I can't remember what they called it and it's making it hard for me to find information on it. I know they mentioned a system that will likely be in place to give you some perma-benefit to re-rolling from max level back to level 1.
I am extremely excited for this mechanic and would be very greatfull if someone could point me in the right direction to some info on it.
Thanks in advance!
Progeny is what you're looking for. Here is an excerpt from the FAQ thread:
51) What details are available regarding the progeny feature?
Excerpt from "The Pantheon Difference" https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
Progeny System
"Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things)."
Quote from Aradune (08/23/2016) https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak
"I think the 'retirement' part is the hardest part of this system to wrap one’s head around and to accept. In fact, having to permanently retire a high level character in order to create alts with progeny bonuses may be asking too much. While we're not putting a lot of time into the progeny system right now (it's something that is planned several months down the road, after we actually have high level characters, have experienced high level combat, etc.), if there's anything that pokes a sizable hole in the system it's the retirement part, and what that truly means or might mean.
We have to first go back to the purpose for such a system -- one of its primary goals is to reward a player who has leveled up a character to max level by encouraging him to create alts and experience the game again, albeit from a different perspective, and ideally in such a way that feels different and new enough that it’s a lot of fun. It's about replayability. It's also about pride -- you could adventure with your augmented alts and people would recognize that you were someone who has already achieved great things in Pantheon. And I think these are great goals -- recognizing and rewarding long time players while also giving them reason to keep playing can't be a bad thing.
But then how does it actually work? Well first, we haven't said much, again because this system is not even close to being set in stone, and, as mentioned, one that doesn't have to be fully fleshed out in the near term. So I'm going to speculate and theory-craft a bit -- yes, that means I'm not announcing anything officially.
First, does such a system really require that the older character be permanently retired? I remember my earlier characters and how proud I was of them -- I didn't log them in very often because I was more interested in leveling up my newer characters -- but I did log them in occasionally to show them off and perhaps even participate in some adventure. If I couldn't do this because my character was inaccessible, how would that make me feel? Probably not so good.
But if the higher level player isn't retired, is it fair to allow that person to create alts with some added benefits? I honestly don’t see where it’s not – if you do, please speak up. So for the sake of this discussion, I'm willing to remove the retirement part and think about it for a while -- is there something I'm missing?
One of the other questions that comes up is will there be any restrictions as to who these augmented alts can be? If, for example, they are the offspring of a mighty human warrior and a beautiful ashen elf wizard, then it wouldn't make any sense if that alt could be any race or class, especially race. Does this restriction add to the system? Perhaps it does -- if you want all sorts of augmented alts that are a variety of races and classes, then perhaps you need to bring multiple characters up to this level necessary to use the Progeny system. Maybe that's good and encourages even more replayability.
And the last big question that keeps coming up is 'just what are these augmentations, these advantages?' And will they create an imbalance? Will these alts be crazy powerful and damage the balance and fun of the lower level game? Well, that's the easiest one to answer: no, of course we couldn't let that happen. I'm confident that whatever these advantages might be that they could be measurably beneficial, truly noticeable, yet not so powerful that balance is harmed or that nobody will want to group with regular characters.
Anyway, that's pretty much what I wanted to bring up in hopes that people keep talking about this proposed system and how it might work (or how it might not). The big question being, of course, is retirement really a necessary part of the system? It's certainly a big negative to many people and I have to ask, what is the positive? What does the system lose or what breaks or what doesn't make sense if the original character is still around and playable? Or, if a sacrifice must be made, perhaps it’s not about retiring a high level character but rather sacrificing powerful items in a ritual that results in their alts (offspring) having special advantages. This could be a great item sink, and while it would sting to lose some great items, you still get to play your old character if you want to.
It is interesting that this system is brought up as often as it is. I didn’t expect it to be. It’s an old MUD concept that I’ve wanted to bring to MMOs for some time as I’m always thinking about ways to encourage and reward long term play, about ways to keep people playing an MMO even years later. Really, that’s all the system is: a way to reward players who've put a lot of time into the game and who might want to experience the game again, as an alt, but would be even further incentivized to do so if that alt had some small but noticeable advantages. It's like a rite of passage and a recognition and a measure of respect shown to older players. Everything else is just detail, context, and flavor."
