Part of the frustration I think on some people is that nothing has been delivered in awhile. Everyone realizes how hard they are working, and how difficult it is to build a game like this. But it doesn't take much for one person to run around their team collecting a picture or two and a sound bit of what they are working on, or even a 30 second video showing them doing their job. I don't think the people that are frustrated are asking for the game to be released tomorrow. I think they are saying that they would like something, anything to chew on while they are waiting.
It's pretty obvious at how every little detail gets analyzed and over analyzed here that they are wanting anything to scratch their itch so to speak. Doesn't have to be ground breaking, or release date revealing or anything like that. Just something that says hey we know you guys are getting impatient this is all we can give you right now.
Moloka said:Part of the frustration I think on some people is that nothing has been delivered in awhile. Everyone realizes how hard they are working, and how difficult it is to build a game like this. But it doesn't take much for one person to run around their team collecting a picture or two and a sound bit of what they are working on, or even a 30 second video showing them doing their job. I don't think the people that are frustrated are asking for the game to be released tomorrow. I think they are saying that they would like something, anything to chew on while they are waiting.
It's pretty obvious at how every little detail gets analyzed and over analyzed here that they are wanting anything to scratch their itch so to speak. Doesn't have to be ground breaking, or release date revealing or anything like that. Just something that says hey we know you guys are getting impatient this is all we can give you right now.
Have stated this multiple times in multiple forums, glad to see I'm not the only one.
oneADseven said:I'm not sure if we have been reading the same newsletters. Between 06/2018 - 11/2018 -- "Project Faerthale" was instead called a "Reference Zone" as you can see in that link I provided. The scope of the project was essentially the same as can be seen with this recurring verbiage: "But to put it simply, it means Faerthale will be the first zone to have all of our gameplay systems completely integrated. Or you could say, the first zone where the “Pantheon experience” will be able to be fully experienced."
From 06/2018:
"In other news, we are working on a new zone: Faerthale, the starting city zone of the Lucent, Ember and Ashen Elves. Faerthale rests on the western border of Kingsreach, opposite Thronefast in the East."
"As our Reference Zone, Faerthale needs to have all of the gameplay systems intact and functioning properly, with all of their various parts, so that we have an accurate picture to reference when we begin implementing all of these systems into the rest of our zones. It’s quite exciting, and I can’t wait for our testers to get their hands on it!"
From 08/2018:
"The artists already have a lot of work done for the new zone Faerthale and are adding more assets like models, animations and visual effects. They are also working on zone building and placements."
From 09/2018:
"We’re very excited for Pre-Alpha 4. It’s representative of a “first draft” at a full Pantheon experience with all Classes and a balanced approach to a new zone design."
From 10/2018:
"We are pushing hard to prepare Pre-Alpha 4 and the excitement is palpable as we make the finishing touches on the build that will introduce Faerthale to our playtesters."
"The past month of September the team has continued work on Faerthale, class implementation up to level 40 and several development tools."
From 11/2018:
"Pre-Alpha 4 Begins
The team has been hauling butt on preparing a new zone, new races, harvesting and adding more classes to the game. We are happy to say the efforts have culminated into a solid date for Pre-Alpha 4 where our testers will be able to see an early rendition of Faerthale and try out the newly modeled elf, ogre and halfling races."
From 12/2018:
"For the first time since development started we are bringing together the full Pantheon experience, with all of the systems, animations, models, sounds, and effects one would expect to see in a modern game. With the end of Pre-Alpha 4 coming up in a couple of short weeks, we are happy with the state of Pantheon and it’s time to really flesh out the concepts and systems we have in place. We also aim to add in a few new systems we have talked about but haven’t quite worked into a Pre-Alpha build.
This project, dubbed Project Faerthale, will show Pantheon as it is meant to be experienced."
From 01/2019:
"As discussed last month, Project Faerthale is underway. Now that we are back from holidays we are finalizing our scope for that release and setting some internal goal dates."
Now ... let's rewind a bit, going back to 08/2018:"PA4 This Fall
PA4 will be available to our pre-alpha testers this fall.
