduced considerably. One thing you see happen time and time is an attempt to give healers something to do in pvp - typically because they can't do any DPS. So healing in PVP is made more important - suddenly healers can't die and groups with healers become nearly invincible. EQ2 and WOW are great examples of this.
This is another argument for giving healers some decent amount of DPS. They still contribute meaningfully in PVP but do not make their group (or themselves) impossible to kill. Which is exactly what happened in EQ2 and Wow.
X
Kilsin said:Class Balance - How important is it that there is balance among classes? Should some classes be better than others in different areas or should all be equal in your opinion? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
I demand perfect balance between all classes when it comes to runspeed!
Actually, no I don't. I guess bards are kind of expected to be fast. Same for druids with their speed buff. Now that I think about it, monks might also have an argument for having higher movement speed (perfect body control)...
This seemingly simply example shows that "class balance" is way too broad, you need to specify which area you're talking about. Are we talking about dealing damage? Ability to take damage? Number of utility skills?
It was also mentioned, do we consider balance (in a specific area) between all classes, or only of classes in the same role? I guess there are some things that need to be considered for all classes, like the mentioned runspeed, or number of utility skills. Others like dealing damage must be considered both in-role (dps among dps classes), and overall (dps classes vs. tank classes vs. healers..).
I think in-role balance is quite important when it comes to the primary function of classes, but it must not be the only measure. It is no good to demand equality in dps dealt for example (for dps classes) when dps class A also brings a lot more utility to the table than dps class B. Such factors must be included in the consideration. It would definitely be helpful if the devs would state their goals for such comparisons ("We want class A to have X% less dps than class B because class A has utility xy").
Classes must remain different even in the same role withouth outperforming or underperforming by a significant margin. It's very important that the vocal minority or min maxers to not contribute in denaturing the core elements of a class.
Most MMO did that error over the year, would it be wow or FFXIV for the most popular ones, on which tanks/DPS/heals just lookalike with different colored ressources but the same gameplay, edges and no flavour.
Kilsin said:Class Balance - How important is it that there is balance among classes? Should some classes be better than others in different areas or should all be equal in your opinion? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
As this game is built upon Archetypes, classes within the same archetype should peform their primary function equally well but via different methods and means. Take 3 groups of identical composition each one having a different priest class. Each priest must be able to heal their groups equally well under the exact same circumstances. Same for your tanks and your DPS. Otherwise some classes will become second class citizens and nobody wants that.
EDIT: Oh, and this very concept is something Brad spouted off about quite often in the early days. Its exactly why he took this Quadernary approach in the first place..so don't go effing it up now.
Kilsin said:Class Balance - How important is it that there is balance among classes? Should some classes be better than others in different areas or should all be equal in your opinion? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
You will never get the classes 100% balanced to everyone's satisfaction. All you can really do is make it so that they all have their "utility" given whatever situation you might find yourself in so that no class is useless or less desirable overall.
It is fine that some classes are going to be better than others in certain situations. I do not want perfect balance because 1) It doesn't exist 2) Causes devs to spend countless development time on something they can never achieve and 3) It can really dumb down classes by making them too similar.
This thead looks awfully familiar but I am not sufficiently motivated to find the one I am thinking of not that long ago. I will just say the same thing here I did there.
Classes should be different in significant ways. Which means some will be better than others for certain activities. Trying to finetune a balance is neither necessary nor desirable in a game not focused on pvp. But I suggest two fairly essential rules.
1. Every class should be good enough at its core role in a group that groups will accept it. Thus, no healing class should be so crappy at healing that it will be almost impossible for it to get a spot as a healer in a group. Whatever else the class can or cannot do.
2. Every class should be able to wander around and explore without needing a group. That doesn't mean all content should be soloable by any means but we shouldn't have a situation such as i recall vividly from DAOC where some classes could enjoy the landscape and kill any soloable mob they saw near their level and other classes were hard put to kill a mob 5 levels lower than they were.
My opinion: Balance in strength/weaknesses are only important in PvP. True balance within classes in PRotF is not going to be achieved - because it is not a PvP oriented game.
However, balance in "functionality" (the ability of a class perform it's designated role without the reliance of third party tools or another specific mechanic outside of its own set of tools) of all classes is critical to the longevity of an MMO like this. When classes and encounters start being patched/changed dramatically "for the sake of balance" (not for important patches obviously), players will likely start to get very frustrated. Frustrated players = bad for longevity.
Either have true balance or have none at all - don't change the classes or encounters to cater to weaker classes because it will be a never ending dance that players don't want to participate in. i.e. Tanking: Chainmail will never be identical to Platemail unless it is literally coded the same, in which case, why bother having the DL wear different armor? If they make too many changes to the math, some classes will suffer while others become stronger unless they are all the same (you can't circumvent math through programming when programming is comprised of mathematical techniques itself - eventually you come to the same output).
