disposalist said:dorotea said:I think they should mirror ....Pantheon. Not any other game.
And I don't think they should waste a lot of time on it either - this has been pushed as a group game not a solo game *or* a raiding game.
/nod
I'll add a /nod to Dorothea here as well.
@Kittik I understand what your trying to do here, to give the Devs, some feedback to work with. But I think your delivery was a bit off with the use of the word "mirrored" it looks like you're seeing that as well already. But in the spirit of what I understand to be your intent I'll throw this out. I loved in EQ1, FEAR was to me the ultimate best raid zone I have ever experienced from the blindly entering the zone to Cazic's death touch, to corpse runs possibly taking days after a wipe it was nothing less than epic.
Raiding in WOW ruined it for me, this turning the whole deal into some scripted thing on rails. I would prefer to go Square Dancing than do another WOW raid. It's about the same thing.
But something else I would like to point out. On at least 3 of your post in this thread you state that your intent was to give feedback from a "majority of there player base". Sorry but that's not possible on these forums. These forums represent a vocal minority at best, These forums can offer ideas and food for thought but ultimately I believe forums of Vocal minorities directing development is what has brought the mmorpg's to where they are today. ONLY a vocal minority wants to play them any more.
@Kittik I know you are wanting a general idea of what others find interesting for raid content which is fine, but everyone as you can see will have their own opinions on it, none of which is right or wrong. And while I see you want this as an opportunity for devs to read this and grab some feedback I do think Zorkon is right with this is a minority on the forums to answer this. I'm guess VR probably has a pretty stable idea how they will handle raiding and once it's player tested they'll adjust as needed. However, I do like where this post could/could've went and will throw in my 2 cents.
I think a mix of WoW and EQ1 ideally for me would be pleasant to see. EQ1 was tough in the sense of how unforgiving raiding was which is what most seem to remember and like. The original planes (Hate,Fear,Sky) were some of the toughest raids I had ever done when it came to raid content when it was current progression. Even getting to CT in Fear was a challenge in itself let alone facing him. And pulling Inny's room was always a "treat". For me personally though, PoP sticks out the most when it comes to straight progression. I'd love for Pantheon to have progression like that, with the keying and flagging system. Talk about having guilds work together that was nuts. From PoDisease all the way to Time and the elemental planes was so intense in its time I was star struck doing it all. Plus being surrounded by 71 other players to take down raids was so crazy to me. Like 71 other people behind a desk working together for the same goal always amped me up come raid night.
With WoW I geniunely think they did raiding right for their game. And for the longest time concensus proves that to be true. 40 man raids were tough, abilities you needed to move in and out of. Taunt swapping, resist gear, resist pots it was truly epic to raid that content. Original Naxxaramas was completely unforgiving not to mention broken. TBC expansion was tough LK was tough and I think from their WoW has definitley watered down their content.
Pantheon will surely have their own way of handling raid encounters and I'm sure (if they are smart) will dab their brush into some other MMO aspects, refine it to make it their own. I think a lot here want the EQ and EQ2 feel for it because that's the itch they are missing and while I'm sure VR will do their best to hold such standards the best they can I'd like to remind some this isn't an EQ remake. These aren't Sony or Daybreak devs working on EQ3. Hopefully with the time they are putting in it will be much better, better than what we wanted from EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Rift, Tera, BDO, etc etc. I truly hope that even though this will be a niche market, they will find a way to call it their own and players will be satisfied with the content released and the difficulty VR sets as standard for such.
Kittik said:Aarpoch said:I don't think it shoudl mirror any other game. If i wanted to play a game that mirrored then I'd just go play that game. I'm excited about Pantheon for it's fresh take on things.
Ok. Yes EVERYONE. Me too, we all want this. Wa all want Pantheon to be new, innovative, freash, different. Awesome. Their own! Not a copy! Brand f'in new!!!! Ok, I f'in get it, but we also want it released this lifetime. So taking proven good mechanics and design's is not a bad thing and which freakin' one's do you like the most FFS!!!
This is why posting on these boards is nearly useless. Kittik, people can't just play along and have fun while we wait another 5 years for this game. I totally understand your thoughts and questions with this. I think WoW had some good raids. EQ1 had some great raid areas, Hate, Fear, Air etc. I would like to see a mix of EQ1/WoW - ish stuff. Sorry people don't understand your post. Can't fix stupid.
I swear kilsin could post: Red or Blue. and 10 out of 30 on these boards wouldn't be able to answer the question. They'd have to get into some philosophical debate of some sort over not having enough info to answer or some stupid krap like that. They want the sun, moon, and stars in Pantheon. i just want a friggen game to play and sometime this century. so if they steal an idea or two from another game, i'm ok with that. They do NOT have to reinvent the wheel at every corner....
/flame on ....
EQ1 had an epic feel to raids no other MMO has ever matched... the closest is maybe WAR with Keep sieges but that was PvP. The sheer number of people made it feel epic however many of the mechanics were very basic. WoW was decent but it felt more like a mini game to me, move here, then here, then here. WoW raids were very scripted, how to beat them was planned out. EQ1 on the other hand felt a lot like they just threw a dragon in a zone and said "let the players figure it out. In WoW there was typically one way to beat a raid, in EQ there were variations.
All that being said I want to see a mix of the two. I would like open world raids with no limit on the amount of people that can participate and I'd like to see "spawned/triggered" raids that people can plan, schedule, and have a cap on the amount of people.
Flapp said:Kittik said:Aarpoch said:I don't think it shoudl mirror any other game. If i wanted to play a game that mirrored then I'd just go play that game. I'm excited about Pantheon for it's fresh take on things.
Ok. Yes EVERYONE. Me too, we all want this. Wa all want Pantheon to be new, innovative, freash, different. Awesome. Their own! Not a copy! Brand f'in new!!!! Ok, I f'in get it, but we also want it released this lifetime. So taking proven good mechanics and design's is not a bad thing and which freakin' one's do you like the most FFS!!!
This is why posting on these boards is nearly useless. Kittik, people can't just play along and have fun while we wait another 5 years for this game. I totally understand your thoughts and questions with this. I think WoW had some good raids. EQ1 had some great raid areas, Hate, Fear, Air etc. I would like to see a mix of EQ1/WoW - ish stuff. Sorry people don't understand your post. Can't fix stupid.
I swear kilsin could post: Red or Blue. and 10 out of 30 on these boards wouldn't be able to answer the question. They'd have to get into some philosophical debate of some sort over not having enough info to answer or some stupid krap like that. They want the sun, moon, and stars in Pantheon. i just want a friggen game to play and sometime this century. so if they steal an idea or two from another game, i'm ok with that. They do NOT have to reinvent the wheel at every corner....
/flame on ....
It's a shame some people don't understand the concept of an opinion. An opinion was saught, and was given. It is true though, can't fix stupid.
Kittik said:If Pantheon was to mirror the raiding aspect of one game, or combine a couple apsects from different games what games, aspects and why?