And just how many PA phases are there before alpha? We can’t answer that just yet. The idea, though, is to use PA4 as a reference point, or a reference zone, as Joppa spoke about in June. This means that by PA4 most systems will be in place. The small remainder of systems will be added prior to alpha, but for all intents and purposes, the core Pantheon experience will be available for PA4 and beyond. This means that in PA5 and onward more world building can be done. Systems will continue to be refined but will no longer need to be built. That accelerates things greatly so expect the later PA sessions to come a lot quicker and more regularly than the early Pre-Alphas."
This is where the disconnect lies. As of August 2018, the plan was to have that core experience ready by November of 2018, AKA PA4. That obviously didn't happen. In December, "Faerthale, the Reference Zone" was transformed into "Project Faerthale." Again, though, consider the scope that was shared in June and August of 2018 and compare it to December of 2018. The PA5 that might happen this year is similar in scope to the PA4 that was imagined/envisioned back in August of 2018. We're basically a session behind what was planned (PA5 will be what PA4 was supposed to be), and it's worth noting that a PA5 was planned, and "later PA sessions" were alluded to even beyond that. This inclines me to believe that we'll probably see up to 8 PA sessions before seeing another hiatus prior to Alpha. I have seen several comments suggesting that PA5 is the last intended version of PA. No idea where this stuff comes from but it seems highly unlikely.
I think the disconnect is in what is given in the newsletters. I'd prefer them to go completely quiet. From what I gathered, they continued further into more range of content as opposed to Faerthale City. Since we don't know the details, my speculation is that in December, they decided to go fully into PF instead of working on Faerthale City in tandem with the rest of Alpha content. Yours is that they were somehow working on what we now know as Project Faerthale in entirety as far back as last Summer.
We're both speculating at this point.
Well it has been many months since I last posted. My advice to people is to just relax and check into on the status of the game every 3/4 months. The game is still years away from a true release. This is just my 4 month scan of the forums to see what is going on. In the meantime enjoy life and if the game makes it to Alpha / Beta / Release great. If not we will all survive. I'm confident some version of the game will release in a few years, but I have little hope that it will meat my expectations. I will still give it a shot when it release and deside from there. I have alpha and beta access if they happen, but dought I will participate. My preference is to see the game fresh when released.
Janus said:I think the disconnect is in what is given in the newsletters. I'd prefer them to go completely quiet. From what I gathered, they continued further into more range of content as opposed to Faerthale City. Since we don't know the details, my speculation is that in December, they decided to go fully into PF instead of working on Faerthale City in tandem with the rest of Alpha content. Yours is that they were somehow working on what we now know as Project Faerthale in entirety as far back as last Summer.
We're both speculating at this point.
I'm not sure how any of that can be misconstrued as speculation. All of those quotes were pulled from the "Under Wraps" section of the monthly newsletters. It was a publically stated design goal to have "the core Pantheon experience available for PA4 and beyond." It was stated that after PA4, more world-building could be done and that the rate of development would be accelerated greatly. It was stated that systems would no longer need to be built. This was back in August of 2018. Let's compare a few things:
According to the June 2018 Newsletter, the following features/systems/mechanics were being emphasized as part of the "core experience" that the "reference zone" project was comprised of:
1) Dynamic day/night cycles.
2) Time of day governing events and spawn cycles.
3) Atmospheres that will require artifacts to overcome.
4) Extreme environments that will require players to acclimate themselves.
5) Perception system woven throughout and the ability to become a keeper.
6) NPC dispositions widely applied and appropriately unpredictable.
7) Crafting and harvesting elements.
8) Climbable surfaces.
9) Interactable objects.
Then we saw this in the August 2018 Newsletter:
"And just how many PA phases are there before alpha? We can’t answer that just yet. The idea, though, is to use PA4 as a reference point, or a reference zone, as Joppa spoke about in June. This means that by PA4 most systems will be in place. The small remainder of systems will be added prior to alpha, but for all intents and purposes the core Pantheon experience will be available for PA4 and beyond. This means that in PA5 and onward more world building can be done. Systems will continue to be refined but will no longer need to be built. That accelerates things greatly so expect the later PA sessions to come a lot quicker and more regularly than the early Pre-Alphas."
Then we saw this in the September 2018 Newsletter:
"Pre-Alpha 3 finished up a little over 2 weeks ago and the team is full steam ahead on meeting our goals for Pre-Alpha 4."
