5 hours into P99 Green today and I'm level 4. Died many times and had the dreaded corpse run to deal with. Painful, but needed and worth it. Every kill feels more satisfying than any other game I've played because I almost die every fight.
The joy of getting that level is immense. This is what games today are missing.
The lack of skill/abilites in the early game. The extreamly slow leveling already. The need for a group. These might seem like a no, but the truely make the game feel different. Better. EQ is out dated by 2 decades but that "something" about it is its requirement for effort.
Kittik said:The lack of skill/abilites in the early game. The extreamly slow leveling already. The need for a group. These might seem like a no, but the truely make the game feel different. Better. EQ is out dated by 2 decades but that "something" about it is its requirement for effort.
Well said and I agree. just curious have you played EQ prior to P99?
Yeah for a brief time between UO and DAoC. Played a couple toons, most notabily a Paladin all the way up to level 15.
This is not personal towards you kittik. It is something we see over and over again on these forums. This is just another example.
Many people don't get that the saying "the game starts at end game" stemmed from EQ. The leveling process was the tutorial. There are plenty of people here who have a skewed perspective of what original EQ was because they have either only played P99 or never experienced original EQ enough to have a good grasp of everything the game had to offer.
I'm not saying I am in favor of Pantheon being the same...where the game is focused on end game and that is where things really start to open up for the players.
That is not what I want at all for Pantheon.
But that is what EQ was which is why we see the variety of perpsectives from people who only experienced portions of what the game was.
For example, the leveling process on p99 works out to be much quicker than it was during original eq for a few reasons. Some people think the experience was the same as original eq and that shows a misunderstanding. This type of misunderstanding is repeated over and over on these forums and sometimes it might help to remind people that the experience was not the same so that information doesnt get twisted.
I don't disagree with anyone here, but I think modern MMORPGs need to be realistic. The modern MMORPG player probably did not play EQ and has no idea what you all are referring to. They have been raised with games that cater to a different mindset. Expecting modern players to "just get" the way EQ was great is probably very unlikely and unreasonable. So modern games, if they are going to make money and be enjoyable to more than just a handful of old-timers, need to cater somewhat to modern gamers' expectations. Just my $0.02.
philo said:This is not personal towards you kittik. It is something we see over and over again on these forums. This is just another example.
Many people don't get that the saying "the game starts at end game" stemmed from EQ. The leveling process was the tutorial. There are plenty of people here who have a skewed perspective of what original EQ was because they have either only played P99 or never experienced original EQ enough to have a good grasp of everything the game had to offer.
I'm not saying I am in favor of Pantheon being the same...where the game is focused on end game and that is where things really start to open up for the players.
That is not what I want at all for Pantheon.
But that is what EQ was which is why we see the variety of perpsectives from people who only experienced portions of what the game was.
For example, the leveling process on p99 works out to be much quicker than it was during original eq for a few reasons. Some people think the experience was the same as original eq and that shows a misunderstanding. This type of misunderstanding is repeated over and over on these forums and sometimes it might help to remind people that the experience was not the same so that information doesnt get twisted.
I have to respectfully disagree with this. I played EQ from 1999 to late 2004 when EQ2 came out and then WoW shortly thereafter. I then played both of those extensively as well. I also went back to EQ a handful of time, played on the TLPs and on P99. At no point during playing EQ was it ever thought of as the game starts at end game. The journey in EQ is what made it good. It was an adventure all the way, exploring new zones, dungeons, etc. You had the time to do this while leveling because progression was at a slower pace.
However that pace was sped up in EQ2 and WoW compared to Classic EQ and that's where it started to be that the game started at end game. Leveling in those games was quicker and was more a means to an end. That's not to say that EQ didn't have endgame raiding like EQ2 and WoW, but it didn't feel like the game started at endgame like those two games because of the journey. Leveling in WoW, at least more recent WoW is more like a chore you need to do before you get to the fun stuff. I'd argue the fun stuff occurred during EQ the whole time.
