Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

How can Pantheon reward players for doing things the "hard

    • 1785 posts
    September 29, 2019 9:49 PM PDT

    Somehow the thread title got messed up.  It's supposed to be the "hard way".  Why it cut off the last word I have no idea. :(

    A couple of days ago I was watching a debate about WoW classic in one of the discord servers that I'm a part of.  On the one side, people were saying that WoW classic was better than retail because there were more places where you needed other players; you had to pay more attention to your equipment, and sometimes you had to really work to get upgrades; and, because there was more risk involved in combat.  On the other side of the debate, people were saying that it really wasn't any better, because people were still creating mass AoE groups, running past things on mounts, and crowding into the places that gave the most experience.

     

    That led me to ask:  Is the problem the game, or the players?

    Regardless of how long we've been playing MMORPGs, we live in a player culture that prioritizes efficient progression above everything else.  Even back in the early days of EverQuest, I can think of plenty of examples where people would flock to the dungeons with the "best" experience, or camp in the zones with the easiest pulls.  In the vast majority of games I've played, players intentionally avoid risk and challenge while they're progressing - then they hit the level cap and suddenly decide they need to play a harder game.  We gamers are naturally risk-averse, and we always, always try to find the fastest path to our goals.  Maybe that's because we feel like the destination is the only thing that really matters.  Or maybe we just don't want to fall behind anyone else.  But either way, this tendency leads us to do things that are artificial; that are outside the spirit of the games we're playing.  Sure, you can argue that it's ok to pull every mob in a zone and AoE them all down, gaining a level and a half while laughing maniacally, because the game lets you do it - but really, is that the type of experience we all want to have?  One where we just mow down things as fast as possible to level as efficiently as possible and get our phat lewts along the way?

    I'm sure that most of you are reading this thinking "it's not that bad, and WE don't do that kind of thing, because we care about challenge and the journey and etc." - but really, let's be honest with ourselves here.  We have all done this kind of thing at some point.  Maybe we were tired of the grind and the tedium, or we really wanted to see that next piece of content, or our friends were ahead of us and we wanted to catch up, or whatever.

    At least from my perspective, history has shown that while we players can talk a really good game, when push comes to shove, we'll always take the easier, more efficient path - simply because it's more rewarding to do so.  If we want to change that, we have to change the paradigm somehow.

    Thus, my question.  How can Pantheon reward players for choosing to do things the hard way?  For taking the path less traveled?  For purposefully slowing down, not because they're forced to, but because they want to?  How can Pantheon make the kind of gameplay experience we all like to say that we want compelling enough that we don't devolve back into our old habits?  Or can it?


    This post was edited by Nephele at September 29, 2019 9:51 PM PDT
    • 75 posts
    September 29, 2019 10:45 PM PDT

    So a couple things I'll voice my opinion on since you covered a lot if I miss something I apologize lol.

    Big thing to remember when it comes to WoW classic or EQ classic is for a lot it is more of a nastolgia thing. You go back and think of all the great times you had when you first played the game right? "Oh man I remember doing this dungeon with these classes and we just tore it up" or "it was so hard and we barely completed it". Reason being is at the time everything you did in that game was new. Every experience you had was your first experience for that game. Weather it was remembering how tough the orcs were in a camp or remembering the time someone pulled Emperor Crush, to youre first experience with Naggy or VoX, Inny, Cazic Thule. Even remembering how tough Hogger was in Elwynne Forest and trying to single pull him without getting a bunch of other mobs on you. It was all a new experience every step every quest every new zone. I think that's one of the reasons people love reliving those times when given the option.

    Now as far as difficulty goes of course WoW classic was tough, everyone was grinding the same place for the same quest to get that piece of gear that made you better. There wasn't a way of twinking a character as the world was new. The rush to get to 60 to grind the high end dungeons. Everything was a challenge because you didnt have someone to hold your hand in the beginning, it was all an even playing field. True for EQ as well. Now as you level and got new abilities or started to get Talent points, people would find that they either liked the class or they didn't or realized how broken a class was in the beginning. WoW with Wars and rogues was ridiculous. 2 shotting people in pvp with ambush was crazy broken, or stun locking. Mages being able to AoE farm mobs especially when going down the frost talent tree, made them ideal for dungeon spams. (People running Zul Farrak with 1 healer and 4 mages at the graves for 60k exp an hour). Same with Everquest. Monks were nuts in the beginning same with Shadow Knights. I'm sure there were some other classes I'm forgetting as well.