I don't think it's fair to say that I am speculating here. There is a clear timeline. Goals were established in June, reinforced in August, and then in September, they were still "full steam ahead on meeting our goals for Pre-Alpha 4." There was no mention of those goals changing.
One month later, in October of 2018, #7 (1 box checked) on that original checklist was highlighted here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2018_october_harvesting_update/
One month later, in November of 2018, #5 (2 boxes checked) on that original checklist was highlighted here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2018_november_behind_the_design_perception/
PA4 is also officially announced in the November Newsletter, with a start date of 11/25/2018. 2 of the 9 boxes on the checklist have been featured in a newsletter up to this point. It becomes clear that the goal of having 9/9 of those boxes checked off in time for PA4 isn't going to happen. What does happen, though, is the pre-alpha packages become available once more, as noted here:
"Pre-Alpha 4 Begins
The team has been hauling butt on preparing a new zone, new races, harvesting and adding more classes to the game. We are happy to say the efforts have culminated into a solid date for Pre-Alpha 4 where our testers will be able to see an early rendition of Faerthale and try out the newly modeled elf, ogre and halfling races. PA4 testers will also be able to try all classes for the first time. Harvesting is also available in PA4 for its inaugural debut.
Get in on Pre-Alpha
Our technology and server performance have steadily improved over development so we are now able to add more testers to pre-alpha testing. Please remember that this should NOT be considered early access but rather a chance to truly test Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen in its early stages in a state that most gamers will never experience. It’s a behind-the-scenes experience rather than a full game experience. Pre-alpha pledges are now open again and you can pick one up for a limited time on our pledge page."
Once again I would cite the above timeline as the main source of the apparent disconnect. I'm not twisting anything. I'm not preaching doom and gloom or engaging in fear-mongering. There was an expectation that PA4 would deliver a Pantheon build that was consistent with what was advertised in the 06/2018 & 08/2018 newsletters. In September, VR was full steam ahead on meeting that goal. At some point between October and November, it was decided that PA4 was going to launch early, at least relative to what it was supposed to encompass, and that testers would instead be able to enjoy an "early rendition of Faerthale."
When we go back to that 06/2018 checklist, that was supposed to be completed by PA4, we can see a bunch of those boxes being checked throughout 2019. At least in concept:
#3 (3 boxes checked) on the original checklist is featured in the 02/2019 Newsletter: https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_february_behind_the_design/
#6 (4 boxes checked) on the original checklist is featured in the 03/2019 Newsletter: https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_march_behind_the_design/
#8 (5 boxed checked) on the original checklist is featured in the 07/2019 Newsletter: http://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_july_underwraps/
#4 (6 boxes checked) on the original checklist is featured in the 08/2019 Newsletter: http://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_august_behind_the_design/
Do you see the pattern here? We still have a few boxes that need checks and I am sure they will be featured in an upcoming newsletter. People should stop disparaging others for how they manage their expectations, particularly when they are aligned with the information that has been provided to them. If anybody sees someone waving around pitchforks and torches then, by all means, have at it. I have been called both a white knight and a witch hunter as a member of this community but I tend to consider myself more of a realist. Truth is ... I was burned when it came to managing my own expectations, as is quite obvious if you read my posts from the thread that Vjek linked on page 1.
I was under the impression that pre-alpha wasn't going to last more than a couple months. We're closing in on two years. I am not angry or bitter, but I do feel compelled to shine a light on any/all relevant information that can help others avoid that same kind of situation. I have been consistent in saying that I want VR to take as long as necessary with PF. Hell, I said back in December of 2018 that I hoped they would take at least another year from that point working on it because of how it was advertised. The full experience. VR has set the bar incredibly high with this project and they need to get it right. At the same time, it's important to be open and honest so that players don't feel let down or mislead. Transparency is important because it improves the quality of discussion in the community. A few things to consider:
Pantheon is a crowd-founded game that exists almost entirely on the internet.
Any time you have an operation that involves funding/donations, particularly on the internet, a lot of people have an expectation of radical transparency.
"Here's the interesting paradox: The reputation economy creates an incentive to be more open, not less. Since Internet commentary is inescapable, the only way to influence it is to be part of it. Being transparent, opening up, posting interesting material frequently and often is the only way to amass positive links to yourself and thus to directly influence your Googleable reputation. Putting out more evasion or PR puffery won't work, because people will either ignore it and not link to it – or worse, pick the spin apart and enshrine those criticisms high on your Google list of life."