I would like to see a blend of FFXI / Vanguard mechanics with a few new twists. I'm going to quote one of my older posts that explains how it would work, but feel free to skip to the end of this post for a TLDR summary:
oneADseven said:I want to touch on a subject that is near and dear to my heart as it pertains to raiding in MMO's. I've played plenty of games over the years and if there was one thing I noticed getting more and more popular, it was the use of "instanced raiding." Why did this become so popular? The short answer is simple ... supply vs demand. When it comes to contested content that operates on a 3-5 day respawn cycle, it's accessibility is extremely limited. Generally speaking, the first couple guilds to reach max-level would be in the best position possible to learn and master the encounter mechanics of any given fight. While the majority of a server is still leveling up, there are always a select few that are already pushing the limits of end-game content. There is always a race to see who will conquer the biggest and baddest bosses in the game.
What ends up happening is these select few players end up beating the content and putting it on farm status. Eventually, the rest of the server will catch up ... and when it comes time for them to attempt this "contested content" they quickly learn that their chances are slim to none. As soon as these encounters spawn, several competing guilds will attempt to down them. This isn't in an effort to "block" other guilds from experiencing the content, but rather to lay claim to the awesome rewards that are so commonly associated with high-end contested raid content. So for all the other guilds out there that would like to eventually take a crack at these encounters, the opportunities will be few and far between. Even if you are lucky enough to get a couple pulls in, the encounters are so tough that they usually require dozens of pulls to master the mechanics.
So after your pull is over, the competing guilds step in and attempt to down the boss using the tactics that they came up with weeks or months ago while practicing freely against the boss. Soon enough, it's laying on the ground dead and those same players are jumping with joy as they distribute the uber loot they just obtained. So where does this leave you? You really want to attempt that same boss ... you want that same loot ... but how will you get it? Do you abandon your current guild and move on to greener pastures, increasing the likelihood of you experiencing that content? Do you hold a pep rally and tell your members you'll get it next time? Well, many will be quick to remind you that you might get it next time if only you actually had the chance to battle the encounter in the first place and get those darn mechanics down. This is where the Hyper/Ghost concept comes into play.
I'm going to provide an explanation here to make sense of it. Basically, the hyper/ghost concept is something that allows competitive guilds the opportunity to compete for contested content, but also allows others to attempt that same fight afterward. Here is how it works:
"True Hyper Dragon"
Respawn: 3-5 days.
Lockout: None.
Loot: 4-6 pieces from the "Dragon Loot Table" -- 2 to 3 of which are exclusive to the "True Hyper Loot Table""Ghost Dragon"
Respawn: 30-60 minutes after any version of the "Dragon" is killed.
Lockout: 3-5 days.
Loot: 2-3 pieces from the "Dragon Loot Table" and 1 "Hyper Dragon Essence""Hyper Dragon"
Respawn: Force popped by using 3 "Hyper Dragon Essences"
Lockout: 3-5 days, shared with the "Ghost Dragon."
Loot: 3-4 pieces from the "Dragon Loot Table" 1 to 2 of which are exclusive to the "True Hyper Loot Table."
As you can see, the "True Hyper" or "THV" version is basically a bonus kill. This is the contested version that all competing guilds will be striving to conquer. After it's killed, though, it will later respawn as the "Ghost Version." This version is toned down some, both in difficulty and the quality of loot that is rewarded. Nonetheless, the ghost version is still incredibly difficult and its loot highly desirable. Upon killing the ghost version, players involved in the raid receive a lockout that prevents them from continually farming the mob as it respawns every 30-60 minutes. This gives other guilds an opportunity to experience that same content. On the flip side, successfully killing the ghost version will also reward your raid with a "hyper essence" that can be used to force pop a "Hyper Version." Once you accumulate 3 of these essences, you can transform the ghost version into the hyper version. The hyper version is nearly identical to the "True Hyper" version except for a couple of small differences. The first is that it has a lockout, and it's shared with the ghost version. The second is that the loot is slightly toned down from the true hyper version. Other than that, the encounter is the exact same.
The benefits of a system like this are abundant. Competitive guilds still have a "bonus kill" that they can compete for each and every week. Those who miss out still have the opportunity to experience the encounter and obtain some loot with the ghost version. This is invaluable as the experience is necessary if they ever want to compete for the contested version, and they still get some loot to ensure that their characters are progressing enough to have a chance to beat it. After downing the ghost version a few times, guilds then have the option to force pop the hyper version. This drops better loot and allows guilds the opportunity to experience the full version of the encounter. The more guilds who are able to kill the ghost version, the more there will be who can kill the hyper version. The more who can kill the hyper version, the more that can "compete" for the true hyper version. Not only does this make the competitive raid scene more broadly competitive (it diminishes the insurmountable power gap that can be achieved by rushing to end-game), but it also serves as a platform to keep the "gear gap" in check. It won't close the gap completely, and it shouldn't ... risk vs reward is important, and those who kill the contested version should receive their appropriate bounty. But at the end of the day, a system like this will help facilitate competitive raiding on every server while also making it more accessible to the masses.
One issue I always had with competitive raiding is that these encounters have generally been the most fun encounters in the game. There are so many interesting and clever mechanics that me and my guild were able to enjoy over the years, but while we were farming these bosses, we were inadvertently preventing others from ever having a chance to experience that content, not to mention how it thwarted their ability to progress/compete. The gear gap continued to broaden and our "encounter mastery" continued to grow stronger. While we still had alliances on our server with other guilds, they were generally non-competitive raiding guilds. When it came to competition, heated rivalries ensued. I remember hearing and seeing plenty of unpleasant messages while participating in the hardcore raid scene and that's something I hope to avoid this go around. Rather than competitive guilds being viewed as the villain ... how about they get to play the role of hero for a change? How exactly could that work?
It starts with the competitive guilds taking out the "True Hyper Version." At that point, it's a free for all. Anybody and everybody can attempt it. More likely than not, there will be a few guilds who just aren't prepared for a fight of that magnitude. After the uber guild downs the true hyper version, it opens up the ghost version to everybody else. Now the guilds who couldn't necessarily kill the true hyper version might have something that they can kill. They get to learn the ropes of the fight and eventually acquire some loot that will help them grow stronger for next time. Rather than feeling "robbed" of content from another guild, they are "enabled" -- and not just for the "easy version" as some people might think. The ghost versions would still be incredibly difficult. But now they get to practice the encounter, accumulate some loot that will help them grow stronger ... and eventually have a chance to compete. I can't stress enough how important it is that guilds have the opportunity to at least experience the content. When content is purely contested, it's almost impossible for most players to learn the mechanics.
Beyond that, it's possible that downing the true hyper version has other perks and these would be temporarily accessible to everybody in the area. These wouldn't take shape as loot, but rather have an impact on the immediate territory and the NPC's who occupy it. Perhaps after a mighty dragon is killed, a new path to a nearby zone is opened up. With another boss, maybe it's the only path to a certain area that opens up. Another idea is that after a certain boss is killed, a nearby town temporarily decreases the "city tax" that is imposed on the sale of any goods purchased in the area. Maybe the local inn or tavern offers a small discount to everybody in the area as a gesture of appreciation for "Guild X" who killed the monster that was plaguing the neighborhood. Imagine the following:
Server Impact
What if killing raid bosses had an impact on the world our characters live in? Rather than being limited to shuffling more loot into the world, why couldn't downing a pesky dragon have a noticeable impact on the immediate area nearby? Loot acquisition will always be important as it plays a vital role in power progression for our characters, but wouldn't it be cool if the impact of downing these beasts could actually make a difference in how various NPC's interact with you / each other in the world?