Also the character progression is completely different between those games. In EQ, there was plenty of time to learn all of your classes tricks and nuances by the time you got to max level because you were afforded that time to learn as you went because of the slower progession. I've met people in WoW who leveled so fast they didn't even fully know how to play their characters at max level.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we can agree to disagree, but I'm just not seeing how you got that from EQ.
HairballHacker said:I don't disagree with anyone here, but I think modern MMORPGs need to be realistic. The modern MMORPG player probably did not play EQ and has no idea what you all are referring to. They have been raised with games that cater to a different mindset. Expecting modern players to "just get" the way EQ was great is probably very unlikely and unreasonable. So modern games, if they are going to make money and be enjoyable to more than just a handful of old-timers, need to cater somewhat to modern gamers' expectations. Just my $0.02.
Hairball, I respectfully disagree. Gamers today are of a different mindset, yes, and that mindset is created by weak backboned game devs who listened to a very vocal minority and changed the dynamics of games to cater to those players. The changes have mostly been of an instant gratification system seen in almost ever aspect of life today.
Pantheon doesn't need to cater to EQ 'old guys' to be profitable. Many many many will try it and be completely turned off by the 'difficulty' (if rumors are to be believed) but the thing is (as long as VR doesn't bow to the vocal minority that is surely going to rear it's ugly head) those gamers will come back. Because everyone loves a challenge. Yes, we all want rewards and that is evedent by the instant gratification world we live in. But not getting what you want right away is an even bigger draw than getting what you want right away. So those that leave "because it's difficult" will come back. Because they need to beat it, they want to get that reward and deep down, they know they there is joy in effort.
philo said:I question if you experienced all the game had to offer mandolorian. Many people dabbled and that is exactly why they have a different view of how things were. Your post seems like just another example that proves my point.
But like you said, we can agree to disagree.
I played EQ from 1999 until well into PoP and I did the raiding guild thing back then. I also played P99 more recently until hitting similar high level (but much quicker - a few months). I've played just about every MMORPG over the years since - almost always to 'end-game'.
For me and for everyone I know well (even in the raiding guilds) EQ was not as much fun at the 'end-game' as the getting there was. The end-game was a grind you had to endure with your beloved high-level characters. By the nature of being high level in a level-based game, there was little else that was challenging to do.
I know a lot of folk just rushed to the end-game and did the competitive raiding cycle from then on, but in my experience, a *lot* more folk did the raiding thing for a while and then made an alt and started again. Every time a new race or class appeared, they started again and again.
I seriously think, although they considered themselves 'the cream' of the players because they were doing 'the hardest' content 24/7, the competitive raiding types were by far the minority.
I'm not going to say that one type of player was 'wrong' or 'right'. Both types often appear to believe that the other 'missed the point' of the game...
The vast majority of players were not hardcore raiders even as the population aged, though. I would say at least as many people tried it for some time, like me, and disliked it, dabbled and re-started again and again.
Maybe VR can make it less of a grind that felt like a stressful job? hehe
It's a bit like a shooter making a game tailored toward the competitive eSports players and wannabes. 99.99% of 'normal' players would probably find it awful.
I'm just hoping VR realise traditional end-game raiding isn't the 'ideal' or the 'opiteme' of the MMORPG experience. They could do that by making it more accessible to all. By not doing it just at high level end game. By having other things to do at end game. By making the pre-end-game much more challenging. Etc.
I have faith VR are aware and are indeed doing 'stuff' to address this.
I think we can have both. I know for my first character, I will probably rush to get max level, server firsts when I can, etc. I will take several weeks off work at launch and push the envelope.
However, once that's done. I will spend many months exploring everything I can with alts, where the journey matters.
You can have both worlds,
Beefcake said:I think we can have both. I know for my first character, I will probably rush to get max level, server firsts when I can, etc. I will take several weeks off work at launch and push the envelope.
I hate to admit it, but that is probably going to be me. I really only have two vacations I'm interested in...1) chasing Smallmouth at Dale Hollow...2) PRotF launch.
