disposalist said:Fulton said:I agree that travel should be meaningful, but after you've played 40-50 levels, it becomes a chore if there aren't some sort of ways to speed up the trip.
It's not like Druids and Wizards would be created with the ability to port at level1. It would take time before the ability to port will be accessible to even the casual players. Just from a monetary standpoint, the first few porters will make good cash porting those that can pay what will likely be premium prices, until there is plenty of service providers to drive down the cost to the point the casual players can afford it.
I think people are thinking too much of early game and forcing travel, versus the reality that this won't happen overnight.
In EQ porting was a goldmine.
If the classic EQ arbitrary assigning of group proting to Druids and Wizards is followed, I anticipate the Dial-A-Port guild being created on release day and within weeks having characters high enough level to do it. They will then quickly be the richest guild and, again if the EQ model is followed, anyone with the cash can have themselves or their level 1 alts and friends ported around and travel will be trivialised to an Uber service.
Yay.
Yes, but ultimately isn't that going to happen anyway, it's just a matter if it's in week 1 or year 1?
I'm all for finding ways to slow the progression overall, but I don't see making porting ability a quest you have to repeat over and over as a solution.
Start simple, that you can't port or be ported until you have visited the desitination.
Use consumbales to port.
Make porting not so direct (I suggested something in a topic not long ago, about how ports don't just go everywhere, but you may have to go through a couple locations to get there), and put a timer on porting. Once you have ported you have "porting nausea" and can't be ported againt for 5,10,15 mins. Now a non-direct route will take much longer. Solving the instant travel concern.
Take that last one one step farther, that to get from point A to point B, you may have to pass through C and D, but D is a wizard only port, so now you need to get services from 2 classes to get there.
Like I said, I am all for solutions, but ultimately, do any of us really beleive that some group won't find a way to game the system and use it to gain and advantage early on? So do we add artificial barries to stop them, while just needlessly complicating things for everyone else?
What is the balance? I don't know.
dorotea said:*Yaladan and Watemper. I believe your analogy to a healer's ability to resurrect is less than persuasive. If we are going to compare the special abilities of classes it makes more sense to compare combat abilities with combat abilities and ancillary abilities with ancillary abilities. All classes need to have abilities that will be important in combat and the immediate aftermath of combat. If not, some classes will be pariahs when groups are formed. It is less important for all classes to have equivilant non-combat abilities but it still is desirable not to give one class *much* better abilities than other classes for obvious reasons.
So if unlimited teleports will be so *strong* an attraction for people to create wizards and druids that there will be a boatload of them compared to other classes playing the same roles - we should limit the attractiveness of the teleport ability until things balance out.
But keeping combat abilities balanced between the various classes is a horse of an entirely different colour.
You mean we should all get bard speed. sow, etc..I wasn't just relating to clerics although we don't have all the class abilities/spells defined as of today my point is that where do we draw the line as to what we all want to pre-nerf before we have had any testing done.
dorotea said:*Yaladan and Watemper. I believe your analogy to a healer's ability to resurrect is less than persuasive. If we are going to compare the special abilities of classes it makes more sense to compare combat abilities with combat abilities and ancillary abilities with ancillary abilities.
The only resurrect that we know of that mentions any sort of experience return is a non-combat ability, so it fits the same utility/ancillary sphere as teleports do.
Lord knows getting exp resurrections in EQ often cost players far more than teleports, so lets get rid of that ability in Pantheon too. And any sort of corpse summoning, player summoning, clarity, etc. Anything that might save time or notably increase player efficiency.
((Like I said, I am all for solutions, but ultimately, do any of us really beleive that some group won't find a way to game the system and use it to gain and advantage early on? So do we add artificial barries to stop them, while just needlessly complicating things for everyone else?))
There are simple ways to reduce the extent people can game the system. Whether or not they work as well as more complex ways is, of course, the issue. The following are some of the simple suggestions that have been made. Not in any particular order and definitely with no implication that all or even most of these need to be adopted.
1. Require the teleporter to be a high level. Currently this seems to be the intent.
2. Require the teleporter to be even higher level to teleport others. Currently this seems to be the intent.
3. Limit teleport locations so that they add some convenience but do not make the world too small.
4. Limit the locations you can get to from any particular location. Do not allow teleports from anywhere on the grid to anywhere else on the grid.
5. Require the teleporter to have done something to unlock the teleport ability, the portal being used and/or the destination portal.
6. Limit the times during which the teleport grid is available. As in "sorry, wrong time of the month, no teleports this week".