Opportunistic TradesmenWhen a THV raid boss is killed, opportunistic tradesmen seek to grow their fortunes by setting up shop in an area that was otherwise too dangerous while the raid boss was roaming around. These merchants could sell unique crafting components or other desirable goodies that are only accessible for a limited period while the THV bosses are dead. Other merchants such as repair vendors, ammo vendors, or food/drink vendors could also sell their wares in convenient locations now that the territory is less hostile.
Kings Reach ExtendedWhat if, every time a raid boss is killed in a certain area, there is a sense of "server progression" that takes place in the background? Perhaps there are Kings or Tribal Leaders that are looking to expand their territory and with every THV boss that is vanquished, they get one step closer. Maybe this could turn into a new tavern, inn, or outpost. Perhaps a shortcut is eventually opened up (a bridge built, tunnel excavated, etc) or elements of the faction system are adjusted. After expanding their territory, Tribe X now views kobolds as a pest to their operations and killing them now grants faction with that tribe whereas before, they didn't.
Perhaps these contested raid bosses drop some sort of building material (rare ore, metal, wood) that is highly sought after by local authorities who are trying to build a teleportation spire in the area. Let's say it requires 100 of these items to build the spire -- the guild who turns in the most can have a monument built in their name, or perhaps they could name the spire itself?
Intensely SocialAfter a guild kills an obnoxious hill giant known for pillaging fields and slaughtering cattle, word starts to spread of their good deed. Local citizens in a nearby town are more amicable and promote the reputation of the guild who came to save the day. Perhaps the taverns/inns offer a temporary discount to any/all patrons in the area, but their text dialogue now includes a shout out for the guild who killed the hill giant. "Thanks to Guild X, we were able to enjoy a full harvest this month. Please enjoy a 10% discount on our wares."
Likewise, perhaps the king in the area is willing to temporarily reduce certain fees. Whether it's sales tax, property tax, broker fees, passage fees, etc ... perhaps there can be a mildly noticeable decrease to various fees in an area after certain contested raid bosses are killed. The king could put up message boards to announce such an event "Due to Guild X vanquishing Big Bad Red Dragon, we've had many more visitors and our mercantile district is thriving. We are temporarily reducing taxes/fees until further notice."
ColiseumDoubling down on accessibility, what if, after any guilds kills a certain THV encounter, gnome scientists are able to extract samples and reproduce mechanical versions of the same encounter and allow challengers to do battle with them in their arena, for sport? They wouldn't drop the same loot of course ... but perhaps challengers would be willing to pay a fee to test these hyper versions in a neutral, more accessible location? Killing them could perhaps reward some sort of faction or token that could be exchanged with coliseum vendors to provide some sort of reward. This could be scaled to whatever feels appropriate ... but the point is to make the encounter accessible. Allow guilds to challenge themselves by doing battle with these mechanical constructs. Perhaps there could a leader board system of sorts that track various efficiency metrics such as time, death tally, DPS measurables by archetype, etc?
These are just a few ideas on how raiding can evolve in Pantheon. We can take the tried and true methods of the past, but reshape them in a way that makes them more accessible and desirable. I firmly believe that there is a prime opportunity to capture the "raid audience" from the MMO genre and lure them to Pantheon. Most of the issues that have plagued the MMO genre over the years really come down to the following variables: "Hardcore vs Casual" / "Forced vs Optional" / "Fun vs Tedious" -- I think an ideal raiding system would feature gameplay aspects that could include both hardcore and casual, be truly optional, and reinforce the idea of having fun with friends.
The main takeaway is that this system does not require instancing, phasing, sharding, or /picks. Since the hyper/ghost mechanic can be applied selectively, it would allow pinpoint precision in regards to the contested/accessible factor of each individual mob. Content denial would not exist as a term in this game. Zerging would not exist. The raid scene would actually be more competitive as this kind of system would allow additional guilds to enter the competitive arena, particularly those who do not rush to end-game as fast as possible. This is more of a PVE-focused take on competition than the pseudo-PVP that occurs with DPS racing and zerging. Guilds would be able to plan/schedule some of this content which is important. When it comes to content that can be scheduled, overcoming difficult content would be the difference between have and have-not ... rather than the bat-phoning and poopsocking of the past. In the end ... it is a compromise that preserves the competitive spirit of the game, while also alleviating the cluster of nightmare that occurs when players are incentivized to sabotage eachother with degenerate play and tactic.
oneADseven said:Kittik said:If Pantheon was to mirror the raiding aspect of one game, or combine a couple apsects from different games what games, aspects and why?
I would like to see a blend of FFXI / Vanguard mechanics with a few new twists. I'm going to quote one of my older posts that explains how it would work:
oneADseven said:I want to touch on a subject that is near and dear to my heart as it pertains to raiding in MMO's. I've played plenty of games over the years and if there was one thing I noticed getting more and more popular, it was the use of "instanced raiding." Why did this become so popular? The short answer is simple ... supply vs demand. When it comes to contested content that operates on a 3-5 day respawn cycle, it's accessibility is extremely limited. Generally speaking, the first couple guilds to reach max-level would be in the best position possible to learn and master the encounter mechanics of any given fight. While the majority of a server is still leveling up, there are always a select few that are already pushing the limits of end-game content. There is always a race to see who will conquer the biggest and baddest bosses in the game.
What ends up happening is these select few players end up beating the content and putting it on farm status. Eventually, the rest of the server will catch up ... and when it comes time for them to attempt this "contested content" they quickly learn that their chances are slim to none. As soon as these encounters spawn, several competing guilds will attempt to down them. This isn't in an effort to "block" other guilds from experiencing the content, but rather to lay claim to the awesome rewards that are so commonly associated with high-end contested raid content. So for all the other guilds out there that would like to eventually take a crack at these encounters, the opportunities will be few and far between. Even if you are lucky enough to get a couple pulls in, the encounters are so tough that they usually require dozens of pulls to master the mechanics.
So after your pull is over, the competing guilds step in and attempt to down the boss using the tactics that they came up with weeks or months ago while practicing freely against the boss. Soon enough, it's laying on the ground dead and those same players are jumping with joy as they distribute the uber loot they just obtained. So where does this leave you? You really want to attempt that same boss ... you want that same loot ... but how will you get it? Do you abandon your current guild and move on to greener pastures, increasing the likelihood of you experiencing that content? Do you hold a pep rally and tell your members you'll get it next time? Well, many will be quick to remind you that you might get it next time if only you actually had the chance to battle the encounter in the first place and get those darn mechanics down. This is where the Hyper/Ghost concept comes into play.
I'm going to provide an explanation here to make sense of it. Basically, the hyper/ghost concept is something that allows competitive guilds the opportunity to compete for contested content, but also allows others to attempt that same fight afterward. Here is how it works:
"True Hyper Dragon"
Respawn: 3-5 days.
Lockout: None.
Loot: 4-6 pieces from the "Dragon Loot Table" -- 2 to 3 of which are exclusive to the "True Hyper Loot Table""Ghost Dragon"
Respawn: 30-60 minutes after any version of the "Dragon" is killed.
Lockout: 3-5 days.
Loot: 2-3 pieces from the "Dragon Loot Table" and 1 "Hyper Dragon Essence""Hyper Dragon"
Respawn: Force popped by using 3 "Hyper Dragon Essences"
Lockout: 3-5 days, shared with the "Ghost Dragon."