So either have:
-perfect balance between class roles
-try to have a quasi balance leaving the devs to make adjustments for the life of the game and frustrating players (because the players will relatively quickly compare each class and create opinionated "this class is for scrubs" or "this build is supreme to all others" videos/tutorials that some people will believe like scripture).
-or let it be known that there is no balance and you get what you get.
In summary, my opinion is that balance (or lack thereof) is critical to the longevity of an MMO - either have it or don't (edit: Don't try to fake it through text when the math doesn't add up.)
Vandraad said:Kilsin said:Class Balance - How important is it that there is balance among classes? Should some classes be better than others in different areas or should all be equal in your opinion? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
As this game is built upon Archetypes, classes within the same archetype should peform their primary function equally well but via different methods and means. Take 3 groups of identical composition each one having a different priest class. Each priest must be able to heal their groups equally well under the exact same circumstances. Same for your tanks and your DPS. Otherwise some classes will become second class citizens and nobody wants that.
EDIT: Oh, and this very concept is something Brad spouted off about quite often in the early days. Its exactly why he took this Quadernary approach in the first place..so don't go effing it up now.
I agree and would just like to add that my idea of class balance is that each class would be desired for group content because each class would have a solid use in a group
Not important,
But it does bring up what classes there are. Do you really need a summoning magician AND a wizard? why not just one? if you are going to have a pure caster DPS then leave it at that.
Do you need a necromancer AND a Dark knight? loks like one would fill both bills and be a tricky hybrid to play.
Do you need a paladin AND a cleric? same reasons above.
If you have a Shaman and a Druid, do you really need a beastlord? not really. can you combine the shaman and the druid? probably.
If youa re going to go outright uniqueness and weakness then rogue makes sense, but is a beserker type necessary? looks like a rogue could do that- go crazy from the front with the right "medication"
Likewise the bard, forever dependent, useless alone. Can run away but that's about it. Always needs support group otherwise will just sing, but then again, if there are ehcnanters, do you really need both? Can an enchanter also be a bard? that would be a powerful class in itself.
Warriors are often looked to, to lead. Or at least be the first thing the monster hits, would be good if they also had an inkling of where things were, so, do you also really need a ranger especially if there is a druid around?
So we have 1 caster no heals, 1 Evil hybrid tank/caster small group heals, 1 good hybrid tank/healer big heals group and targeted, 1 natural and mystic arts DoT'er medium group HoT's, 1 singer/charmer leather wearer, crowd control no heals, 1 warrior/ranger small self heals, 1 rogue/beserker no heals. make it available to all races except the good and evil bits BUT with Lore-centric racial restrictions for the hard core players (for the one that really wants to make the Ogre sing only to be suprised after struggling foryears that hes the only ogre bard that sings.... Opera! and well! and it suddenly makes perfect sense).
Looks good to me, no balancing.
Class balance is in direct conflict with class uniqueness. I think it is important to make every class worth playing but the closer you get to balance the more ever class feels the same. Both are important so it is not a matter of one or the other but were you draw the line. I personally feel the line needs to be closer to class uniqueness.
In Summary make every class unique, useful and fun to play. As long as they are useful, they should be able to get a group. As this is a group orientated game it will be important that they are desired in groups.
I have never felt like it was super important. I play the class/race combo I WANT to play not matter what other people think about it.
I played an EQ ranger for years, made tons of friends, was valued in groups, etc. People in general made fun of rangers but I did great with mine. The only thing I can think of that would really bother me is if I spent a ton of time developing a character and THEN something changes to cause them to not be what I built them to be.
I think the whol "balance" thing is second only to QOL at destroying the MMORPG genre, so I get crappy feelings every time someone even mentions it. So I'm just going to list a few bullet points.
So Kils is asking about Class Balance.
My opinion is NO, Classes shouldent balance at all, no consideration at all put into classes. Classes need to be distinct.
Even going so far into Roll balancing (but thats not what Kilsin asked) there should be a bit in that area, but not a big concern. A Warrior should be hands down the BEST all around Tank The others can do it but none as good as a Warrior. YES Raids should NEED a Warrior tank. Same With Healer, None should be able to heal better than a Cleric, if your going to Raid, don't expect to be sicsessful with a Druid or Shammy as your main healer.
The Balance would come in with the rest of the utilitys that these others can offer, it may be added DPS (Damage Shields), it may be mitigated Damage (slows) If you want to balance it some like that it would be acceptable. But it should NOT interfear with the classes being Distinct.