7. Limit the number of times any character can cast a teleport.
8. Limit the number of times any caracter can receive a teleport.
9. Require the recipient of a teleport to be a certain level or higher - perhaps the level needed to cast the teleport. No easy travel for low levels because they have a multi-box capability, a guild with high level teleporters or have been twinked and are rich enough to hire teleporters.
dorotea said:((Like I said, I am all for solutions, but ultimately, do any of us really beleive that some group won't find a way to game the system and use it to gain and advantage early on? So do we add artificial barries to stop them, while just needlessly complicating things for everyone else?))
There are simple ways to reduce the extent people can game the system. Whether or not they work as well as more complex ways is, of course, the issue. The following are some of the simple suggestions that have been made. Not in any particular order and definitely with no implication that all or even most of these need to be adopted.
1. Require the teleporter to be a high level. Currently this seems to be the intent.
2. Require the teleporter to be even higher level to teleport others. Currently this seems to be the intent.
3. Limit teleport locations so that they add some convenience but do not make the world too small.
4. Limit the locations you can get to from any particular location. Do not allow teleports from anywhere on the grid to anywhere else on the grid.
5. Require the teleporter to have done something to unlock the teleport ability, the portal being used and/or the destination portal.
6. Limit the times during which the teleport grid is available. As in "sorry, wrong time of the month, no teleports this week".
7. Limit the number of times any character can cast a teleport.
8. Limit the number of times any caracter can receive a teleport.
9. Require the recipient of a teleport to be a certain level or higher - perhaps the level needed to cast the teleport. No easy travel for low levels because they have a multi-box capability, a guild with high level teleporters or have been twinked and are rich enough to hire teleporters.
These are all pre-nerfs in general, lets do this also with all other abilities while we are at it. Nerf it all before we test it!!
dorotea said:((Like I said, I am all for solutions, but ultimately, do any of us really beleive that some group won't find a way to game the system and use it to gain and advantage early on? So do we add artificial barries to stop them, while just needlessly complicating things for everyone else?))
There are simple ways to reduce the extent people can game the system. Whether or not they work as well as more complex ways is, of course, the issue. The following are some of the simple suggestions that have been made. Not in any particular order and definitely with no implication that all or even most of these need to be adopted.
1. Require the teleporter to be a high level. Currently this seems to be the intent.
2. Require the teleporter to be even higher level to teleport others. Currently this seems to be the intent.
3. Limit teleport locations so that they add some convenience but do not make the world too small.
4. Limit the locations you can get to from any particular location. Do not allow teleports from anywhere on the grid to anywhere else on the grid.
5. Require the teleporter to have done something to unlock the teleport ability, the portal being used and/or the destination portal.
6. Limit the times during which the teleport grid is available. As in "sorry, wrong time of the month, no teleports this week".
7. Limit the number of times any character can cast a teleport.
8. Limit the number of times any caracter can receive a teleport.
9. Require the recipient of a teleport to be a certain level or higher - perhaps the level needed to cast the teleport. No easy travel for low levels because they have a multi-box capability, a guild with high level teleporters or have been twinked and are rich enough to hire teleporters.
Good summary list, now we need to look at pro's and con's of each item, who it benefits, who it adversly affects.
1. Require the teleporter to be a high level. Currently this seems to be the intent.
2. Require the teleporter to be even higher level to teleport others. Currently this seems to be the intent.
3. Limit teleport locations so that they add some convenience but do not make the world too small.
4. Limit the locations you can get to from any particular location. Do not allow teleports from anywhere on the grid to anywhere else on the grid.
5. Require the teleporter to have done something to unlock the teleport ability, the portal being used and/or the destination portal.
6. Limit the times during which the teleport grid is available. As in "sorry, wrong time of the month, no teleports this week".
7. Limit the number of times any character can cast a teleport.
8. Limit the number of times any caracter can receive a teleport.
9. Require the recipient of a teleport to be a certain level or higher - perhaps the level needed to cast the teleport. No easy travel for low levels because they have a multi-box capability, a guild with high level teleporters or have been twinked and are rich enough to hire teleporters.
I see the benefits in most all of these, but I also question what happens down the road in year 2 or 3 when we all have seen most every corner of the world and you just don't want to have to walk across the continent AGAIN, because your too low to be able to be ported.
Will this push people to just choose the most centralized city as their "home" when creating new characters?
Will some of these ideas keep the casual player from taking up one of these classes, leading to an elite group of people with control, thereby negating many of the concerns for creating these ideas?
I need to go back and rewatch the video references as I was somewhat distracted at the time and think I must have missed more than I orignally thought.
Fulton said: ... Start simple, that you can't port or be ported until you have visited the desitination.IMO, I think you've nailed it with consumables.Use consumables to port. ...
What is the balance? I don't know.
vjek said:Fulton said: ... Start simple, that you can't port or be ported until you have visited the desitination.IMO, I think you've nailed it with consumables.Use consumables to port. ...