The moral of the story is that transparency in crowdfunding increases donations. Check out this study from 04/2019.
Yeah sorry for outburst of passionate plain, but love for VS. And Pantheon
so us gods children don’t come set from the same mold. That’s a fact Is this highly creative folk may not so so good at golf tennis or a good greek god body etc... were all different. Like that or not. That is how it just is Ok. So Just trust me on this one. In In dought have it otherwise it’s easy just treat others how you like to be treated, ones self. That rule goes a very very long way. Rewards can be instant and gratifying. Just try it.
So ppl come here kinda demanding a refund etc, please Please, Please hold ya horses bro.
I did play and test brads games from 1999 I did a ton of alpha MMO too, I see as follows, Always the best immersive experience you’ll all wish for. Yeah just prepare for the very best imersion, content and did I mention fun p, better get used to the best gaming content in your life! Because it’s all gonna come right here.
Rome wasn’t Built in one day, so justified be paitence my friends you will all be rewarded and blessed with love.
Belive tats all you won’t regret it.
Love Tolo.
.
oneADseven said:Janus said:I think the disconnect is in what is given in the newsletters. I'd prefer them to go completely quiet. From what I gathered, they continued further into more range of content as opposed to Faerthale City. Since we don't know the details, my speculation is that in December, they decided to go fully into PF instead of working on Faerthale City in tandem with the rest of Alpha content. Yours is that they were somehow working on what we now know as Project Faerthale in entirety as far back as last Summer.
We're both speculating at this point.
I'm not sure how any of that can be misconstrued as speculation. All of those quotes were pulled from the "Under Wraps" section of the monthly newsletters. It was a publically stated design goal to have "the core Pantheon experience available for PA4 and beyond." It was stated that after PA4, more world-building could be done and that the rate of development would be accelerated greatly. It was stated that systems would no longer need to be built. This was back in August of 2018. Let's compare a few things:
According to the June 2018 Newsletter, the following features/systems/mechanics were being emphasized as part of the "core experience" that the "reference zone" project was comprised of:
1) Dynamic day/night cycles.
2) Time of day governing events and spawn cycles.
3) Atmospheres that will require artifacts to overcome.
4) Extreme environments that will require players to acclimate themselves.
5) Perception system woven throughout and the ability to become a keeper.
6) NPC dispositions widely applied and appropriately unpredictable.
7) Crafting and harvesting elements.
8) Climbable surfaces.
9) Interactable objects.
Then we saw this in the August 2018 Newsletter:
"And just how many PA phases are there before alpha? We can’t answer that just yet. The idea, though, is to use PA4 as a reference point, or a reference zone, as Joppa spoke about in June. This means that by PA4 most systems will be in place. The small remainder of systems will be added prior to alpha, but for all intents and purposes the core Pantheon experience will be available for PA4 and beyond. This means that in PA5 and onward more world building can be done. Systems will continue to be refined but will no longer need to be built. That accelerates things greatly so expect the later PA sessions to come a lot quicker and more regularly than the early Pre-Alphas."
Then we saw this in the September 2018 Newsletter:
"Pre-Alpha 3 finished up a little over 2 weeks ago and the team is full steam ahead on meeting our goals for Pre-Alpha 4."
I don't think it's fair to say that I am speculating here. There is a clear timeline. Goals were established in June, reinforced in August, and then in September, they were still "full steam ahead on meeting our goals for Pre-Alpha 4." There was no mention of those goals changing.
One month later, in October of 2018, #7 (1 box checked) on that original checklist was highlighted here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2018_october_harvesting_update/
One month later, in November of 2018, #5 (2 boxes checked) on that original checklist was highlighted here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2018_november_behind_the_design_perception/
PA4 is also officially announced in the November Newsletter, with a start date of 11/25/2018. 2 of the 9 boxes on the checklist have been featured in a newsletter up to this point. It becomes clear that the goal of having 9/9 of those boxes checked off in time for PA4 isn't going to happen. What does happen, though, is the pre-alpha packages become available once more, as noted here:
"Pre-Alpha 4 Begins
The team has been hauling butt on preparing a new zone, new races, harvesting and adding more classes to the game. We are happy to say the efforts have culminated into a solid date for Pre-Alpha 4 where our testers will be able to see an early rendition of Faerthale and try out the newly modeled elf, ogre and halfling races. PA4 testers will also be able to try all classes for the first time. Harvesting is also available in PA4 for its inaugural debut.