    My point is in classic most people remember it with Rose colored glasses due to then it was new and the competition was even. As expansions go on a couple things happen. Tweaks to classes and mobs to help balance (which sometimes works) and the need to make the game more player friendly. EQ 99 was tough, that was the game and you either learned to play well and adapt or you just had a tough time (or reroll a different class). Same with WoW, classic was unforgiving in many ways. Mobs were overtuned in many instances. Quests would go from being in a level 21 zone to all of a sudden getting quests that you realistically needed to be 28 for. And the best/worst part about this, you had to figure it out. If you weren't high enough you ran to another zone and grabbed quests there. If someone in EQ wasn't geared enough you replaced them. It was a very hardcore mindset, as hardcore doesnt necessarily mean you need to play 16hrs a day. These games were unforgiving thus when you were rewarded with something it felt like a real achievement. It wasn't just another hand out, which brings me to my next point.

    Expansions. Expansions feel easier and easier each release because well...they are. Most people have an idea of how the game is played, what classes do what, the abilities they'll utilize. Not to mention guides upon guides made on forums of best specs to play, where to grind, mobs dropping X gear. Dungeons, what to avoid. What each raid boss does, biggest one addons. DBM for WoW GINA for EQ. You want to talk about hand outs these addons will tell you what the boss is casting, when they're casting it and who they are casting it on (WoW DBM) GINA was trigger warning for bosses so you knew when to get out of LoS ot taunt swap etc.

    I think for the most part EQ kept the game pretty difficult (I only played to TSS so not sure past that) from my experience. The bar was set and thats where you met it up to PoP. After PoP I did feel a bit of a curve coming into the further expansion with 2.0's and progression gear. Now WoW I think definetly became easier over time. Classic to Lich King I remember being super tough. Cataclysm and beyond they watered down the content quite a bit especially with LFRS. Yes it's a smart business plan to bring interest to all players "hardcore" and "casual" but then you do bring on the chance of boredom with the ease of completion of content. Normal raids are a joke, Heroic raids are getting easier each expansion while I think End Mythic bosses are still tough most raiding guilds can at least get 4-5 bosses down in mythic before a new raid is dropped. So whats there to do after that? Rep grind? PvP? Achievements? Reroll a new toon? Pick your poison there isn't a wrong answer.

    In conclusion, if Visionary Realms is going to stick with what they said saying this game will be for a niche group and isn't meant for everyone. That this game will be tough and focus around grouping not soloing (another point to bring up another time in other games) then they will need to consider numerous things. Does it make sense? I mean this from a business stand point, will you gain subs if the game is out right difficult to a new player who may be used to WoW retail or current EQ or any other MMO out at the moment. Or will it push them away. It's a double edged sword, if you cater too much to the casual your core group will lose interest and most likely complain on forums or quit playing. If you cater to the hardcore you risk not getting more subs to continue to create great content.

    My personal opinion? Keep it tough. A great reward is always worth the risk. If I'm with 4-5 other players in a dungeon and we're grinding taking down nameds and it drops something valuable and I win? That is a fantastic feeling. Even if I don't win how many times have you been in a group asking if you can camp a couple more times in hopes of getting that same drop? It entices a good group to stick together and conquer. Ways of keeping the game tough, keep the bad addons out of the game. Trigger warnings, DBM call outs anything that gives you an advantage to a mob should be left out or if created taken down. You want your UI to be customizable go for it. Everything else keep it out. I can't remember if they said if they would have maps in game or not but if so keep it minimized. Don't allow features on it that give you an advantage to finding new spots fast. Lastly expansions. A great MMO is bound to keep the lore going so long as the fanbase is growing or at least sticking around. Don't over do it with new gear. Upgrades are fine, but me replacing my Mythic gear for a green in a new expansion 3 levels in is frustrating. It's time wasted. Upgrade should feel good enough where you're glad you grinded it for it but not powerful enough to make you OP.

    Without writing a story here I'll leave it this for a summmary of what you were asking but by all means if the thread keeps going I'll add to it as others throw in their vision and opinions of what they see in Pantheon.

    Cheers,

    Tomkins

    • 627 posts
    September 29, 2019 10:50 PM PDT
    Path of least resistance will be what many players tend to go for. If you can get 50% more our of your play time, why not do it?
    • 500 posts
    September 30, 2019 4:36 AM PDT

    OGTomkins said:

    So a couple things I'll voice my opinion on since you covered a lot if I miss something I apologize lol.

    Big thing to remember when it comes to WoW classic or EQ classic is for a lot it is more of a nastolgia thing. You go back and think of all the great times you had when you first played the game right? "Oh man I remember doing this dungeon with these classes and we just tore it up" or "it was so hard and we barely completed it". Reason being is at the time everything you did in that game was new. Every experience you had was your first experience for that game. Weather it was remembering how tough the orcs were in a camp or remembering the time someone pulled Emperor Crush, to youre first experience with Naggy or VoX, Inny, Cazic Thule. Even remembering how tough Hogger was in Elwynne Forest and trying to single pull him without getting a bunch of other mobs on you. It was all a new experience every step every quest every new zone. I think that's one of the reasons people love reliving those times when given the option.