What is the balance? I don't know.
And I don't mean requiring a single consumable item as a spell component, I mean teleport scrolls, totems, charged items, relics, fetish, icon, rods, wands, crystals, widgets, whatever. An object from your inventory, that was created by another player, exclusively, that you can use at any time.
Then you can remove teleportation as a class-bound ability, and you change it into a crafting ability, that either many or all crafting spheres are required to produce.
You can either have it so all crafters can make some version of a consumable teleport, or make it so half make a required component while the other have make the final product.
So, the initial negative reaction of: Well, then anyone can teleport anywhere. Already true with the wizard/druid 2-boxing.
At the very least, consumable teleports don't encourage 2-boxing the way having ports only permitted to two classes does.
It also offers the following bonus: Wizards and Druids could have a wider array of different/new abilities that would make their role more desirable within the Quaternity. Or you could give them entirely different non-combat abilities that are not teleport related.
You could also, instead of or in addition to, permit consumable teleport objects/items for personal teleportation, but grant group-only teleports to Wizards and Druids exclusively. Doesn't discourage or stop the 2-box problem as much, but would be a small step in the right direction.
I don't see VR doing it, but it's an interesting theorycrafting exercise.
such as?
I definitely don't support all of the possible restrictions on teleports. I may not even support most of them. If teleport locations are inconveneint enough that it is nice to be able to teleport but not really unbalancing, or acting to shrink the world, we may not need anything else.
One *possible* reason for severe restrictions is to balance druid and wizard class non-combat abilities against other class abilities. If all classes have abilities that are even close to being equally desirable - nothing more is needed from this perspective. I am trying to look from a game design perspective. Personally I will benefit if these classes are overpowered since they are at or near the top of my list of classes to play.
The second possible reason for severe restrictions is to keep them from undercutting the largeness of the world excessively. I hope VR won't give them such broad powers as to call for severe restrictions on how often they can be used.
((They are saying if you are lvl 50, you need a lvl 50+ to teleport you?))
No I guess I should have explained in more detail. They are saying that you will gain the ability to teleport yourself sooner than you will gain the ability to teleport others. They have said nothing about restricting who you can teleport. Any discussion of that comes purely from people posting here.
Hopefully this and other abilities will be well though out in terms of game impact. Sorry if i came across a bit with a dwarven disposition :) , I am not a fan of nerfs on any class due to others aguing that they don't have x ability, bottom line is the game is not out, we dont know anything other than what we like to speculate.
Placing the word limit and require in association with an opinion come across as oppresive rather than acomodating, like laws regardless of the intent, once one is enacted you are taking someone's freedom.
Again, drawing deserved attention to the BRILLIANT idea of having wandering stones actually -wander- as giant, awesome golems. Which should be the real thrust of this thread, not something so terribly uninspiring as multiboxing. Ok, so a few people get deep kicks out of having the most efficient play/second in Terminus. No problem, have fun. Who the buck cares. Wandering stone golems, on the other hand, will add a huge amount of desperately needed sheer fantasy awesome to Pantheon, and so should be heartily supported so the devs may take notice!
Soo a budget wizard from what I read..no thanks.
I'm with Alexander on this one. The wandering stones that wander concept is really appealing to me if for no other reason than it just seems so cool (there are other reasons though).
I don't want other means of travel to be considered "a waste of time" relative to teleportation. If it's the only reasonable means of travel or if teleporation makes you feel like you can zip from any one part of the world to the any other nearly seamlessly, then it has gone too far in my opinion. That's subjective though. I just want to think to myself (even at end game) "I know X place is the best place to go for this task, but Y place is closer, so I'll go there instead".
disposalist said:Fulton said:I agree that travel should be meaningful, but after you've played 40-50 levels, it becomes a chore if there aren't some sort of ways to speed up the trip.
It's not like Druids and Wizards would be created with the ability to port at level1. It would take time before the ability to port will be accessible to even the casual players. Just from a monetary standpoint, the first few porters will make good cash porting those that can pay what will likely be premium prices, until there is plenty of service providers to drive down the cost to the point the casual players can afford it.
I think people are thinking too much of early game and forcing travel, versus the reality that this won't happen overnight.
In EQ porting was a goldmine.
If the classic EQ arbitrary assigning of group proting to Druids and Wizards is followed, I anticipate the Dial-A-Port guild being created on release day and within weeks having characters high enough level to do it. They will then quickly be the richest guild and, again if the EQ model is followed, anyone with the cash can have themselves or their level 1 alts and friends ported around and travel will be trivialised to a mundane Uber service.
Yay.
I can see gold sellers setting up dispatch characters taking calls and having a roster of Druid and Wizard 'drivers' who they 'employ'...
That's nonsense!