Get in on Pre-Alpha
Our technology and server performance have steadily improved over development so we are now able to add more testers to pre-alpha testing. Please remember that this should NOT be considered early access but rather a chance to truly test Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen in its early stages in a state that most gamers will never experience. It’s a behind-the-scenes experience rather than a full game experience. Pre-alpha pledges are now open again and you can pick one up for a limited time on our pledge page."
Once again I would cite the above timeline as the main source of the apparent disconnect. I'm not twisting anything. I'm not preaching doom and gloom or engaging in fear-mongering. There was an expectation that PA4 would deliver a Pantheon build that was consistent with what was advertised in the 06/2018 & 08/2018 newsletters. In September, VR was full steam ahead on meeting that goal. At some point between October and November, it was decided that PA4 was going to launch early, at least relative to what it was supposed to encompass, and that testers would instead be able to enjoy an "early rendition of Faerthale."
When we go back to that 06/2018 checklist, that was supposed to be completed by PA4, we can see a bunch of those boxes being checked throughout 2019. At least in concept:
#3 (3 boxes checked) on the original checklist is featured in the 02/2019 Newsletter: https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_february_behind_the_design/
#6 (4 boxes checked) on the original checklist is featured in the 03/2019 Newsletter: https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_march_behind_the_design/
#8 (5 boxed checked) on the original checklist is featured in the 07/2019 Newsletter: http://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_july_underwraps/
#4 (6 boxes checked) on the original checklist is featured in the 08/2019 Newsletter: http://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_august_behind_the_design/
Do you see the pattern here? We still have a few boxes that need checks and I am sure they will be featured in an upcoming newsletter. People should stop disparaging others for how they manage their expectations, particularly when they are aligned with the information that has been provided to them. If anybody sees someone waving around pitchforks and torches then, by all means, have at it. I have been called both a white knight and a witch hunter as a member of this community but I tend to consider myself more of a realist. Truth is ... I was burned when it came to managing my own expectations, as is quite obvious if you read my posts from the thread that Vjek linked on page 1.
I was under the impression that pre-alpha wasn't going to last more than a couple months. We're closing in on two years. I am not angry or bitter, but I do feel compelled to shine a light on any/all relevant information that can help others avoid that same kind of situation. I have been consistent in saying that I want VR to take as long as necessary with PF. Hell, I said back in December of 2018 that I hoped they would take at least another year from that point working on it because of how it was advertised. The full experience. VR has set the bar incredibly high with this project and they need to get it right. At the same time, it's important to be open and honest so that players don't feel let down or mislead. Transparency is important because it improves the quality of discussion in the community. A few things to consider:
Pantheon is a crowd-founded game that exists almost entirely on the internet.
Any time you have an operation that involves funding/donations, particularly on the internet, a lot of people have an expectation of radical transparency.
"Here's the interesting paradox: The reputation economy creates an incentive to be more open, not less. Since Internet commentary is inescapable, the only way to influence it is to be part of it. Being transparent, opening up, posting interesting material frequently and often is the only way to amass positive links to yourself and thus to directly influence your Googleable reputation. Putting out more evasion or PR puffery won't work, because people will either ignore it and not link to it – or worse, pick the spin apart and enshrine those criticisms high on your Google list of life."
The moral of the story is that transparency in crowdfunding increases donations. Check out this study from 04/2019.
Well said man.
antonius said:I am sorry but anyone who says they are not worried has their head in the sand and is just ignoring the very obvious facts.
please show me the way sir. i don't want my head stuck in the sand. could you kindly slap me with obvious facts that i'm oblivious to? quickly before 187 buries me in text :D
antonius said:I am sorry but anyone who says they are not worried has their head in the sand and is just ignoring the very obvious facts.
Well, I'm not worried at this point, and don't consider myself oblivious to anything in regards to PRotF. Perhaps you could enlighten those of us whom are ignoring these so called obvious facts as to what exactly they are.