    Now as far as difficulty goes of course WoW classic was tough, everyone was grinding the same place for the same quest to get that piece of gear that made you better. There wasn't a way of twinking a character as the world was new. The rush to get to 60 to grind the high end dungeons. Everything was a challenge because you didnt have someone to hold your hand in the beginning, it was all an even playing field. True for EQ as well. Now as you level and got new abilities or started to get Talent points, people would find that they either liked the class or they didn't or realized how broken a class was in the beginning. WoW with Wars and rogues was ridiculous. 2 shotting people in pvp with ambush was crazy broken, or stun locking. Mages being able to AoE farm mobs especially when going down the frost talent tree, made them ideal for dungeon spams. (People running Zul Farrak with 1 healer and 4 mages at the graves for 60k exp an hour). Same with Everquest. Monks were nuts in the beginning same with Shadow Knights. I'm sure there were some other classes I'm forgetting as well.

    My point is in classic most people remember it with Rose colored glasses due to then it was new and the competition was even. As expansions go on a couple things happen. Tweaks to classes and mobs to help balance (which sometimes works) and the need to make the game more player friendly. EQ 99 was tough, that was the game and you either learned to play well and adapt or you just had a tough time (or reroll a different class). Same with WoW, classic was unforgiving in many ways. Mobs were overtuned in many instances. Quests would go from being in a level 21 zone to all of a sudden getting quests that you realistically needed to be 28 for. And the best/worst part about this, you had to figure it out. If you weren't high enough you ran to another zone and grabbed quests there. If someone in EQ wasn't geared enough you replaced them. It was a very hardcore mindset, as hardcore doesnt necessarily mean you need to play 16hrs a day. These games were unforgiving thus when you were rewarded with something it felt like a real achievement. It wasn't just another hand out, which brings me to my next point.

    Expansions. Expansions feel easier and easier each release because well...they are. Most people have an idea of how the game is played, what classes do what, the abilities they'll utilize. Not to mention guides upon guides made on forums of best specs to play, where to grind, mobs dropping X gear. Dungeons, what to avoid. What each raid boss does, biggest one addons. DBM for WoW GINA for EQ. You want to talk about hand outs these addons will tell you what the boss is casting, when they're casting it and who they are casting it on (WoW DBM) GINA was trigger warning for bosses so you knew when to get out of LoS ot taunt swap etc.

    I think for the most part EQ kept the game pretty difficult (I only played to TSS so not sure past that) from my experience. The bar was set and thats where you met it up to PoP. After PoP I did feel a bit of a curve coming into the further expansion with 2.0's and progression gear. Now WoW I think definetly became easier over time. Classic to Lich King I remember being super tough. Cataclysm and beyond they watered down the content quite a bit especially with LFRS. Yes it's a smart business plan to bring interest to all players "hardcore" and "casual" but then you do bring on the chance of boredom with the ease of completion of content. Normal raids are a joke, Heroic raids are getting easier each expansion while I think End Mythic bosses are still tough most raiding guilds can at least get 4-5 bosses down in mythic before a new raid is dropped. So whats there to do after that? Rep grind? PvP? Achievements? Reroll a new toon? Pick your poison there isn't a wrong answer.

    In conclusion, if Visionary Realms is going to stick with what they said saying this game will be for a niche group and isn't meant for everyone. That this game will be tough and focus around grouping not soloing (another point to bring up another time in other games) then they will need to consider numerous things. Does it make sense? I mean this from a business stand point, will you gain subs if the game is out right difficult to a new player who may be used to WoW retail or current EQ or any other MMO out at the moment. Or will it push them away. It's a double edged sword, if you cater too much to the casual your core group will lose interest and most likely complain on forums or quit playing. If you cater to the hardcore you risk not getting more subs to continue to create great content.

    My personal opinion? Keep it tough. A great reward is always worth the risk. If I'm with 4-5 other players in a dungeon and we're grinding taking down nameds and it drops something valuable and I win? That is a fantastic feeling. Even if I don't win how many times have you been in a group asking if you can camp a couple more times in hopes of getting that same drop? It entices a good group to stick together and conquer. Ways of keeping the game tough, keep the bad addons out of the game. Trigger warnings, DBM call outs anything that gives you an advantage to a mob should be left out or if created taken down. You want your UI to be customizable go for it. Everything else keep it out. I can't remember if they said if they would have maps in game or not but if so keep it minimized. Don't allow features on it that give you an advantage to finding new spots fast. Lastly expansions. A great MMO is bound to keep the lore going so long as the fanbase is growing or at least sticking around. Don't over do it with new gear. Upgrades are fine, but me replacing my Mythic gear for a green in a new expansion 3 levels in is frustrating. It's time wasted. Upgrade should feel good enough where you're glad you grinded it for it but not powerful enough to make you OP.

    Without writing a story here I'll leave it this for a summmary of what you were asking but by all means if the thread keeps going I'll add to it as others throw in their vision and opinions of what they see in Pantheon.

    Cheers,

    Tomkins

    ^Well said, agree completely. Keep the game tough, and devoid of any addons that make a mockery of risk vs reward.