Loot: 3-4 pieces from the "Dragon Loot Table" 1 to 2 of which are exclusive to the "True Hyper Loot Table."
As you can see, the "True Hyper" or "THV" version is basically a bonus kill. This is the contested version that all competing guilds will be striving to conquer. After it's killed, though, it will later respawn as the "Ghost Version." This version is toned down some, both in difficulty and the quality of loot that is rewarded. Nonetheless, the ghost version is still incredibly difficult and its loot highly desirable. Upon killing the ghost version, players involved in the raid receive a lockout that prevents them from continually farming the mob as it respawns every 30-60 minutes. This gives other guilds an opportunity to experience that same content. On the flip side, successfully killing the ghost version will also reward your raid with a "hyper essence" that can be used to force pop a "Hyper Version." Once you accumulate 3 of these essences, you can transform the ghost version into the hyper version. The hyper version is nearly identical to the "True Hyper" version except for a couple of small differences. The first is that it has a lockout, and it's shared with the ghost version. The second is that the loot is slightly toned down from the true hyper version. Other than that, the encounter is the exact same.
The benefits of a system like this are abundant. Competitive guilds still have a "bonus kill" that they can compete for each and every week. Those who miss out still have the opportunity to experience the encounter and obtain some loot with the ghost version. This is invaluable as the experience is necessary if they ever want to compete for the contested version, and they still get some loot to ensure that their characters are progressing enough to have a chance to beat it. After downing the ghost version a few times, guilds then have the option to force pop the hyper version. This drops better loot and allows guilds the opportunity to experience the full version of the encounter. The more guilds who are able to kill the ghost version, the more there will be who can kill the hyper version. The more who can kill the hyper version, the more that can "compete" for the true hyper version. Not only does this make the competitive raid scene more broadly competitive (it diminishes the insurmountable power gap that can be achieved by rushing to end-game), but it also serves as a platform to keep the "gear gap" in check. It won't close the gap completely, and it shouldn't ... risk vs reward is important, and those who kill the contested version should receive their appropriate bounty. But at the end of the day, a system like this will help facilitate competitive raiding on every server while also making it more accessible to the masses.
One issue I always had with competitive raiding is that these encounters have generally been the most fun encounters in the game. There are so many interesting and clever mechanics that me and my guild were able to enjoy over the years, but while we were farming these bosses, we were inadvertently preventing others from ever having a chance to experience that content, not to mention how it thwarted their ability to progress/compete. The gear gap continued to broaden and our "encounter mastery" continued to grow stronger. While we still had alliances on our server with other guilds, they were generally non-competitive raiding guilds. When it came to competition, heated rivalries ensued. I remember hearing and seeing plenty of unpleasant messages while participating in the hardcore raid scene and that's something I hope to avoid this go around. Rather than competitive guilds being viewed as the villain ... how about they get to play the role of hero for a change? How exactly could that work?
It starts with the competitive guilds taking out the "True Hyper Version." At that point, it's a free for all. Anybody and everybody can attempt it. More likely than not, there will be a few guilds who just aren't prepared for a fight of that magnitude. After the uber guild downs the true hyper version, it opens up the ghost version to everybody else. Now the guilds who couldn't necessarily kill the true hyper version might have something that they can kill. They get to learn the ropes of the fight and eventually acquire some loot that will help them grow stronger for next time. Rather than feeling "robbed" of content from another guild, they are "enabled" -- and not just for the "easy version" as some people might think. The ghost versions would still be incredibly difficult. But now they get to practice the encounter, accumulate some loot that will help them grow stronger ... and eventually have a chance to compete. I can't stress enough how important it is that guilds have the opportunity to at least experience the content. When content is purely contested, it's almost impossible for most players to learn the mechanics.
Beyond that, it's possible that downing the true hyper version has other perks and these would be temporarily accessible to everybody in the area. These wouldn't take shape as loot, but rather have an impact on the immediate territory and the NPC's who occupy it. Perhaps after a mighty dragon is killed, a new path to a nearby zone is opened up. With another boss, maybe it's the only path to a certain area that opens up. Another idea is that after a certain boss is killed, a nearby town temporarily decreases the "city tax" that is imposed on the sale of any goods purchased in the area. Maybe the local inn or tavern offers a small discount to everybody in the area as a gesture of appreciation for "Guild X" who killed the monster that was plaguing the neighborhood. Imagine the following:
Server Impact
What if killing raid bosses had an impact on the world our characters live in? Rather than being limited to shuffling more loot into the world, why couldn't downing a pesky dragon have a noticeable impact on the immediate area nearby? Loot acquisition will always be important as it plays a vital role in power progression for our characters, but wouldn't it be cool if the impact of downing these beasts could actually make a difference in how various NPC's interact with you / each other in the world?
Opportunistic TradesmenWhen a THV raid boss is killed, opportunistic tradesmen seek to grow their fortunes by setting up shop in an area that was otherwise too dangerous while the raid boss was roaming around. These merchants could sell unique crafting components or other desirable goodies that are only accessible for a limited period while the THV bosses are dead. Other merchants such as repair vendors, ammo vendors, or food/drink vendors could also sell their wares in convenient locations now that the territory is less hostile.
Kings Reach ExtendedWhat if, every time a raid boss is killed in a certain area, there is a sense of "server progression" that takes place in the background? Perhaps there are Kings or Tribal Leaders that are looking to expand their territory and with every THV boss that is vanquished, they get one step closer. Maybe this could turn into a new tavern, inn, or outpost. Perhaps a shortcut is eventually opened up (a bridge built, tunnel excavated, etc) or elements of the faction system are adjusted. After expanding their territory, Tribe X now views kobolds as a pest to their operations and killing them now grants faction with that tribe whereas before, they didn't.
Perhaps these contested raid bosses drop some sort of building material (rare ore, metal, wood) that is highly sought after by local authorities who are trying to build a teleportation spire in the area. Let's say it requires 100 of these items to build the spire -- the guild who turns in the most can have a monument built in their name, or perhaps they could name the spire itself?
Intensely SocialAfter a guild kills an obnoxious hill giant known for pillaging fields and slaughtering cattle, word starts to spread of their good deed. Local citizens in a nearby town are more amicable and promote the reputation of the guild who came to save the day. Perhaps the taverns/inns offer a temporary discount to any/all patrons in the area, but their text dialogue now includes a shout out for the guild who killed the hill giant. "Thanks to Guild X, we were able to enjoy a full harvest this month. Please enjoy a 10% discount on our wares."
Likewise, perhaps the king in the area is willing to temporarily reduce certain fees. Whether it's sales tax, property tax, broker fees, passage fees, etc ... perhaps there can be a mildly noticeable decrease to various fees in an area after certain contested raid bosses are killed. The king could put up message boards to announce such an event "Due to Guild X vanquishing Big Bad Red Dragon, we've had many more visitors and our mercantile district is thriving. We are temporarily reducing taxes/fees until further notice."
ColiseumDoubling down on accessibility, what if, after any guilds kills a certain THV encounter, gnome scientists are able to extract samples and reproduce mechanical versions of the same encounter and allow challengers to do battle with them in their arena, for sport? They wouldn't drop the same loot of course ... but perhaps challengers would be willing to pay a fee to test these hyper versions in a neutral, more accessible location? Killing them could perhaps reward some sort of faction or token that could be exchanged with coliseum vendors to provide some sort of reward. This could be scaled to whatever feels appropriate ... but the point is to make the encounter accessible. Allow guilds to challenge themselves by doing battle with these mechanical constructs. Perhaps there could a leader board system of sorts that track various efficiency metrics such as time, death tally, DPS measurables by archetype, etc?