So can we get some feedback then ? I just want to know how close the current pa is to completion , and if there will be another pa after or a Alpha. The main concerns have already been established , but a real update on current state of development be greatly appreciated . I understand if you are behind , but how far or how close to this phase being finished will go miles.
Raidil said:Kilsin said:Fragile said:Nailed it. Kilsin you better read this one ^^
I read everything man ;)
That is good and helpful in a post like there to know that at least VR is listening. That can give some hope
Kilsin is the community manager, and we all think he does a decent job, but him reading our concerns means little. There's literally nothing he can do to force the decision makers to be more transparent about exactly what is taking the team so freaking long to make one zone. Kilsin may know what the problems and hang ups are, but he's not going to be authorized to tell us. The entire team at VR knows how restless the fanbase is, and I'm sure they know how "late" they are on this PF update. For better or worse, they're going all in on this radio silence thing. The gamble is that if the PF reveal is excellent, all will be forgiven and the hype/support will return....and they are right. The mistake is potentially that the PF reveal falls short of expectations, especially after this extensive delay, and that disappointment coupled with the bad taste of hiding their struggles as we've asked about them makes people just walk away. One of the two outcomes will occur, there's not going to be a middle ground. Hopefully they deliver, faith is restored, and it's onward and upward.
"...what is taking the team so freaking long to make one zone."
This is a bit like asking what was taking so long, why did it cost so much and what was so difficult about the Apollo missions? It was just a simple rocket.
Janus said:"...what is taking the team so freaking long to make one zone."
This is a bit like asking what was taking so long, why did it cost so much and what was so difficult about the Apollo missions? It was just a simple rocket.
You keep white knighting this Janus, but your metaphor is beyond ridiculous. This project has died and been restarted at least twice. This team was down to volunteers and first timers at one point, still is to some degree. You've been rebutted extensively in this thread by others. I get you think the team is doing rocket science. I hope you aren't too disappointed with the reveal when it's exactly what they've said it was going to be...one massive zone. The question is how good is this one zone going to be? I'm enjoying WoW Classic atm, some of those zones are absolutely massive, and almost all are polished and well done with many pockets of content. Considering they are copies of a 15 year old game, I think that's the minimum bar PF has to reach. We'll see if your incredible optimism is rewarded. In the meantime, back to the best thing going in the MMO space atm, sad as that may be.
oneADseven said:
There was an expectation that PA4 would deliver a Pantheon build that was consistent with what was advertised in the 06/2018 & 08/2018 newsletters. In September, VR was full steam ahead on meeting that goal. At some point between October and November, it was decided that PA4 was going to launch early, at least relative to what it was supposed to encompass, and that testers would instead be able to enjoy an "early rendition of Faerthale."
I was under the impression that pre-alpha wasn't going to last more than a couple months. We're closing in on two years.
It has been over 1 year that the only thing I read is the newsletter and that only partly because I am not much interested in screenshots showing concepts or handdrawn pictures.
But I do clearly remember my state of mind during the first half of 2018 and this is fully consistent with what you analysed. I have indeed been lead to believe that PA4 was going to show Faerthale (zone/region/town) with all systems implemented so that the hardest part will have been done. Only PA4 testers know what they have seen in reality and how far it was from the initial target. However they can't and won't tell . And VR can't and won't tell either.
What stays is that the development is demonstrably 1 year and probably more behind schedule and that's it. Is Pantheon in trouble? No idea but the only rationnal conclusion I can draw is to forget all this and to come and check the state of the project again in about 1 year.
So see you all around october 2020 :)
"You keep white knighting this Janus, but your metaphor is beyond ridiculous"
If you follow anything I've said outside of the forums, you'll know where my criticisms are. I have a lot and I'm very vocal about them, but they don't approach the issues addressed here regarding Project Faerthale. Simply because the direction they're going in is better than the one prior where they were completely opened and forced to redirect for display purposes and then open themselves up to continuous criticism of each and every aspect of development.
The metaphor as I said, "is a bit like...". I didn't say exactly like.
"I'm enjoying WoW Classic atm, some of those zones are absolutely massive, and almost all are polished and well done with many pockets of content."