Quote from Kilsin (01/23/2017) https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3056/the-progeny-system-what-say-you
"We have explained parts of this already but this isn't a forced system, you can ignore it and play the game without worrying. We have said the rewards/bonuses for using the Progeny system will not be game breaking, meaning - you will not suffer in a group against someone who has used the Progeny system if you haven't, people are just wildly throwing assumptions and opinions around without actually knowing how the system works, but to explain why we think it will be good for Pantheon very briefly and for context (and this isn't information for people to cherry pick and continue arguing over, it is some very general reasons behind why a system like this can be very good for our game)
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system.
We have stated that we will scrap it if it doesn't work well, but for it to have a chance, we need to get more work done on it and then let people actually test it out first hand, because so far the discussion is based on assumptions and opinions on something with such little information at hand and that is just absurd.
We really need to relax and give a few topics like this a chance before casting such negative assumptions over them or trying to troubleshoot problems that don't yet exist. Let us get the Progeny system to a working state so we can implement everything we have in mind for it and then when it is time to test it (along with all of the other systems, mechanics and features that work in sync with the Progeny system) you folks can then give us your feedback, we will be open to discussing it more at that time, but for now, people assuming and basing opinions on such little information on this topic is pointless."
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3466/an-alternative-to-progeny
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2580/remort-ability
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6732/progeny-titles
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3056/the-progeny-system-what-say-you
Wow! I really did not expect this much info-- thanks so much I really appreciate it.
Personally I do hope they require you to retire your character. Why do all choices have to be positive? This game from what I've seen is all about risk vs reward and preparation. I think for a perma-buff of any kind having to a retire a character is a small price to pay-- you could even roll the same class again and this would be a great and fun thing to do inbetween waiting for new content.
I too hope they retire. There's a lot on here that just want the continual level creep to 60, 80, 100 etc....
I personally feel the horizontal progression of a Progeny that would add more races/starting zones with each expansion and let players mix up those races class'so and factions is pure Genius.
IF they did something like that, yes some wanting the same old level creep like every other game out there would jump ship, but I belive it would be much more inviting for new generations of players coming in.
Awesome job 1AD7 with the info. I'm loving the potential and concept of the Progeny system. New class/race options, interesting perma-buffs, etc, etc. All great for those of us that enjoy the journey and don't want to sit in an eternal end-game.
There are lots of alternatives. I like the idea of the character retiring, but being able to run your family house/business (keep using as a crafting and trading NPC?). But if the game gets an expansion and extends max level, the character could come out of retirement (the progeny would have to then 'retire' to look after the home/shop) until the chracter reaches max level and chooses to retire again.
Nubi said:Wow! I really did not expect this much info-- thanks so much I really appreciate it.
You can always count on 1AD7 to lend a helping hand... a real asset to the community!
Also, @Disposalist, really like your idea on being able to switch between progeny and main, but only having one or the other active at any given time. My question would be is there a limit on the number of progeny a player could have related to one character? Would it be possible to be playing the great, great, great, great grandchild etc... of the original progenator?
I think this thread from earlier in the year covered most of the things I would say again.
I don't think anything has changed, since then, with respect to public reveals of this mechanic.
For me and mine, it ultimately comes down to how much of an advantage the player gets versus simply leveling up an(other) alt + box, using the same time investment.
I’d love a system where both reincarnation and offspring was an option with each bearing different benefits. Reincarnation for example would allow for changing races, while offspring might be more strict on race but give other benefits not given to reincarnates.
I'm not a fan of retiring my character permanently, but I’d consider the reincarnation of my characters “soul” as a new life. That said, This could be dangerous territory if negatives are not also required to balance out this transaction.
Progeny is a system with great potential. It could be one of the major, really major, things that differentiates the game and makes it special. Based on things other games have had, of course, but fleshed out and thought through in ways that makes it work far better in Pantheon than it has in other games that didn't implement their systems as well or integrate their systems into the warp and woof of the game. It is a very exciting idea.