    • 70 posts
    September 30, 2019 4:38 AM PDT

    I agree with a lot what you said Tomkins. I always enjoyed the games more where xp goes slow, each monster is a challenge, each dungeon crawl is an adventure and death is feared. Surviving a dungeon crawls as a team was a victory, even without a reward, it felt good because of the teamwork that was required to even get into the dungeon. 

    I also think your remark about expansions that make the hard earned gear to be redundant is something visionary realms has to be beware of.  They do not want to see old Dungeon crawls to become useless with the new expansions.

    But both remarks of me above divert away from the question Nephile placed.

    People tend to do things the easiest way to get a reward. That is what it means to be human. But there are dumb or stubbern people doing stuff their own way. I am not sure if you should reward the dumb people at all. And the stubborn people are just to stubbern to change their mind.

    I am one of the people who would turn off getting xp, if that option is aviable, so I can explore the world more at that level. The last part is my reward. I see myself as stubborn. Others might find it dumb.

    But I think you want to see rewards for people leveling on a dungeon A that gives 10 xp per kill versus dungeon B that gives 100 xp per kill. You could give dungeon crawlers A a special Title that you only get when getting XP there or let that dungeon drop more interesing loot. Then you have to compare the xp reward with something else. It would make people switch for a slower challenge.

     

     

    • 521 posts
    September 30, 2019 5:13 AM PDT

    There should be no reward for taking the harder path, because the act of doing something for the challenge is in itself its own reward.

    • 624 posts
    September 30, 2019 6:00 AM PDT

    Playas gonna play

    As you stated, you can’t change basic human behavior. The only way VR can entice folk to take a path less travelled is to offer significant reward (loot / experience / prestige) at the destination. And still many (most?) will follow the easiest route, we are lazy creatures.

    Those of us that enjoy self imposed challenge will motivate by surrounding ourselves with like minded crazy gamers, regardless of VR’s goodies. Excelsior!


    This post was edited by Kumu at September 30, 2019 6:04 AM PDT
    • 1021 posts
    September 30, 2019 6:07 AM PDT

    Nephele said:Thus, my question.  How can Pantheon reward players for choosing to do things the hard way?  For taking the path less traveled?  For purposefully slowing down, not because they're forced to, but because they want to?  How can Pantheon make the kind of gameplay experience we all like to say that we want compelling enough that we don't devolve back into our old habits?  Or can it?

     

    Rewards.  Titles.  Rares.  Something that will matter in 2 years.  Not today.  Regardless of whats done, a large % of the people that play at release will be playing to race to the end.  But years down the line those still playing will wow'd most by the things that you could only get once and that are truely rare and things that you had to take you time to earn at the beginning of the game.

    • 3852 posts
    September 30, 2019 7:56 AM PDT

    Good post - good comments.

    My own take on this is that we take the easier way - most of us and most of the time - because we think of games like EQ as ....games. And we are conditioned to think of games as something where the idea is to *win*. Our cultural background tells us that someone that has a lot of fun playing a game and winds up losing it is ... a loser. Therefore we do not tend to have fun losing.

    Some of us , some of the time, step back and impose a challenge on ourselves. We think of it as a game-within-a-game and therefore "losing" the outer game doesn't bother us because we may be winning the *inner* game.

    Thus - setting a personal goal of getting to level-cap without ever dying even if it takes three times as long and gets us there with crappy gear because we skipped the high value high reward areas. By external standards we lose but by our personal standards it is a big win if we make it. Or setting a personal goal of getting to level-cap within a certain number of days or time /played even if it means hundreds of deaths and crappy gear because we prize fast xp without good rewards over great gear but slow xp.

     

    That is my take on why we do things the easy way, mostly. But on to a related topic - what *is* the hard way? We cannot incent people to do it without a fairly clear understanding of what it is.

    Is the hard way doing the most difficult bosses in the game - bosses that are hard to get to and hard to kill? Many would say "yes". 

    Is the hard way being a completionist - doing all or almost all the content without skipping much because of hurry to get to level-cap? Some would say yes. Maybe not as many.

    Is the hard way maximizing versatility and playing all aspects of the game in detail? Being one of the best adventurers and being one of the best harvesters and being one of the best crafters? Some would say yes to this as well.

    Is the hard way maximizing versatility? Saying any fool can get one character to level-cap with good gear but only the best can get one of each role or one of each class or one of each race up there even if it takes years. Some will say yes here too.

    So if two years into Pantheon when the level-cap is 50 (number picked for illustrative purposes only) you have a level 50 with all the best gear and all the skills and I have 10 level 30s covering many classes and all the roles and every crafting profession in the game - which of us has taken the hard road - you or me? Isn't the real answer that the road is different for each of us and each of us needs to decide what we want to get from the game - and get it?