That's great but also lends to the shift in your position. The zones are not massive though, some are fairly big but you're talking about a game that doesn't require much in terms of art direction due to the detail and resolution of the textures. It's not difficult to polish something that like that but it's a low bar in that sense. ESO zones are larger but like WoW, they feel more like content for the single player experience, more so than actual grouping which is then reduced to a linear instanced dungeon run. This is something I'd like to move away from and is why Pantheon holds a higher position in my mind regardless of how much I enjoyed WoW and ESO.
"Considering they are copies of a 15 year old game, I think that's the minimum bar PF has to reach."
I'd like to know why it took so long to create Classic WoW given that they had the content available. I know people can defend the delays and how long it took, much like I have regarding Project Faerthale, but it's not really something I'd defend when equating it to a comparative bar-position. You're also going to be comparing a multi-billion dollars company with a crowd-funded one. Blizzard-Activision really have no leg to stand on given the time it took to bring Classic WoW.
"We'll see if your incredible optimism is rewarded."
I wouldn't call it 'incredible'. To be honest, I only want to play an Enchanter again after all this time in a world where content is actually dangerous, where risk exists outside of a scripted, instanced environment. For the general public, we're looking for PF to be representative of what Pantheon is in near totality. If they can do that, then it's a success. I've been correct 19 out of 21 times in predictions for MMORPGs since 2002. Pantheon may make it 20:2 but I agree, it could very well make it 19:3.
"In the meantime, back to the best thing going in the MMO space atm, sad as that may be."
That's subjective. To you, yes. To others, no. Currently, WoW Classic, P99 Green, DDO, Rift etc., are all that people have for a return to some type of classic formula. I will agree with you though in that the future seems to be limited to our hopes for Pantheon and for the reprisal of legacy MMORPGs. I hope you enjoy your time in WoW Classic though, truly. I'm finally back to gaming myself after 16 months and I'll dabble a bit myself as well as in P99 Green, DDO and the like. If anything, they are good substitutes while waiting for Pantheon and again once Alpha kicks off and in the periods testing isn't live.
antonius said:I am sorry but anyone who says they are not worried has their head in the sand and is just ignoring the very obvious facts.
Nope. The ones who are seriously 'worried' are the ones with "their head in the sand". The rest of us that are actually concerned and interested have had more than enough information to know things are going fine.
Janus said:"Considering they are copies of a 15 year old game, I think that's the minimum bar PF has to reach."
I'd like to know why it took so long to create Classic WoW given that they had the content available. I know people can defend the delays and how long it took, much like I have regarding Project Faerthale, but it's not really something I'd defend when equating it to a comparative bar-position. You're also going to be comparing a multi-billion dollars company with a crowd-funded one. Blizzard-Activision really have no leg to stand on given the time it took to bring Classic WoW.
I'm only quoting this because I'm not going to jump in between you 2 on the other subjects. Thats up to him to defend or change his opinion on. I can say as far as the whole multi-billion dollar company not putting in a wow classic wasn't due to terms of money or production hell even laziness. They flat out stated for YEARS and YEARS they simply weren't going to do a Classic WoW. Thats been on forums as long as I can remember. So it's not really about them having a leg to stand on in terms of time x money = production more over the big exects finally saying ok fine we'll do a Classic WoW. No different then when EQ decided to do progression servers.
W/e made blizzard decide to change their mind is only going to be known to them. But they are pretty firm on decisions they make when it comes to a yes or no to the public generally
OGTomkins said:They flat out stated for YEARS and YEARS they simply weren't going to do a Classic WoW. Thats been on forums as long as I can remember. So it's not really about them having a leg to stand on in terms of time x money = production more over the big exects finally saying ok fine we'll do a Classic WoW. No different then when EQ decided to do progression servers.
W/e made blizzard decide to change their mind is only going to be known to them. But they are pretty firm on decisions they make when it comes to a yes or no to the public generally
What I meant was how long it took once it was sanctioned by Blizzard/Activision. Especially after Nostalrius. It took them more than two years (development began 4 months prior to the November 2017 announcement) to develop a game that already existed in their 1.12.1 port that they did have on record.
Personally, I don't care about this issue as I know the process takes time, but it's important to be consistent on this issue, especially if people are to criticize a much smaller developer for creating entirely new content as a contrast.