Lots of people say "I did the raiding guild thing" as dispo said.
That is because such a large portion of the game from kunark, and growing from there, was focused on raiding the end game. Even those who have no concept of how focused the content was on end game raided a little bit.
But it's one of those things where if you weren't at least in a top 5 or 10 guild on your server and didnt raid every day for 8 or more hours for years at a time you just scratched the surface. That is how focused the content was on end game.
That is why is seems so ridiculous when people think EQ was about the leveling process. The way the end game was designed, the amount of end game content dwarfed the leveling process.
It's not about being a good or bad player or being hardcore or not. It's simply about experiencing all of the content (as was intended when players weren't over leveled/over geared) so that a person can give an accurate assessment of the game as a whole because they experienced everything in its entirety.
Again, I'm not saying I want that for Pantheon. Thats just how EQ was and that is why we see so many differences of opinion from people who didnt get the entire EQ experience...as this thread proves. It is just another example.
((That is why is seems so ridiculous when people think EQ was about the leveling process.))
Some of us tend to overlook how widely varying our playstyles could be. Someone with 5 or 10 or 20 alts could spend an *enormous* amount of time just leveling and crafting. Never forget crafting and harvesting as time sinks.
Also many people legitimately play MMOs for the lore and to enjoy the scenery and see the world. To talk to other people - to be active in guilds - even if they *never* raid. To relax and take their time - raids aren't known for going slowly and accomodating anyone that wants to see all of the dungeon and take their time with any conversations.
In other words - I think "ridiculous" isn't really the right word here. Too reminiscent of "my way or the highway". Don't fall into the trap of feeling that because your style is so obviously right for you that there aren't thousands of others in the same game that may feel otherwise.
philo said:I question if you experienced all the game had to offer mandolorian. Many people dabbled and that is exactly why they have a different view of how things were. Your post seems like just another example that proves my point.
But like you said, we can agree to disagree.
Seriously dude you crack me up. You got that I just "dabbled" in EQ from my post? I was in a high end raiding guild up through GoD and OoW when the content was current. Content that was actually overtuned for the current level of the playerbase at that time and is rated as some of the hardest raiding content due to it's bugs and overtuning. I also had my epic 1.5 and was just shy of getting my 2.0 before I left. I was also heavily involved in crafting and was in charge of spell research for our guild. I was an officer and the necro class lead for our guild. But I guess just because you say things are a certain way, that's the only way it could be. Just because you have high end raiding content, doesn't mean that the journey is irrelevant and that raiding content is the only thing that matters.
So what exactly would one have to do in EQ for you to deem it relevant and not just "scratching the surface"? I'm genuinely curious. So you didn't prove anything in your post except show that it's ignorant in nature and lacking proof of any kind.
Agree to disagree for sure lol
Kittik said:5 hours into P99 Green today and I'm level 4. Died many times and had the dreaded corpse run to deal with. Painful, but needed and worth it. Every kill feels more satisfying than any other game I've played because I almost die every fight.
The joy of getting that level is immense. This is what games today are missing.
Started playing EQ for the first time today - Necro level 14 right now. I blame you guys for this!
philo said: You just listed a bunch of things that were after EQs prime..epic 1.5 and 2.0. (Not the time frame in question when people refer back to early EQ.) You mentioned you played eq2 and wow and then went back to EQ later. Another major reason for different perspectives is people playing after the game changed. I think we can all agree that EQ does not provide the same experience today that it did early on. When that change started is open to some debate. I've heard people say it started changing after Velious, I tend to think it was more after Luclin but the majority definitely say Pop was the complete downhill slide. It all just proves my point of why people have different perspectives. It's not about the way someone plays being better or worse than another. It's simply about having a skewed perspective because of not experiencing everything the game had to offer during the time in question. The reason this conversation started was because some posters seemed to think that the p99 leveling speed was equal to early EQ. Skewed perspectives about EQ are so common here it becomes silly at times for a variety of reasons. It was a reminder, even if some people dont seem to want to hear it...