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 30, 2019 7:58 AM PDT
    • 1456 posts
    September 30, 2019 7:59 AM PDT

    I like the topic. And I have to agree humans by nature, like water will take the path of least resistance.

    With that said, there behavior in the game, where do they grind (dungeon with the highest experience, or easiest pulls), how do they grind AOE or chain pulling) can't be altered only by moving where or how they find those things. They like water just find a different path to the same end.

    Seems to me the only way to get the results the OP  was speaking if would be change the destination. If "End Game" really was, I don't think most people would be in near the rush to get there.

    • 2419 posts
    September 30, 2019 8:14 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

     How can Pantheon reward players for choosing to do things the hard way?  For taking the path less traveled?  For purposefully slowing down, not because they're forced to, but because they want to?  How can Pantheon make the kind of gameplay experience we all like to say that we want compelling enough that we don't devolve back into our old habits?  Or can it?

    Rewards for doing things 'the hard way' (the definition of which is not universally accepted as one person's 'hard way' is another's 'normal'), should be better than rewards earned via other paths.  If my group goes and fights mobs above our level, our XP per kill should be far higher than that of a group killing mobs below their level.  The loot rewards for doing so come earlier for my group than others, further encouraging my group and I to continue this approach.

    But by earning more XP per kill, and assuming that the TTK is longer but not excessively longer, my group would naturally level faster.  If my group can kill 1 mob worth 500xp per person in the same time it takes you to kill 3 mobs at 100xp per person, and we all play the same amount of time, I will level quite a bit faster.

    There will always be some percentage of the population that will level slower than others, not necessarily due to limited playtime but moreso due to their desire to engage in things which do not conver into XP.  So what you do is make that content available and those people that wish to avail themselves of it will do so.  But you cannot force anyone to slow down.

    Speaking of 'slowing down', time is relative.  My view of what is slow is not the same of another person.  So to say 'purposefully slowing down' will never satisfy everyone.  Some will see it as too slow, others just fine, others not slow enough. 

    The TL;DR of this is simple:  Build an interesting, engaging and complex world and let the players choose how and at what pace they wish to enjoy it.

    • 75 posts
    September 30, 2019 8:20 AM PDT

    Now that I've woken up some I can add to this a bit.

    I'd agree that yes while we enjoy a challenge we do tend to take the easiest path at some point. I know I've done it, weather it was skipping collection quests or purposely running to a specific zone (even if it was out of the way) to grind mobs due to fast respawns or easier to kill for the same or greater XP then another zone. I think a lot of people in EQ would do starting zones then it was like Crushbone > Unrest > Guk/Lguk > Hole/Sol B? Something along those lines. WoW wasn't much better after the first time through either. Alliance you learned that Humans had the best spot to quickly level from Goldshire to Elwynn Forest to Westfall, from there you could dungeon grind in Dead mines for a few levels before hitting Red Ridge and Duskwood. The path goes on and on. But there's a pattern to both of these games that you can see.

    Both EQ and WoW imo, had linear leveling (i.e. above statement). It wasn't necessarily the lazy way of doing things but sought out the most effecient. Why make another toon and do it the "hard" way grinding in zones that didn't offer great camps or xp, when I can get my levels twice as fast by doing the zones that are popular for a reason. EQ did this in the same fashion for expansions I think up and until Luclin was released and Paludal Caverns became a crazy grind spot same with Griegs End. While true EQ never had a place you forced to go into having 8 billion zones to choose from a lot ended up being dead zones as either over time they were too far out of the way and not worth doing or word of mouth became a pattern of where to level for the fastest xp. WoW on the other hand almost forced your hand to where you would level first to avoid risk vs reward (with the exception of dungeons). Burning Crusade you had to follow the quest chains as NPCS would only talk to you at a certain level or comepleting a chain of quests. Forcing you to follow 1-2 paths. Lich King wasn't any better. It was basically 1 path until max level, by your third toon you knew exactly where to go what to grind what required a group and what you could solo, it became repetitive.

    Good news though, from what I'v read and grasped at VRs dream for their game is I don't think linear leveling will be a thing. While there may be quests (very little) you are expected to find a group and set forth your adventure. Zones will be massive enough where maybe on one end its meant for level 10's but as you delve deeper you realize you'll need to be 40 before exploring that place. The perception ability I think is going to be huge. It's an option to get players to go off the beaten path and possibly find newer places to group at for a great reward. Dungeons will hold (dont quote me) 60 people to be able to grind in, ontop of that named mobs won't be dedicated to one camp. Maybe "Grymmlocke, Destroyer of Groups" spawn rate is higher deeper in the dungeon but can still spawn early on in the dungeon, meaning everyone gets a chance at loot. Thats an awesome way to put named in a dungeon.

    The main thing I think if done right that VR will stand out from any other MMO when it comes to tough vs easy is their acclimation system. This gives them the ability to keep any zone at anytime to be challenging regardless of what you do. There won't be a go to this zone because it's easier than this one mentality, it will purely be on was aesthetically pleasing to your eye. So lets break that down.