Zorkon said:... if your going to Raid, don't expect to be sicsessful with a Druid or Shammy as your main healer...
I get what you're saying and don't totally disagree. But there are other ways to overcome using a druid or shammy as a main healer. So I wouldn't go as far as saying "don't expect to be sucessful" I'd just say "expect it to be a bigger challenge." But I do agree with there being a "best of" in each role and we shouldn't expect a secondary at that role to be able to fill it equally.
Ranarius said:Zorkon said:... if your going to Raid, don't expect to be sicsessful with a Druid or Shammy as your main healer...
I get what you're saying and don't totally disagree. But there are other ways to overcome using a druid or shammy as a main healer. So I wouldn't go as far as saying "don't expect to be sucessful" I'd just say "expect it to be a bigger challenge." But I do agree with there being a "best of" in each role and we shouldn't expect a secondary at that role to be able to fill it equally.
Yeah that's a hard disagree for me, and the opposite of what Pantheon has always been working toward. "Best in role" systems are trash.
Yeah that's a hard disagree for me, and the opposite of what Pantheon has always been working toward. "Best in role" systems are trash.
So are you saying that a ...
druid should do as much direct healing as a cleric? AND get all the other stuff druids get?
warrior should do as much melee dmg as a rogue? AND be able to tank?
etc.
Zorkon said:I think the whol "balance" thing is second only to QOL at destroying the MMORPG genre, so I get crappy feelings every time someone even mentions it. So I'm just going to list a few bullet points.
- PVP probably requires some balancing.
- There is Class balancing
- There is Race Balancing
- There is Roll Balancing.
- There are some that promote all class and races should balance.
So Kils is asking about Class Balance.
My opinion is NO, Classes shouldent balance at all, no consideration at all put into classes. Classes need to be distinct.
Even going so far into Roll balancing (but thats not what Kilsin asked) there should be a bit in that area, but not a big concern. A Warrior should be hands down the BEST all around Tank The others can do it but none as good as a Warrior. YES Raids should NEED a Warrior tank. Same With Healer, None should be able to heal better than a Cleric, if your going to Raid, don't expect to be sicsessful with a Druid or Shammy as your main healer.
The Balance would come in with the rest of the utilitys that these others can offer, it may be added DPS (Damage Shields), it may be mitigated Damage (slows) If you want to balance it some like that it would be acceptable. But it should NOT interfear with the classes being Distinct.
But based on what ? What would dictate the cleric or warrior should be "best in role" except it was the case in 1999 in another game ? What if all the tools these classes had outside of their "role" outweighted other similar classes and simply made them secondary to their role while Dl/Pal or Dru/shm best than warrior and clerics in raid design ?
This whole assertion is based on "warriors and clerics only get the tools to play their role so they should be the best at it", but it's not what is planned for pantheon, so ?
I do agree in class balance in the sense of I want every class to be able to do what they are designed to do in a group or raid. So we don't get the same mess in terms of 12 clerics with 2 druids and 2 shamans type of thing...or when warriors were the only class to tank raid bosses later on. However, I want classes to be better at certain encounters than others. If their is an undead raid boss...I would assume a paladin will be more equiped to deal with it than a sk and war for instance. Buttt a sk and a war can deal with the raid boss if geared correctly. I want class imbalance in terms of types of ecnounters and areas, but not soo much that it is nearly impossible for the other classes in that genre to not be able to do. Could have a raid boss that is geared more towards range dps by having aoes going off that make melee dps run in and out...then on the other hand you could of a boss with a lot of magic resist and magic missiles shooting out of its scales, pores, w/e that land on the range..making them have to move and dodge... Soo yeah, if we take a neutral mob/boss/raid boss then the classes should be even in their respect roles. If it isn't a neutral mob, then we take into account who might be the best for the job...which is why I like big raids because you can cover all your basis lol.
When it comes to PvP I don't care. I wouldn't balance for PVP and it effect PVE. I would leave it to the gamers to decide because people tend to come up with gear compositions and tactics that can bring them favor in terms of pvp.
First off, for me "balance" doesn't mean "equality".
So yes "balance" is very important, because it is what allows all classes to be viable.
But classes should NOT be equal, or it would be meaningless to have several classes.
I don't even care if amongs DPS classes some do more DPS than others, as long as others has something else (as much important) in its sleeve.
Actually what matters the most for me it's class uniqueness, its flavor, its gameplay, etc...
Please keep archetype roles clearly defined too : for example, a tank should not be able to even compare himself with a dps class, not even a lazy one, only an AFK one lol
As I don't want to see a mage be able to survive several hits from a mob. Please stay away from what as become EQ2 :)
So again, yes "balance" is important", but class "differences" too !