It can also be done poorly and ...what is the technical term the kids overuse these days .....suck.
VR has mentioned that too little is known about how the system will be implemented for us to focus on details - that it will be more productive for us to give ideas about generalities at this time. What we want or what we do not want, rather than saying we like or do not like Progeny. How *can* we like or dislike it yet - we can mrely have general hopes and fears.
Nor is it certain that Progeny will be in Pantheon. VR has correctly stated that if they cannot find a way to make it work well they will not put it in merely because they had said it was one of their options.
vjek said:I think this thread from earlier in the year covered most of the things I would say again.
I don't think anything has changed, since then, with respect to public reveals of this mechanic.
For me and mine, it ultimately comes down to how much of an advantage the player gets versus simply leveling up an(other) alt + box, using the same time investment.
I am in full agreement with the sentiment you expressed in that thread, particularly:
"My understanding is, they want Progeny to be entirely optional. Optional in theory and required in practice, eventually, smells a lot like bait and switch to some paying customers. Not ideal.
So, to your point, I think both could be great ideas. :) I would love to be able to invest more time beyond max level to gain further power. All aboard that train, for this customer."
FFXI had a progeny-like feature, another take on remort if you will, and it was essentially viewed as a "requirement" by players. You had to participate at least once ... but guess what happened as a result? All those benefits that Kilsin mentioned (that I linked in my earlier response) -- they were achieved in remarkable fashion. I would turn this back to VR and ask them how committed they are to achieving those results. Are they optional for the kind of game/world you plan on building? Or should they be a requirement? The latter is a far better answer when all things are considered. Progeny has the potential to alleviate some of the most blatant issues that these kinds of games have ... this shouldn't be tackled with a toe-in-the-water approach. Let me quote one particular phrase:
"but to explain why we think it will be good for Pantheon very briefly and for context (and this isn't information for people to cherry pick and continue arguing over, it is some very general reasons behind why a system like this can be very good for our game)
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system."
Some general reasons why it could be very good for the game, you say? Well ... all of those reasons look pretty good to me! As someone who has experience with a game that had a feature similar to what progeny has been dubbed to be (a take on remort) -- where those reasons were not just theory, but actual game-defining things that made the game/world significantly better than all others ... well, this is why progeny is the differentiator I have been most excited about for the past 3 years. I don't want those goals/reasons to be optional. I want them to be a requirement of game design. If VR sticks with the philosophy that it's a totally optional thing or one that requires players to permanently delete their character in order to participate ... this feature will only see a fraction of its true potential.
There are vastly better ways to keep non-max-level zones populated, but I understand the optimism.
Similarly, there are better mechanics for horizontal progression, but that's all been covered before on these forums in the past 5+ years.
Either way, it's not a make or break it for me and mine. If they insist on making us level up again, and we gain another equipment slot or ~4.5% in power per level up? Then re-leveling will become the most efficient thing we do. With 2-boxing the entire time, as terrible (imo) as that is.
vjek said:There are vastly better ways to keep non-max-level zones populated, but I understand the optimism.
Similarly, there are better mechanics for horizontal progression, but that's all been covered before on these forums in the past 5+ years.
Either way, it's not a make or break it for me and mine. If they insist on making us level up again, and we gain another equipment slot or ~4.5% in power per level up? Then re-leveling will become the most efficient thing we do. With 2-boxing the entire time, as terrible (imo) as that is.
But it won't be the only thing they do for zone population or horizontal progression. And I doubt that it will be a significant enough power boost that means using Progeny is de facto (and I'm sure they've said as much).
*Shrug* we just don't know, I guess, but, yeah, may as well be optimistic.
vjek said:There are vastly better ways to keep non-max-level zones populated, but I understand the optimism.
Similarly, there are better mechanics for horizontal progression, but that's all been covered before on these forums in the past 5+ years.