These are just a few ideas on how raiding can evolve in Pantheon. We can take the tried and true methods of the past, but reshape them in a way that makes them more accessible and desirable. I firmly believe that there is a prime opportunity to capture the "raid audience" from the MMO genre and lure them to Pantheon. Most of the issues that have plagued the MMO genre over the years really come down to the following variables: "Hardcore vs Casual" / "Forced vs Optional" / "Fun vs Tedious" -- I think an ideal raiding system would feature gameplay aspects that could include both hardcore and casual, be truly optional, and reinforce the idea of having fun with friends.The main takeaway is that this system does not require instancing, phasing, sharding, or /picks. Since the hyper/ghost mechanic can be applied selectively, it would allow pinpoint precision in regards to the contested/accessible factor of each individual mob. Content denial would not exist as a term in this game. Zerging would not exist. The raid scene would actually be more competitive as this kind of system would allow additional guilds to enter the competitive arena, particularly those who do not rush to end-game as fast as possible. This is more of a PVE-focused take on competition than the pseudo-PVP that occurs with DPS racing and zerging. Guilds would be able to plan/schedule some of this content which is important. When it comes to content that can be scheduled, overcoming difficult content would be the difference between have and have-not ... rather than the bat-phoning and poopsocking of the past. In the end ... it is a compromise that preserves the competitive spirit of the game, while also alleviating the cluster of nightmare that occurs when players are incentivized to sabotage eachother with degenerate play and tactic.
Very interesting idea. A fresh take on an old idea. Personally the kind of stuff I hope to see all over the game =)
EQ1 had the best raiding that I have been a part of. I have raided in a fair amount of games, WoW, EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, Rift, Warhammer, and out of all of those it is EQ1. I think most of the reasoning is the size of the raids. Back then you would have anywhere from 40-80 people on a raid and coordinating it all via chat system too because there was no ventrilo, teamspeak, or discord back then. Prepping and explaining took a ton of time but when the raid started nothing compared to EQ1. Sure there have been some concepts from other games I liked that could be implemented to make raiding better. But if I had to mirror one I would say EQ1. Although I hope they don't mirror anything I hope they bring out something entirely new.
Vanguard raiding probably ranks second, only because I only dabbled in raids in the other games. EQ1 and Vanguard was what I raided religiously in. Vanguard had some really good and really hard encounters with neat features and side plots to do.
The only thing I hope they stay away from in regards to raiding is scripts like what SoE did with the Dreadspire Keep raids, the sisters, and performer events were just boring for most of the raid, you had a handful of people that could speak the right text and go to the right places and the rest of the raid just sat there killing adds from time to time.
I definitely prefer larger raids. They are called raids because they require a lot of people. 16 man raids, even 24 man raids are okay, but I don't like them being the raids that reward the best items. I think those should come from monsters that require 30+ people to bring down. Coordinating 16 people is relatively easy. when you get into 30 and 50 and up it gets a lot more complicated. Everyone has to be on their toes and doing their job and when you win it's so much sweeter.
Aarpoch said:Flapp said:Kittik said:Aarpoch said:
Ok. Yes EVERYONE. Me too, we all want this. Wa all want Pantheon to be new, innovative, freash, different. Awesome. Their own! Not a copy! Brand f'in new!!!! Ok, I f'in get it, but we also want it released this lifetime. So taking proven good mechanics and design's is not a bad thing and which freakin' one's do you like the most FFS!!!
It's a shame some people don't understand the concept of an opinion. An opinion was saught, and was given. It is true though, can't fix stupid.
he didn't ask for an opinion of 'do you want new krap or copy another game.' he simply asked: IF and IF, I will say it One more time: IF pantheon used raid ideas from other games, what type off raids from Past games would you like to see in pantheon. again, people were too stupid to know how to answer his question.
Flapp said:Aarpoch said:Flapp said:Kittik said:Aarpoch said:
Ok. Yes EVERYONE. Me too, we all want this. Wa all want Pantheon to be new, innovative, freash, different. Awesome. Their own! Not a copy! Brand f'in new!!!! Ok, I f'in get it, but we also want it released this lifetime. So taking proven good mechanics and design's is not a bad thing and which freakin' one's do you like the most FFS!!!
It's a shame some people don't understand the concept of an opinion. An opinion was saught, and was given. It is true though, can't fix stupid.
he didn't ask for an opinion of 'do you want new krap or copy another game.' he simply asked: IF and IF, I will say it One more time: IF pantheon used raid ideas from other games, what type off raids from Past games would you like to see in pantheon. again, people were too stupid to know how to answer his question.
Kittik says "If Pantheon was to mirror the raiding aspect of one game, or combine a couple apsects from different games what games, aspects and why?"
@Flapp:
The biggest part of this is the "why" part insinuating he wants the opinions of others as to why they are choosing what they chose. Hence from everything I've read on this forum page people have given their reasons to WHY. You don't put in an opinion without context thats silly. Even with the few saying why take from another page make it your own is still an opinion. So I'm not sure why you are getting so upset and twisted when somone calls you out saying the answers are being given.
You started with the insults of "you can't fix stupid." Which is childish at best to feel the need to post that on a forum that people come to and express how they feel. If you are so upset with what people are saying the stay off the damn forums period. If you can't provide something contructive whether you agree with it or not then stop reading forums or at the very least show some self control and not post toxic crap like "you cant fix stupid." People don't put their opinions to be insulted by random ya-hoo. If OP doesn't like the answers he can always ask the devs to take down the page and it will be out of site out of mind.
I'm sure now this forum page will get shut down as it's just become a flame war and is veering off topic but sorry VR and anyone else who it offends, I'm not going to be generalized by 1 person even if it wasn't directed at me as being stupid. Bullying is bullying and I'm not going to listen to it even if it means I call you out on how wrong you are acting. Period.
Also sidenote just say crap idk if you feel that krap will take you off the basis of no *cursing* but the context is still there, at least stand by what you say.
Xxar said:Eq2 raiding post KOS mixed with Rift .... HammerKnell and Akylios are some of the best designed zones / encounters, I have ever seen.
Hammerknell was pretty intense. I loved Greenscale as well. First time seeing him was pretty cool. Though that raid zone did get very repetitive.
oneADseven said:Kittik said:If Pantheon was to mirror the raiding aspect of one game, or combine a couple apsects from different games what games, aspects and why?
I would like to see a blend of FFXI / Vanguard mechanics with a few new twists. I'm going to quote one of my older posts that explains how it would work:
oneADseven said:TLDR
OMG!!#
Good lord 187 you actually took an already TLDR post and added to it. And then to top it off people are quoting it.
"Step back Z, step back before your head explodes"
OGTomkins said:Xxar said:Eq2 raiding post KOS mixed with Rift .... HammerKnell and Akylios are some of the best designed zones / encounters, I have ever seen.
Hammerknell was pretty intense. I loved Greenscale as well. First time seeing him was pretty cool. Though that raid zone did get very repetitive.
Granted , that can be said of any raid zone that needs to be farmed. Encounter wise both of those are master pieces.
So people express that copying or combining exact copies to make a raid system in Pantheon is not what they'd like VR to do and they get called stupid?
