If Pantheon was to mirror the raiding aspect of one game, or combine a couple apsects from different games what games, aspects and why?
I myself have only raided high end content on EQ2 and I did that for many years so my knowledge of different raiding aspects from different games is limited, but with that said, if Pantheon mirrored the raiding that EQ2 had circa 2007-10 (Rise of Kunark - Sentinel's Fate) that would be considered a win in my book.
I enjoyed that abilities where not telegraphed but you had to pay attention to scripts. (Eventually, this was all very easy to cheat at with plug-ins) But what would be nice is if there are a few different scripts. I know eventually this would all be gathered in plug-in's, but at least it might take longer).
I also enjoyed the requirement of each class to really be able to play their class well to get past some encounters. i.e. Crowd Control, DSP control, restricted abilities.
Raiding in those days was some of the most enjoyable gaming I've ever had.
Mordecai said: I really enjoyed EQ1s raiding. But agree with Bam the mechanics on wow was very fun. Don’t remember having a “boring” encounter. As far as mirroring any other games? I don’t know. I am just looking forward to seeing what VR has planned for Pantheon.
True but this could also be a chance for them to read the forums and see "Oh *bleep* thats a mechanic no one liked, we might want to rethink that."
WoW probably had the best raiding, which isn't saying much. EQ had the most epic feeling raids though. Open world raiding just had a whole different feeling than an instanced raid. Instance raiding feels processed and not apart of the world.
I would hope that in terms of raiding...and bosses in general that they have multiple patterns and dispositions that make fighting them different. Not saying all the time, but enough to where you don't really know what might happen.
For me, the raids of the EQ1 were the best and I think they are the ones that best match the pantheon style of the open world
The things I liked was that it was not a requirement to be a maximum level to go (which means that you do not feel that it only matters to reach the maximum level to enjoy)
I also liked that there was no maximum number of people attending the meetings (which means that you don't have to leave people in your guild out of the raid that's not fun)
I also liked that the main mechanics of the boss was not to enter X minutes in enrage (which activates the other two situations plus another third to bring people who are not max lvl is not harmful and bring extra people did not mean a guaranteed victory since the mechanics was not based on the raid's dps and the third one that he mentioned before is that he did not exclude any class even if he is not as strong as others
Vandraad said:Why do you want a mirror of some other game? Why not hope that we get something that is different? Something that may include some aspects here and there of other games but on the whole is new?
Thanks for this. My thoughts exactly. No game should "mirror" any aspect of any other game imo. It's lazy and doesn't make for a cohesive product. Use some creativity, some innovation, and think about what's best for this game on its own. No system is without flaws, so it's best to not just copy/paste and bring those same problems to a new game - that's not how progress is made.
Vandraad said:Why do you want a mirror of some other game? Why not hope that we get something that is different? Something that may include some aspects here and there of other games but on the whole is new?
Maybe they ARE trying to design something new. And then they see this thread and see that the majority of people are saying they like X and the system they are designing is the complete opposite. At least with this thread the infomation to design a system that will be liked is out there.
To me EQ1 all the way.
I've seen wow raids on videos, it's closer to a FPS than a RPG to me. You have to jump, run and duck every 2 seconds.. it's exhausting just watching it.
I am looking for a game that use the brain more than the reflexes. It's nice when you spot a problem and have some time to think/figure out the solution. Giving time to analize and reply accordingly.
Instead of just learning what you need to do in advance and just apply the strat pressing 120 keys/min. Having to "spoil" yourself, by learning the fight prior to do it, cause the "difficutly" of the event is just the speed of the mechanics.
Mechanics can be good, but negating your character's abilities on every raids by making him crowl, run backwards, and sing a song while holding a barrel, is not fun at all to me.
Bazgrim said:Vandraad said:Why do you want a mirror of some other game? Why not hope that we get something that is different? Something that may include some aspects here and there of other games but on the whole is new?
Thanks for this. My thoughts exactly. No game should "mirror" any aspect of any other game imo. It's lazy and doesn't make for a cohesive product. Use some creativity, some innovation, and think about what's best for this game on its own. No system is without flaws, so it's best to not just copy/paste and bring those same problems to a new game - that's not how progress is made.
This would just be a silly waste of time and resources. There are many great raiding systems out there. So using those as a building start point is probably a good idea. Having them "exactly" the same is lame and lazy yes. But hearing that a large part of your customer based really enjoyed a certain thing and then to avoid doing something like it and try to "create" something entirely new is just plain dumb.
No need to reinvent the wheel as they say.
What I'm trying to say is look at one of the video's they put out about a Boss encounter. In that encounter they had clear visual indications of what was going to happen and where the "bad" place to stand would be. Thats lame and lazy and I don't think anyone here would apprecaite that type of mechanic. However, if they hear us say. "We loved seeing that, thats exactly what we want!", then proceeding with that style and decision would be an obvious choice instead of wasting time and energy "inventing" something new.
Kittik said:Vandraad said:Why do you want a mirror of some other game? Why not hope that we get something that is different? Something that may include some aspects here and there of other games but on the whole is new?
Maybe they ARE trying to design something new. And then they see this thread and see that the majority of people are saying they like X and the system they are designing is the complete opposite. At least with this thread the infomation to design a system that will be liked is out there.