My first post listed I played from 1999 to 2004. EQ launched in 1999, so not sure how I played AFTER it's prime lol. I had my duck stick in era prior to epic 1.5 and 2.0, so I guess original epics were "after" EQ's prime as well lol? You are just scewing things to fit your narrative at this point, so I'm done here.
If you haven't heard...or didn't realize... the old saying that "the game starts at the endgame" in reference to EQ then you definitely have a different point of view than many other people.
That ^ isn't something I made up hah. But again, that is my point about different people's perspective of how things were.
I'm happy to discuss it further if you want to pm me. We have derailed this thread enough. There are a few things I find odd that I'd like to ask you about...if you are still willing to have a conversation?
philo said:...
That is why is seems so ridiculous when people think EQ was about the leveling process. The way the end game was designed, the amount of end game content dwarfed the leveling process.
...
EDIT: Philo, I don't mean to have a go - I got a bit ranty at one particular aspect of your posts even though I largely agree with your other aspects - I'm leaving it here but see my next post first maybe hehe.
And it seems equally ridiculous when people imply the game was all about the end game raiding.
It was a small minority that were hardcore raiding. There were an equal number of people at least (probably way more) that got to that level, tried it and were completely turned off by it (and all the poop that went with it) so went and made an alt. There were a lot of people like me that did some raiding and enjoyed it as a change of pace occassionally but much prefered dungeon runs and grouping and more casual, relaxing, fun activities.
Just because a minority of players obsessively raiding 24/7 thought they were the 'best' and 'ideal' of EQ players doesn't make it so.
Players like me often felt bad for them. It was like a stressful job doing that stuff. You would see them or read about them getting in huge disputes and arguments. Sure if you genuinely enjoy it, then good for you, but it looked awful a lot of the time in some of those hardcore guilds. And, yes, I did dip my toe with the more demanding guilds and was turned off by the intense politics and whatnot too.
They sure seemed the loudest in demanding content, though. The rest of us (the majority of players) were happily playing through again.
Come to think of it a lot of the rest were quite loud in asking for non-raid content for future expansions and got it with new races, classes and lands and we got it as time went by and happily re-played again as other races and classes.
If it was all about raiding, why did they bother developing that horizontal stuff?
People need to start realising that competitive play and raiding and whatnot was a *different* way to play and it was not enjoyable to a *lot* of players. That didn't mean they *couldn't* do it or that they were worse playersnot deserving of VR's notice, it meant they simply didn't enjoy it and preferred to do other things.
I'm hoping there are enough VR devs that realise that raiding is not the zenith of MMORPGs and if that becomes the focus yet again then there will be a *lot* of disappointed players.
Luckily VR appear to talk a lot about the value of the journey, of exploring and of various horizontal progressions.
When they talk about community and socialising they don't appear to just mean hardcore guilds and organising into an efficient raid force...
"The way the end game was designed, the amount of end game content dwarfed the leveling process"
Huh? If you mean the amount of time it took was sometimes enormous, then yes, but that was the choice of the raiders. Some raids took hours to assemble and then 5 minutes to execute. Some raids took much longer than they should because another guild was attempting to hamper the effort... that was always 'fun' (not).
Repeating the same raids over and over wasn't 'more' content.
Some raid bosses were preceded by excellent dungeons, but non-raid groups would also use that content (and get trampled all over if a raid came through).
"If you haven't heard...or didn't realize... the old saying that "the game starts at the endgame" in reference to EQ then you definitely have a different point of view than many other people. "
And if you believe that is a literally true saying to anything other than a minority of players then you have a different point of view to very many people.
It's weird you seem to accept that different people have different view points but then imply hardcore raiders have the more valid one in some way. Or have I misunderstood? I'm sure there are a lot of hardcore raiders that raced to end-game in the most efficient manner and missed out a ton of content. Never traded or crafted. Never hung around in PUGs. Never explored for fun. How does that make them experience all the game has to offer?