Ironic, since it implies the response wasn't understood.
Though it was obvious to me, I'll try and help with an explanation.
Perhaps VR should not approach multi-group content by mirroring other systems, because the other systems have all had a lot of problems and not been very popular with most players.
Of course VR should use their knowledge and experience of other systems, but they should try to *not* mirror them because they were always badly flawed.
Traditional raid content has always been a small niche within a small niche. It would be great if it could be, for once, something everyone could enjoy.
In reality it would actually be hard to avoid similarities to other systems, of course - there are only so many ways to do multi-group content - but the approach should be to avoid the bad more than to copy the good.
That probably won't be achieved by starting from copying previous systems, in fact that effort would probably be hampered by copying previous systems.
But I guess if you're a hardcore fan of raiding in then you will call that opinion stupid...
I should say that no one was calling the OP stupid for asking the question - he clearly thinks there are good raiding systems to be copied, which is a fine opinion. Some are just expressing their opinion about the concept.
One thing that I have not really seen done other than in Alterac Valley (the WoW PVP tower defense battleground) and Relic Raids in DAoC is the concept of multi group content rather than content that takes multiple groups or better yet a mixture of both.
A raid zone that takes multiple groups working simultaneously toward the same end but each needing to be independently viable would be interesting. There could still be waves that require everyone to come back together to burn a boss but the trash would actually be just as important as the bosses. Depending on how the zone is conquered with dictate what bosses spawn and what rewards are available.
When the zone is not actively being raided it could still function as a standard leveling zone as the objectives triggering the next wave of the raid would not be achieved within the required time windows without a concerted effort. If the zone is large enough it could be possible to really require the participation of multiple 24 man raids to advance the raid sequence until a true world boss spawns that everyone can try and help kill. Only once that boss is killed would certain NPCs become available in order to trade in drops from the entire raid zone there by awarding people for both assisting in advancing the raid and encouraging them to stick around for the final boss or their gains are minimal.
Words are important. When one uses the term "mirror" one should expect the reader to think "copy with minor differences" and not be offended if the reader indeed responds appropriately. Especially in a game that *is* mirroring things from EQ and probably Vanguard. Does anyone seriously think that feign death and training and corpse runs and druid and mage teleports etc. are all in the game because they are the best way to do things and it is just a *coincidence* that they were also in EQ?
I don't think anyone doubts the wisdom of looking at ideas both old and new and saying "this would be great" or "this would be awful" and existing MMOs are manifestly a wonderful source of ideas.
disposalist said:So people express that copying or combining exact copies to make a raid system in Pantheon is not what they'd like VR to do and they get called stupid?
Not the first time I'll have been called stupid. Not the last.
However, the title has "if" and "was" in it. Opening up for discussion about what was good and could be copied and what was bad and should be avoided. I don't think anyone is stupid but I do think it's silly for the community that wants this game to be great in our eyes to remain quite on subject mechanics of the game and "hope" that VR "invents" something we will all unanimously love. Giving input (Other than "Trust in Pantheon") can't be a bad thing.
Kittik said:disposalist said:So people express that copying or combining exact copies to make a raid system in Pantheon is not what they'd like VR to do and they get called stupid?
Not the first time I'll have been called stupid. Not the last.
However, the title has "if" and "was" in it. Opening up for discussion about what was good and could be copied and what was bad and should be avoided. I don't think anyone is stupid but I do think it's silly for the community that wants this game to be great in our eyes to remain quite on subject mechanics of the game and "hope" that VR "invents" something we will all unanimously love. Giving input (Other than "Trust in Pantheon") can't be a bad thing.
I wasn't calling you stupid at all. The "if" was understood and Dorotea made a valid related point: that "if" VR copied another raid system, that would be bad.
That maybe wasn't what you wanted, but she (and I for agreeing with her) don't deserve to get abused.
If I was to ask "If Pantheon was to have instancing copied from another game, which and why?" I can well imagine a lot of people would say "you shouldn't copy instancing" and *shrug* that's a fair response.
If someone asked you "If I put peanut butter on your sandwich, do you want crunchy or smooth?" your answer may well be "Peanut butter is disgusting" or "I'm alergic" and those would be relavent and valid answers even though that's not what you asked for.
I sound like I'm being pedantic, but I'm just trying to explain. I'm probably just being over-defensive. I'll stop now... ;^)
Can we all hug and make up?
disposalist said:Can we all hug and make up?
Sounds good to me. I certianly have no wish to see anything but good come out of this or any other discussion on these forums.
oneADseven said:I want to touch on a subject that is near and dear to my heart as it pertains to raiding in MMO's. I've played plenty of games over the years and if there was one thing I noticed getting more and more popular, it was the use of "instanced raiding." Why did this become so popular? The short answer is simple ... supply vs demand. When it comes to contested content that operates on a 3-5 day respawn cycle, it's accessibility is extremely limited. Generally speaking, the first couple guilds to reach max-level would be in the best position possible to learn and master the encounter mechanics of any given fight. While the majority of a server is still leveling up, there are always a select few that are already pushing the limits of end-game content. There is always a race to see who will conquer the biggest and baddest bosses in the game.
What ends up happening is these select few players end up beating the content and putting it on farm status. Eventually, the rest of the server will catch up ... and when it comes time for them to attempt this "contested content" they quickly learn that their chances are slim to none. As soon as these encounters spawn, several competing guilds will attempt to down them. This isn't in an effort to "block" other guilds from experiencing the content, but rather to lay claim to the awesome rewards that are so commonly associated with high-end contested raid content. So for all the other guilds out there that would like to eventually take a crack at these encounters, the opportunities will be few and far between. Even if you are lucky enough to get a couple pulls in, the encounters are so tough that they usually require dozens of pulls to master the mechanics.
So after your pull is over, the competing guilds step in and attempt to down the boss using the tactics that they came up with weeks or months ago while practicing freely against the boss. Soon enough, it's laying on the ground dead and those same players are jumping with joy as they distribute the uber loot they just obtained. So where does this leave you? You really want to attempt that same boss ... you want that same loot ... but how will you get it? Do you abandon your current guild and move on to greener pastures, increasing the likelihood of you experiencing that content? Do you hold a pep rally and tell your members you'll get it next time? Well, many will be quick to remind you that you might get it next time if only you actually had the chance to battle the encounter in the first place and get those darn mechanics down. This is where the Hyper/Ghost concept comes into play.
I'm going to provide an explanation here to make sense of it. Basically, the hyper/ghost concept is something that allows competitive guilds the opportunity to compete for contested content, but also allows others to attempt that same fight afterward. Here is how it works:
"True Hyper Dragon"
Respawn: 3-5 days.
Lockout: None.
Loot: 4-6 pieces from the "Dragon Loot Table" -- 2 to 3 of which are exclusive to the "True Hyper Loot Table""Ghost Dragon"
Respawn: 30-60 minutes after any version of the "Dragon" is killed.
Lockout: 3-5 days.
Loot: 2-3 pieces from the "Dragon Loot Table" and 1 "Hyper Dragon Essence""Hyper Dragon"
Respawn: Force popped by using 3 "Hyper Dragon Essences"
Lockout: 3-5 days, shared with the "Ghost Dragon."
Loot: 3-4 pieces from the "Dragon Loot Table" 1 to 2 of which are exclusive to the "True Hyper Loot Table."