Or it can gives ideas and feedback, which is always nice.
I have played many games over the years and there are many mechanics that I have enjoyed and wouldn't mind seeing during my experience on Terminus. However, I wouldn't want to see VR completely mirror any of these encounters specifically. Pantheon is its own game with its own identity and design philosophy and as such, it needs to be able to stand on its own. If Pantheon was to mirror another game's raiding design then it really wouldn't stem from Pantheon's own identity and would probably lead to another clone being placed on the market.
There are aspects that I don't want to see through,
1. One trend I don't want them to mirror though is the concept of having Healers being forced into dps roles. That is not our job and it is definitely not why I enjoy playing healers.
2. Another trend that I don't want to see is overly scripted fights. Scripting to some degree is necessary to design an encounter. however FFXIV encounters are something that I consider to be too scripted. I also think that if you require an addon to complete the fight you have entered into the zone of overly scripted. If you need an example of this go youtube WoW Mythic Queen Ashara encounter. That encounter is designed specifically around the use of DBM, and there is so much information being thrown at the player/raid completing the encounter is an impossibility without the addon.
3. A strict class meta is also something that I don't want to see. I feel that in a raiding environment every class should have its place and should be a viable consideration for the raid leader composing the team. There shouldn't be any of this "O lets take a warrior and a dire lord tank because pally tanks are sub-par", or "O let's take 3 clerics and 2 druids because shamans are eh". Personally, if I am leveling a character I want that character to be viable at all stages of the game. Now I do understand that there will be certain encounters where specific classes outshine other classes and this is fine. However, it shouldn't be that class or that class combination dominating in every encounter.
If the content was up and you were not being rushed to tag, EQ raid content was pretty fun if fairly simple in mechanics. If you were not one of the 3 premier raid guilds on your server then EQ raid content was garbage/non-existent as it was never up.
WoW was always available (if only once a week) and had tons of interesting mechanics thrown in. Once you learned the mechanics though and had the content on farm its was just repetitive and boring and you almost felt like you were a slave to your raid timer to make sure you always made your raid. Due to content always being available many lower skilled players attempted the content and constantly failed until Blizzard had to nerf nearly every raid encounter until they added difficulties. Add into the fact that end game raiding was really the purpose of WoW and you have the hyper mudflattion and gear merry-go-round that is poisoning the MMO space.
What I would like to see for Pantheons Raid structure.
1) Diminishing returns by character level and dynamic scaling content such that a level 30 raid can still be challenging to the target number of level 50 players even after the 10th time defeating it.
2) Raid content that is more based on triggers and zone spawn cycles that can be manipulated rather than purely a respawn time with a variance and a race to the target. There can be some rare spawn first to engage targets but I would rather they be mostly single group content. (I am even ok with a few instanced raids, not based on a weekly timer, if the mechanics and lore call for it so long as it doesn’t become common)
3) If diminishing returns by character level is not achievable and Pantheon falls into the exponential power growth trap then I want to see raid challenge ratings. If you defeat a level 30 raid with all level 30 or lower players it gives better loot than if you had even one level 50 in the group. For purpose of content access players can mentor down to the target level and count as that level for the purpose of setting the challenge rating. Will require an effective mentor system I would propose that the mentor system could convert your character to a generic character of your class/race/target level with configurable actions bars.
I think a combo between eq1 and wow would be a nice hit. Ramp tanking, Hard hitting bosses with high resistances to certain spells and such were always had to be planned around, which is something eq1 did a lot of and in its own way was challenging in its day, but i also think having a bit of a mechanic that requires to move a bit in each encounter is also nice, that way it isnt a tank n spank like Avatar of War was. Even with AoW being very easy in terms of mechanic his hard hitting ability was very hard to heal through and i think that is a goal to implement. Bosses not only raid bosses but even high end dungeon bosses should be extremely spiky in their damage output that way you cant just look at a health bar and be like ok when they hit 70% hp ill start my heal knowing when it end they would be at 50%hp and go to 85% hp and wait for 70% again, that's BORING! EQ did this bueatifully honestly, I've seen a tank litterally lose almost no health in a set of heals, but than in 3 seconds or less be facing face down in the dirt before the next wave, this makes it hard in its own right, but i think we need this with a mechanic that doesn't make it mindless which is what WoW was good at you had to recognize what the boss was doing and what you had to do to either avoid or midigate what he was doing to defeat him, and i believe mixing the 2 would be a recipe for success.
Well the one thing that comes to mind regarding groups/raids is, that IF they include a group finder mechanic, they allow the person looking to exclude groups who are currently engaging in content. I don't want to pop in to kill the boss or find myself in a group that should have disbanded already
Aarpoch said:I don't think it shoudl mirror any other game. If i wanted to play a game that mirrored then I'd just go play that game. I'm excited about Pantheon for it's fresh take on things.
Ok. Yes EVERYONE. Me too, we all want this. Wa all want Pantheon to be new, innovative, freash, different. Awesome. Their own! Not a copy! Brand f'in new!!!! Ok, I f'in get it, but we also want it released this lifetime. So taking proven good mechanics and design's is not a bad thing and which freakin' one's do you like the most FFS!!!