    WoW - Linear questing. These zones will get you the greatest rewards and fastest levels

    EQ - Linear leveling. Follow these zone paths to reach max level.

    Pantheon - Which path will you follow because it should be challenging no matter what choice you have. 

    Frigid? Dealing with ice type mobs or cold type mobs, having to keep a fire near you perhaps. Maybe sliding off a cliff or mobs slow your melee attacks when they hit you.

    Scorching? Fire! Lava! You burn baby, I think lava golems and fire elementals here. Constant fireballs being hurtled at you, fire debuffs for x damage over x time.

    Toxic? Sludge, slimes and poisons. Lots of Dot's being put on your tank or even healers. Maybe these poisons slow your movement speed or reduce the healing you recieve. Toxic gases prevent you from doing certain things. 

    Anaerobic? Now this I'm thinking more water levels or that of being underwater. Challenging in itself if you are going up against merfolk, sharks, water elementals etc. Maybe you swim slow thus tank dieing means the rest of the group isn't out swimming that mob to safety.

    Pressure? This is a tough one because this could mean extremely high up or extremely down below. I think my earth type focus here personally but we'll see. Going with that mobs are tankier, take less damage, maybe root you in place or snare.

    Windshear? Huge winds, gusts of sharp winds cutting into you. Harpies, Air elementals etc. I think tons of knock backs.

    My point is VR is giving us 6 paths at the least to choose from all of which sound challenging. So to me Linear won't be an option, unless you decide the entire time you are going to spend time in 1 type of climate until max level. In which case maybe hard to get a group thus not making what you are doing effecient. What you choose and where you choose to go will *always* be an experience and a challenge. Thus giving that reward feeling of completing something in your day.

    Of course you could always join the group thats killing boars for 2xp a piece...of course you'd have to kill 65,345,285 boars to get up 30 levels. An option for everyone!

    • 370 posts
    September 30, 2019 8:23 AM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    There should be no reward for taking the harder path, because the act of doing something for the challenge is in itself its own reward.

     

    I disagree, the reward for more difficult content should be more rewarding. Such as raid gear should be on a whole different playing field as opposed to group gear.


    This post was edited by arazons at September 30, 2019 8:23 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    September 30, 2019 8:42 AM PDT

    ((Such as raid gear should be on a whole different playing field as opposed to group gear.))

     

    I do not agree. This is the paradigm of current MMOs - is it what we want for Pantheon?

    Hypothetically assume a raid. One boss. Easy to get to. No special mechanics. So powerful and with so many hit points that it cannot feasibly be killed by less than three groups at-level. Fight takes 5 minutes.

    Now assume a single-group encounter. Takes an hour or two to get to. Victory requires debuffing at the right times, crowd control for adds, an off-tank to control adds, good healing promptly applied to the right character - not just keeping the tank alive.

    Which of these is harder? Which should provide better rewards?

     

    Pantheon is intended to be a game focusing on grouping. Not raiding. It is a truism that one rewards conduct one wishes to encourage and does not reward conduct one does not wish to encourage.

    I am certain that if I discussed the benefits I could get playing solo - you would say that this is a group game and solo play should be be less rewarding.  

    This cuts both ways. This is group game - raiding should be less rewarding. Any fool can get carried in a raid of 30 players while others do the work. But a challenging group encounter will fail if any of the group members is seriously inadaquate. Yes, of course a raid is composed of groups but VR has stated they are focusing on the single group experience not the raid experience or the solo experience.


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 30, 2019 8:44 AM PDT
    • 370 posts
    September 30, 2019 8:46 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    ((Such as raid gear should be on a whole different playing field as opposed to group gear.))

     

    I do not agree. This is the paradigm of current MMOs - is it what we want for Pantheon?

    Hypothetically assume a raid. One boss. Easy to get to. No special mechanics. So powerful and with so many hit points that it cannot feasibly be killed by less than three groups at-level. Fight takes 5 minutes.

    Now assume a single-group encounter. Takes an hour or two to get to. Victory requires debuffing at the right times, crowd control for adds, an off-tank to control adds, good healing promptly applied to the right character - not just keeping the tank alive.

    Which of these is harder? Which should provide better rewards?

     

    Pantheon is intended to be a game focusing on grouping. Not raiding. It is a truism that one rewards conduct one wishes to encourage and does not reward conduct one does not wish to encourage.

    I am certain that if I discussed the benefits I could get playing solo - you would say that this is a group game and solo play should be be less rewarding.  

    This cuts both ways. This is group game - raiding should be less rewarding. Any fool can get carried in a raid of 30 players while others do the work. But a challenging group encounter will fail if any of the group members is seriously inadaquate. Yes, of course a raid is composed of groups but VR has stated they are focusing on the single group experience not the raid experience or the solo experience.