Kittik said:Maybe it's addressed later, but one isssue I see already is: What stops the uber guilds from sticking around clearing all three of these dragons? *edit* After reading the following two paragraphs the Uber guilds will have THD and GD on farm status and probably locked down. Unless after killing THD they are exempt from attempting GD.
oneADseven said:As you can see, the "True Hyper" or "THV" version is basically a bonus kill. This is the contested version that all competing guilds will be striving to conquer. After it's killed, though, it will later respawn as the "Ghost Version." This version is toned down some, both in difficulty and the quality of loot that is rewarded. Nonetheless, the ghost version is still incredibly difficult and its loot highly desirable. Upon killing the ghost version, players involved in the raid receive a lockout that prevents them from continually farming the mob as it respawns every 30-60 minutes. This gives other guilds an opportunity to experience that same content. On the flip side, successfully killing the ghost version will also reward your raid with a "hyper essence" that can be used to force pop a "Hyper Version." Once you accumulate 3 of these essences, you can transform the ghost version into the hyper version. The hyper version is nearly identical to the "True Hyper" version except for a couple of small differences. The first is that it has a lockout, and it's shared with the ghost version. The second is that the loot is slightly toned down from the true hyper version. Other than that, the encounter is the exact same.
The benefits of a system like this are abundant. Competitive guilds still have a "bonus kill" that they can compete for each and every week. Those who miss out still have the opportunity to experience the encounter and obtain some loot with the ghost version. This is invaluable as the experience is necessary if they ever want to compete for the contested version, and they still get some loot to ensure that their characters are progressing enough to have a chance to beat it. After downing the ghost version a few times, guilds then have the option to force pop the hyper version. This drops better loot and allows guilds the opportunity to experience the full version of the encounter. The more guilds who are able to kill the ghost version, the more there will be who can kill the hyper version. The more who can kill the hyper version, the more that can "compete" for the true hyper version. Not only does this make the competitive raid scene more broadly competitive (it diminishes the insurmountable power gap that can be achieved by rushing to end-game), but it also serves as a platform to keep the "gear gap" in check. It won't close the gap completely, and it shouldn't ... risk vs reward is important, and those who kill the contested version should receive their appropriate bounty. But at the end of the day, a system like this will help facilitate competitive raiding on every server while also making it more accessible to the masses.
Kittik said:So GD is an open world spawn and HD is an instanced mob?
oneADseven said:One issue I always had with competitive raiding is that these encounters have generally been the most fun encounters in the game. There are so many interesting and clever mechanics that me and my guild were able to enjoy over the years, but while we were farming these bosses, we were inadvertently preventing others from ever having a chance to experience that content, not to mention how it thwarted their ability to progress/compete. The gear gap continued to broaden and our "encounter mastery" continued to grow stronger. While we still had alliances on our server with other guilds, they were generally non-competitive raiding guilds. When it came to competition, heated rivalries ensued. I remember hearing and seeing plenty of unpleasant messages while participating in the hardcore raid scene and that's something I hope to avoid this go around. Rather than competitive guilds being viewed as the villain ... how about they get to play the role of hero for a change? How exactly could that work?
It starts with the competitive guilds taking out the "True Hyper Version." At that point, it's a free for all. Anybody and everybody can attempt it. More likely than not, there will be a few guilds who just aren't prepared for a fight of that magnitude. After the uber guild downs the true hyper version, it opens up the ghost version to everybody else. Now the guilds who couldn't necessarily kill the true hyper version might have something that they can kill. They get to learn the ropes of the fight and eventually acquire some loot that will help them grow stronger for next time. Rather than feeling "robbed" of content from another guild, they are "enabled" -- and not just for the "easy version" as some people might think. The ghost versions would still be incredibly difficult. But now they get to practice the encounter, accumulate some loot that will help them grow stronger ... and eventually have a chance to compete. I can't stress enough how important it is that guilds have the opportunity to at least experience the content. When content is purely contested, it's almost impossible for most players to learn the mechanics.
Beyond that, it's possible that downing the true hyper version has other perks and these would be temporarily accessible to everybody in the area. These wouldn't take shape as loot, but rather have an impact on the immediate territory and the NPC's who occupy it. Perhaps after a mighty dragon is killed, a new path to a nearby zone is opened up. With another boss, maybe it's the only path to a certain area that opens up. Another idea is that after a certain boss is killed, a nearby town temporarily decreases the "city tax" that is imposed on the sale of any goods purchased in the area. Maybe the local inn or tavern offers a small discount to everybody in the area as a gesture of appreciation for "Guild X" who killed the monster that was plaguing the neighborhood.
Imagine the following:
Server Impact
What if killing raid bosses had an impact on the world our characters live in? Rather than being limited to shuffling more loot into the world, why couldn't downing a pesky dragon have a noticeable impact on the immediate area nearby? Loot acquisition will always be important as it plays a vital role in power progression for our characters, but wouldn't it be cool if the impact of downing these beasts could actually make a difference in how various NPC's interact with you / each other in the world?
Kittik said:This is the dream. Choices matter. We can change the world. Also, this would ack as a sort of server unifing thing too as we could all be cheering for the Uber guilds to down the dragon. However, the Dragon should respawn faster (3x maybe) than what the lock-off timer is. That way it will encourage more guilds to kill the Dragon rather than just "relying" on one guild to always do it. Maybe for a mob like THD the lockout timer could be something truely epic. 21 days....so if Guild X kills him, he'll respawn 7 days later allowing Guild Y, respanws again 7 days later allowing Guild Z. Respawning 7 days later and the lockout timers for Guild X has expired and they can try again. But it also allows for the attempts of GD to be spawn at a more frequent rate so lesser guilds could, as you say, practice.
oneADseven said:
Opportunistic TradesmenWhen a THV raid boss is killed, opportunistic tradesmen seek to grow their fortunes by setting up shop in an area that was otherwise too dangerous while the raid boss was roaming around. These merchants could sell unique crafting components or other desirable goodies that are only accessible for a limited period while the THV bosses are dead. Other merchants such as repair vendors, ammo vendors, or food/drink vendors could also sell their wares in convenient locations now that the territory is less hostile.
Kings Reach ExtendedWhat if, every time a raid boss is killed in a certain area, there is a sense of "server progression" that takes place in the background? Perhaps there are Kings or Tribal Leaders that are looking to expand their territory and with every THV boss that is vanquished, they get one step closer. Maybe this could turn into a new tavern, inn, or outpost. Perhaps a shortcut is eventually opened up (a bridge built, tunnel excavated, etc) or elements of the faction system are adjusted. After expanding their territory, Tribe X now views kobolds as a pest to their operations and killing them now grants faction with that tribe whereas before, they didn't.
Perhaps these contested raid bosses drop some sort of building material (rare ore, metal, wood) that is highly sought after by local authorities who are trying to build a teleportation spire in the area. Let's say it requires 100 of these items to build the spire -- the guild who turns in the most can have a monument built in their name, or perhaps they could name the spire itself?
Intensely SocialAfter a guild kills an obnoxious hill giant known for pillaging fields and slaughtering cattle, word starts to spread of their good deed. Local citizens in a nearby town are more amicable and promote the reputation of the guild who came to save the day. Perhaps the taverns/inns offer a temporary discount to any/all patrons in the area, but their text dialogue now includes a shout out for the guild who killed the hill giant. "Thanks to Guild X, we were able to enjoy a full harvest this month. Please enjoy a 10% discount on our wares."