I think my previous post got a bit ranty - sorry - but I'm leaving it there because I think it's valid... mostly. I admit I get prickly when I see hardcore competitive raiding held up as any kind of 'best' model for MMORPGs.
I see you said
"I'm not saying I am in favor of Pantheon being the same...where the game is focused on end game and that is where things really start to open up for the players.
That is not what I want at all for Pantheon."
So... cool ;^)
I'm not disagreeing that the later EQ expansions and P99 are not the same as early EQ, but to suggest that unless you've extensively raided in early EQ you somehow don't get what EQ was? Huh?
Everyone had different experiences of even EQ. Some never played it. Some only played Vanguard. Some only WoW though see its many shortcomings and are interested in something different. Maybe some are just interested in a 'new' MMORPG and never played one before.
Those people are all here and all have thier own viewpoints, of course. There's no harm in people discussing their opinions. Some will have more varied experience behind them than others.
It's up to VR to have a vision of their own. They may take into account some people's wants and needs more than others. We shouldn't discount anyone's views though or we'll maybe miss some gems. There is a tendency in these forums to bash down anyone's opinions that it's felt might influence the devs in a way we don't like. That sucks.
I loved early EQ (it went wrong before PoP but that's when I gave up - that's just how I feel though - I'm not saying I'm somehow 'right') but I'm not wanting a remake or suggesting it was the best MMORPGs can be or even suggesting what *part* of the early EQ experience was somehow 'best' or most valid. I hope VR don't take into account too strongly any one group's idea of what is 'best'.
To swing it back to the OP, although P99 is not just like early EQ, it's as close as there is (way more than 'live' EQ) and it is a very good thing for people to try if they never tried EQ. It will help people gain some perspective on the discussions here that relate to EQ, but, yes they should remember that P99 is not just like early EQ.
I went back to play P99 (blue many months ago) and had great fun for months but hit the same end game frustrations as I did in the old days. I barely scratched the raiding scene in P99, though. As I've explained elsewhere, I didn't love it back in the day and it seemed pretty much just as 'intense' on P99.
Been playing P1999 also, 17 mage right now. The grind is real. I got to around lvl 40 in WoW classic by the time I got to 17 in P1999. It's been good fun.
@philo will have to disagree with you on EQ being end game focused. Played in 2000- whenever OOW came out. People tended to raid the lower end raids when the higher end raiders moved on, but most of the time people didn't really care. When I first played EQ I didn't even know what an end game was or raiding, I just played blissfully ignorant. Was a good time. Most people I knew were like that. This is ancedotole, but even though I just started in Kunark I will say that the atmospher was definetly in exploring and dungeoning with fellow friends and adventurers than min/maxing and finding the best spots for exp and gear. With the modern mindset I now have I tend to be more min/maxing as I have now experienced the top end raiding content with the top end players. However, going back to p1999 green and pushing myself solo has made me give up on getting to the higher levels quickly just by virtue of the grind being way longer and real life.
Mandalorian2K said:philo said:I question if you experienced all the game had to offer mandolorian. Many people dabbled and that is exactly why they have a different view of how things were. Your post seems like just another example that proves my point.
But like you said, we can agree to disagree.
Seriously dude you crack me up. You got that I just "dabbled" in EQ from my post? I was in a high end raiding guild up through GoD and OoW when the content was current. Content that was actually overtuned for the current level of the playerbase at that time and is rated as some of the hardest raiding content due to it's bugs and overtuning. I also had my epic 1.5 and was just shy of getting my 2.0 before I left. I was also heavily involved in crafting and was in charge of spell research for our guild. I was an officer and the necro class lead for our guild. But I guess just because you say things are a certain way, that's the only way it could be. Just because you have high end raiding content, doesn't mean that the journey is irrelevant and that raiding content is the only thing that matters.
So what exactly would one have to do in EQ for you to deem it relevant and not just "scratching the surface"? I'm genuinely curious. So you didn't prove anything in your post except show that it's ignorant in nature and lacking proof of any kind.
Agree to disagree for sure lol
Gates and Omens were some of my fav raid experiences in EQ1.