     

    Your assuming a raid is one fight. Most often times it is not. It typically involves multiple boss and a whole lot of trash that group gear should just not be cut out for.

    • 2756 posts
    September 30, 2019 8:46 AM PDT

    I go toward the difficult/challenging stuff *unless* I've done it a lot already on alts or even on the same character.

    I don't avoid easy stuff though, *unless* I've done it a lot already, etc, etc.

    I want everything to be a challenge and I'd rather VR err on the side of too difficult than too easy.  As long as there is plenty of hard stuff, it's ok if there is easy stuff too.

    There will always be people that would rather grind easy stuff than do the challenging stuff *shrug* I don't get it, but as long as the game isn't built *for* them I don't mind if there is *some* stuff for them.

    As long as VR realise that part of 'old skool' is 'challenge' (and I'm sure they do - they have said as much) then it should be fine.

    To answer the OP's point about *rewarding* people *more* for doing things the hard way, well, that's just balance?  I have some faith that VR, with their wealth of experience and their old skool vision, will do a good job of balancing risk and reward.

    • 75 posts
    September 30, 2019 9:05 AM PDT

    Also on an unrelated note since we talking a little old school, am I the only one that hopes they bring back GM events? Loved when a GM came on and held an event like transforming everyone into level 1 gnomes and only a wand and last one to stand won some prizes. Or in WoW when a GM would get on and summon a bunch of adds in a zone and reward people with potions or some money. Kind of brought the community together for a moment.

    • 370 posts
    September 30, 2019 9:09 AM PDT

    OGTomkins said:

    Also on an unrelated note since we talking a little old school, am I the only one that hopes they bring back GM events? Loved when a GM came on and held an event like transforming everyone into level 1 gnomes and only a wand and last one to stand won some prizes. Or in WoW when a GM would get on and summon a bunch of adds in a zone and reward people with potions or some money. Kind of brought the community together for a moment.

     

    Arguably some of the funnest MMO experiences I've had were centered around such events!


    This post was edited by arazons at September 30, 2019 9:09 AM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    September 30, 2019 9:11 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    That led me to ask:  Is the problem the game, or the players?

    Regardless of how long we've been playing MMORPGs, we live in a player culture that prioritizes efficient progression above everything else.  Even back in the early days of EverQuest, I can think of plenty of examples where people would flock to the dungeons with the "best" experience, or camp in the zones with the easiest pulls.  In the vast majority of games I've played, players intentionally avoid risk and challenge while they're progressing - then they hit the level cap and suddenly decide they need to play a harder game. 

    We have to understand why players react this way.  Players are not actually risk adverse.  You are right when you mention efficiency Neph.

    The way these games are designed is that players gain power as they progress.  Players are constantly looking for the most efficient way their character can gain power.  Whether that is an easy exp. camp or a difficult camp with powerful item drops.  Whatever that individual perceives as the best way to make their character more powerful is what players will flock to.

    I rarely see people cite that their primary goal in game is to increase their character's power...but everyone plays as if it is to some extent.

    It's not that players are inherently risk adverse (at times we see players fail 100 times in a row running the most difficult/challenging content).  That content can reward large power increases.  It is how mmos are designed that lead players down the path of least resistance.  Whatever path will best increase their character's power is the path players will follow.


    This post was edited by philo at September 30, 2019 9:17 AM PDT
    • 75 posts
    September 30, 2019 9:20 AM PDT

    arazons said:

    OGTomkins said:

    Also on an unrelated note since we talking a little old school, am I the only one that hopes they bring back GM events? Loved when a GM came on and held an event like transforming everyone into level 1 gnomes and only a wand and last one to stand won some prizes. Or in WoW when a GM would get on and summon a bunch of adds in a zone and reward people with potions or some money. Kind of brought the community together for a moment.

     

    Arguably some of the funnest MMO experiences I've had were centered around such events!

    Right?! I hope they do this to some extent, was always fun seeing the Devs having fun as well!

    • 2752 posts
    September 30, 2019 9:56 AM PDT

    I would like to see them make it so the rewards for taking on greater challenge are such that it is the most efficient way to level, if a group is good enough to pull it off. 

     

    The reason so many MMOs devolve into AoE farms or mass pulls/chains of low(er) risk blue cons is because the rewards for going above and beyond typically don't scale very well. Why exhaust almost all of a groups resources and risk a higher chance of death to spend 2-5 minutes killing and recovering from an orange/low red con to get 300xp when you can kill 5+ blue cons at 75xp a pop with no need to rest and very little risk of dying? 

     

    So higher cons should reward increasingly more exp for the risk involved. If you have a top notch group slowly grinding away 1 red con every few minutes, basically doing mini boss battles, then they should end up leveling faster (assuming no deaths) than the random pickup group chaining blue and even /con mobs. 

    • 2138 posts
    September 30, 2019 9:57 AM PDT

    In support of Tompkins and a bit of Nephele, I lean towards what many want to lean away from, namely questing.