Either way, it's not a make or break it for me and mine. If they insist on making us level up again, and we gain another equipment slot or ~4.5% in power per level up? Then re-leveling will become the most efficient thing we do. With 2-boxing the entire time, as terrible (imo) as that is.
It's not entirely the same as horizontal progression. A system like this allows you to experience the vertical progression again. They could also make things rare enough and difficult enough at the top end that leveling up again wouldn't be more effecient but a close or lesser alternative to grinding for endless rarity.
I wonder if progeny progression passes over in generations. I mean..lets say a 1% bonus on stat for the first progeny and another 1% bonus on stats for the next progeny (that is just an example).
Qulash said:I wonder if progeny progression passes over in generations. I mean..lets say a 1% bonus on stat for the first progeny and another 1% bonus on stats for the next progeny (that is just an example).
I cant see it being that extreme, maybe 1/100th of a percent each generation.
Getting a character to maximum level is not going to be trivial. At least we sure hope it won't be. A 1% boost (whether to all attributes or the key one for the new class) does not strike me as at all excessive. Obviously with a cap.
But we don't know just how attributes will work. Let us go back in memory to the early D&D or AD&D rulesets. Going from 14 to 15 added a nice bonus to an attribute. Going from 14 to 14.14 added ....nothing whatsoever. Do it eight times and you see some benefit. Not enough to spend years getting 8 characters to maximum level.
Best to stick to generalities. Progeny needs to add some value. It may be combat ability, it may be crafting or harvesting ability, it may be unique cosmetic/pet/mount options it may be ..... If it adds nothing it is worth nothing - we will almost all ignore it.
But best that it not add so much that it becomes semi-mandatory. Few of us want to see "Endgame group looking for wizard that has progenized 6 times."
I hope it won't be as simple as just 1% boost to all attributes and will be connected to the class of predecessors and I do hope it'll be additive - so having warrior father leaves you with +x to CON and +x to AC, roguish grandpa gives +xDEX and +xcrit chance and ranger great grondmother +xDEX and +xattack speed. Not to mention special active abilities: so wizard would gain ability to summon elemental from summoner father, ability to wear heavier (leather) armours thanks to warrior grandpa and so on.
Having it just positives is a bad idea, even the smallest of gains will lead to
dorotea said:"Endgame group looking for wizard that has progenized 6 times."
It needs to be balanced with both positives and negatives, but in a natural way.
So for example; (This example is purely speculative)
Say I'm a human rogue but my father was a dwarf bard, I may gain a slight bonus to cold resistance due to the heritage, but with music inclination in the bloodline, I may also find I have a equal percentage to become distracted and loose focus when hearing a bard play causing me to make failed checks on trap detection or lock picking ect..
If there are any bonuses passed on to the next generation that when you compare a naked 1st generation character to a naked Xth generation character the Xth generation character is 'better', then that will become a require process for all characters eventually. In addition, all future content will need to be designed assuming that every character will have progressed through some number of generations otherwise the content will be, if not triviliazed, will be easier than intended.
Perhaps you'd only have major perks from 2 previous characters? And ealier ancestors would give you like +1 to certain attribute each?
Maybe progeny need not necessarily have combat enhancements. Offspring of adventurers could be more familiar with places, enemies, factions, environments - maybe much of the faction progress, location info (awareness successes) could be inherited. Maybe a few key pieces of acclimation gear could be inherited. Perhaps progeny could just play without needing to learn everything their ancestors did - maybe the system could just allow a character to level up faster, progress faster by already having key discoveries made. Then endgame "must be progeny" group invites would have no basis.
I would hope a progeny system would allow us to change races, though, as that is one of the more important incentives to start a new character. A sort of transference of the spirit could make sense of that, or even a sort of adoption concept.
Doesn't matter with progeny and new players. If new players see enhancements to a characters performance...then it is by all means linear progression. If your character at 50 after progeny is more powerful and does more dmg than your character before progeny at 50 then it will be considered linear progression. Same thing happened with AA'S... Down the road many guilds and even groups wanted a 300 aa minimum requirement. Just because your level doesn't go up doesn't mean that it still isn't vertical progression.