Likewise, perhaps the king in the area is willing to temporarily reduce certain fees. Whether it's sales tax, property tax, broker fees, passage fees, etc ... perhaps there can be a mildly noticeable decrease to various fees in an area after certain contested raid bosses are killed. The king could put up message boards to announce such an event "Due to Guild X vanquishing Big Bad Red Dragon, we've had many more visitors and our mercantile district is thriving. We are temporarily reducing taxes/fees until further notice."
ColiseumDoubling down on accessibility, what if, after any guilds kills a certain THV encounter, gnome scientists are able to extract samples and reproduce mechanical versions of the same encounter and allow challengers to do battle with them in their arena, for sport? They wouldn't drop the same loot of course ... but perhaps challengers would be willing to pay a fee to test these hyper versions in a neutral, more accessible location? Killing them could perhaps reward some sort of faction or token that could be exchanged with coliseum vendors to provide some sort of reward. This could be scaled to whatever feels appropriate ... but the point is to make the encounter accessible. Allow guilds to challenge themselves by doing battle with these mechanical constructs. Perhaps there could a leader board system of sorts that track various efficiency metrics such as time, death tally, DPS measurables by archetype, etc?
These are just a few ideas on how raiding can evolve in Pantheon. We can take the tried and true methods of the past, but reshape them in a way that makes them more accessible and desirable. I firmly believe that there is a prime opportunity to capture the "raid audience" from the MMO genre and lure them to Pantheon. Most of the issues that have plagued the MMO genre over the years really come down to the following variables: "Hardcore vs Casual" / "Forced vs Optional" / "Fun vs Tedious" -- I think an ideal raiding system would feature gameplay aspects that could include both hardcore and casual, be truly optional, and reinforce the idea of having fun with friends.The main takeaway is that this system does not require instancing, phasing, sharding, or /picks. Since the hyper/ghost mechanic can be applied selectively, it would allow pinpoint precision in regards to the contested/accessible factor of each individual mob. Content denial would not exist as a term in this game. Zerging would not exist. The raid scene would actually be more competitive as this kind of system would allow additional guilds to enter the competitive arena, particularly those who do not rush to end-game as fast as possible. This is more of a PVE-focused take on competition than the pseudo-PVP that occurs with DPS racing and zerging. Guilds would be able to plan/schedule some of this content which is important. When it comes to content that can be scheduled, overcoming difficult content would be the difference between have and have-not ... rather than the bat-phoning and poopsocking of the past. In the end ... it is a compromise that preserves the competitive spirit of the game, while also alleviating the cluster of nightmare that occurs when players are incentivized to sabotage eachother with degenerate play and tactic.
I like a lot of what your proposing here and I'm not programmer so I'm not sure of how difficult it would be. The more the world is truely impacted and it's because of the players is a great thing if you ask me. And I definitely agree that Raid mobs should drop the rares that crafters need to make the best armor and weapons because this feeds the need for raiding along with the need for crafting. However, THV shouldn't be the only one to drop crafting rares. Because this again, would create a single guild or two's monopolization.
BamBam said: I feel like wow always had the "Best" raids, in spite of all the themepark and addon bull****. The raid mekanic and encaunters was and has always been fun.
I agree with BamBam here. The original raiding of WoW was great - until it eventually turned into DPS races (even for the tanks). Who remembers vanilla Molten Core or Blackwing Lair before all of the mechanics were well known? That was some amazing teamwork with seemingly impossible obstacles that were perfectly tuned to be able to defeat with only a handful of different tactics. With those two particular raids, I preferred BWL due to the lack of spending weeks clearing "trash mobs" on your way to confront a boss, but the original journey to Ragnaros was epic and took months!. On the down side of that kind of raiding - PRotF is not going to have instances, which likely means a "raid" would have to be completed during a single game session... We will see how this turns out.
Sorry Kittik, I didn't notice your comments in here because of the quote brackets.
Kittik said:
Maybe it's addressed later, but one isssue I see already is: What stops the uber guilds from sticking around clearing all three of these dragons? *edit* After reading the following two paragraphs the Uber guilds will have THD and GD on farm status and probably locked down. Unless after killing THD they are exempt from attempting GD.
The ghost versions could not be locked down by anybody. The main point behind the ghost distinction revolves around accessibility. (More emphasis on being able to beat an encounter from 100-0 rather than being on-call 24/7.) If a guild kills that mob, they would be "locked" from engaging it again for a period of 3-5 days. Since the ghost version would have a much shorter respawn timer, this would allow others to attempt it. The true hyper version would be purely contested and it would be possible for players to try and lock it down ... but at least there would be a built-in countermeasure that prevents them from denying others the opportunity to learn the encounter and its mechanics.
Kittik said:So GD is an open world spawn and HD is an instanced mob?
Everything would be open-world. The ghost/lockout system would simply prevent guilds from being able to kill the mobs over and over.
Kittik said:This is the dream. Choices matter. We can change the world. Also, this would ack as a sort of server unifing thing too as we could all be cheering for the Uber guilds to down the dragon. However, the Dragon should respawn faster (3x maybe) than what the lock-off timer is. That way it will encourage more guilds to kill the Dragon rather than just "relying" on one guild to always do it. Maybe for a mob like THD the lockout timer could be something truely epic. 21 days....so if Guild X kills him, he'll respawn 7 days later allowing Guild Y, respanws again 7 days later allowing Guild Z. Respawning 7 days later and the lockout timers for Guild X has expired and they can try again. But it also allows for the attempts of GD to be spawn at a more frequent rate so lesser guilds could, as you say, practice.
This is pretty much it. The timers can be adjusted to whatever feels right. VR would have total control over just how "contested" or "accessible" each encounter is, and the frequency that their rewards could enter the world. Some content could be mostly accessible, some semi-contested, and others purely contested. Either way, content denial would not exist as a term because of how these knobs can be tuned. Everything could be safely classified as "working as intended" and with a large spectrum to choose from.
Kittik said:
I like a lot of what your proposing here and I'm not programmer so I'm not sure of how difficult it would be. The more the world is truely impacted and it's because of the players is a great thing if you ask me. And I definitely agree that Raid mobs should drop the rares that crafters need to make the best armor and weapons because this feeds the need for raiding along with the need for crafting. However, THV shouldn't be the only one to drop crafting rares. Because this again, would create a single guild or two's monopolization.
I can't really speak on the programming difficulty but most of these concepts/features have already been realized in previous MMO's. It's a blend of mechanics from FFXI/Vanguard with some extra details added for flavor. While it's possible that guilds could attempt to monopolize certain content, it wouldn't work the same way it has in open-world games for the last 20 years. Guilds wouldn't be able to rush to max-level as fast as possible in order to learn these contested bosses while there is virtually no competition, and then leverage that experience in the future when other guilds show up to contest. Players would have the chance to learn the ropes of the encounter through the ghost version and the force-popped hyper version, thus improving the competitive landscape for the true-hyper version whenever it's alive. The HV would share the same loot table as the THV, but drop fewer pieces when killed. The THV would basically serve as a bonus kill. If people want to batphone and poopsock for that, more power to them, but they would never be able to prevent others from entering the competitive arena for any encounter that falls under this umbrella.