    Make questing the focus. Instead of- as Cohh mentioned as his opinion "getting on and killing stuff" . Give killing stuff a purpose, a reason to kill stuff is what I am saying and make that reason a path of discovery and coinidental self-imposed delay. Being self-imposed it doesnt feel like a gate to the player but rather a goal to strive for. The player does not know its self imposed.

     In other words, following quest hints leads you to a cave or area, but upon entering you realize it is way too tough for you or your group. So your plan of action is to put that quest on hold for a bit, but while there, find another quest? or see what the natives are like, gain faction there "take in the air"  and while so doing put that quest on hold- in your journal perhaps. Only to come back and say oh yeah! I can go in here now to finish this thing.

    In other words, there will be alot of half finished quests to occupy a players time, but the eventual reward and the time and effort it took to get there, being the thing that makes it all worth while.

    not just killing stuff.

     

    • 417 posts
    September 30, 2019 11:44 AM PDT

    It is the nature of most games to win and so gamers will try to find the best strategies to win whatever game they are playing. In general it is the game itself that defines what the winning conditions are. What are the winning conditions of Pantheon? I believe MMORPG's have their roots in table top games like D+D, what did it mean to win in a D+D adventure? Even with D+D, there are drastic differences how groups approach the game, some groups are very role-play heavy where the fun is the interactions between characters, other groups are hack n slash oriented, while some groups like low level campaigns and little magic but others prefer high level god like adventures. But in the end, completing the adventure and advancing your character in some way were the ultimate goal.

     

    VR is the DM for Pantheon and defining what sort of "campaign" we are in is in their hands. In Pantheon, the 3 big ways I see characters advancing are level, gear, and skills/spells. In terms of level advancement VR doesn't have a lot of control how players go about that but with gear and skills/spells aquisition they can really encourage players to go off the beaten path and delve into the most challenging content. I've gathered from streams that not all skills/spells will be given at level advancement so players will have to search these out if they wish to aquire them. People that rush to level without exploring will find themselves without these skills/spells.

     

    My hope is that through slow leveling, few but meaningful gear upgrades, and the need to explore to find new skills/spells that VR will help to encourage the mindset that end level is not the winning of Pantheon but that the journey and overcoming each difficult challenge is.

     

     

    • 3852 posts
    September 30, 2019 11:57 AM PDT

    ((Make questing the focus. Instead of- as Cohh mentioned as his opinion "getting on and killing stuff" . Give killing stuff a purpose, a reason to kill stuff is what I am saying and make that reason a path of discovery and coinidental self-imposed delay. Being self-imposed it doesnt feel like a gate to the player but rather a goal to strive for. The player does not know its self imposed.))

    Amen. Even quests with relatively small rewards are far less mind-numbing than killing things for no reason whatsoever other than the experience points per kill.

     

    ((Your assuming a raid is one fight. Most often times it is not. It typically involves multiple boss and a whole lot of trash that group gear should just not be cut out for.))

     

    Not at all - I was giving two extremes - one very easy raid versus one very difficult single group fight. To support my point that the difficulty of the content should dictate what the rewards are and *not* the number of characters involved. A difficult raid should give better rewards than a trivial group encounter, but so too a difficult group encounter should give better rewards than a trivial raid. 

    My disagreement was with the comment that rewards for a raid should automatically "be on a whole different playing field" than rewards for a single group encounter. They should not be. They should be tied to the difficulty of the content.

    • 1436 posts
    September 30, 2019 12:11 PM PDT

    That led me to ask:  Is the problem the game, or the players.

    (disclaimer this is personal opinion based on individual observation.  there are no supporting facts, numbers or figures.  please take it as a grain of salt.)

    it's really dependent the society of the players.

    take the following examples:

    p2w is a very chinese way of thinking.  those that have money and power rule.

    japanese indulge in mastery, individual talent, skills and hardwork.

    americans are about pioneering(although i'm not so sure nowadays >.>)

    europeans lean towards inventiveness.  the best out of the box thinking usually originates here.

     

    obviously there can be conflicting views here depending on which combination i throw in.

    to answer your question one must ask the devs what do they want to teach us and what should we learn?  will we learn and apply?  what are the rules of the world and should we play fairly or cheat?

     

    personal note:  i view vr as wanting to teach us to pioneer, be inventive and build communication skills.  i define this as 'the traditional values of old school mmorpgs'.  what do you think vr wants to teach us?

    also i wanted to add that i tend to be very anti meta and high risk should have high reward.  a poker player doesn't play just to play.  he plays for the high risk zero sum winner takes all.

    i keep forgetting to answer the main question:

    to reward players for doing the hard way is pretty easy for vr to do.  with the acclimation system, those that grinded super hard to have super high acclimation can gain access to a hardcore dungeon in a dangerous enviroment with dangerous inhabitants offering dangerous weapons and armor :D


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at September 30, 2019 1:19 PM PDT