Janus said:Mathir said:Is Pantheon in trouble? Ask me after they reveal Project Faerthale. After a year of working on a single zone, this sucker better blow my mind. Due to the silence and delay, now everything is pretty much riding on this next build being both massive and extremely impressive or a lot of folks are simply going to write the team off as being overmatched.
A single zone can be fairly misleading. It's a bit like the work that was done on the Apollo program in the 60s and wondering why we spent so much money building a simple rocket. This isn't something as simple as building BRK, keep in mind.
We shall see. It would be nice if they gave us an exhaustive list of what they work on each month like Camelot Unchained does. Hopefully, they'll take the time to explain exactly what they have been doing for the last year at some point. I think the biggest issue is that nobody actually knows what they have accomplished, so it makes it difficult to gauge whether we are flushing money down the toilet or not. We know the team is small and has serious limitations in manpower and finances, and I think most of us are extremely hopeful and patient, but radio silence with no end in sight was not the way to handle this milestone. Just a little more explanation of what all Project Faerthale entails would have been helpful. For example, I think it's just a zone that will still have a ton of greyboxing, some animations for a few classes, and some new spell effects. VR knows what this update is going to entail. It doesn't ruin anything to come out and tell us exactly what this milestone will include in generic terms.
There are massive advantages to VR being a small independant team. Maybe if they had a huge publisher behind them, they would have dedicated marketing and communications people with the time to produce all this comforting output. Maybe if people buy out the merchandise shop they will hire someone? Maybe even then, they'd be better off using the money to hire people to help make Bard and Necromancer or release the game earlier.
I also think if they had a huge publisher behind them, Pantheon would probably be like every other MMORPG trying to grab a mass market any way it can to make the quarterly figures look good to the investors.
Being a small team means, as they frequently tell us, they have to 'wear many hats' and get involved in each others work. This also means less time for comms and marketing as I suspect no one is dedicated to those kind of non-delivery tasks. This also has the massive advantage that they are a tight-nit family that are all aware of each others' work and the overall vision for the game. If you've ever worked in both a small, tight team and been a faceless cog in a huge organisation, you will know the obvious benefits of that small team. Yes, there are deficiencies, too, but for a project like Pantheon, I think those deficiencies are greatly outweighed.
Call me a fanboi if you want, but I'm fine with the level of communication and I believe I understand why it is what it is. I don't think I'm being delusional to be totally optimistic about VR and Pantheon.
Mathir said:We shall see. It would be nice if they gave us an exhaustive list of what they work on each month like Camelot Unchained does. Hopefully, they'll take the time to explain exactly what they have been doing for the last year at some point. I think the biggest issue is that nobody actually knows what they have accomplished, so it makes it difficult to gauge whether we are flushing money down the toilet or not. We know the team is small and has serious limitations in manpower and finances, and I think most of us are extremely hopeful and patient, but radio silence with no end in sight was not the way to handle this milestone. Just a little more explanation of what all Project Faerthale entails would have been helpful. For example, I think it's just a zone that will still have a ton of greyboxing, some animations for a few classes, and some new spell effects. VR knows what this update is going to entail. It doesn't ruin anything to come out and tell us exactly what this milestone will include in generic terms.
Here are the details:
"In other news, we are working on a new zone: Faerthale, the starting cityzone of the Lucent, Ember and Ashen Elves. Faerthale rests on the western border of Kingsreach, opposite Thronefast in the East.
What many of you will be interested to know is that we have decided to make Faerthale our Reference Zone. Technically, that means a lot of things. But to put it simply, it means Faerthale will be the first zone to have all of our gameplay systems completely integrated. Or you could say, the first zone where the “Pantheon experience” will be able to be fully experienced.
This includes the foundational gameplay systems you are used to seeing in streams, but everything else as well: dynamic day and night cycles, time of day governing events and spawn cycles, Atmospheres that will require artifacts to overcome, Extreme Climates that will require players to Acclimate themselves, the Perception system woven throughout and the ability to become a Keeper, NPC Dispositions widely applied and appropriately unpredictable, Crafting and Harvesting elements, climbable surfaces, interactable objects in the environment - I think you get the picture!
As our Reference Zone, Faerthale needs to have all of the gameplay systems intact and functioning properly, with all of their various parts, so that we have an accurate picture to reference when we begin implementing all of these systems into the rest of our zones. It’s quite exciting, and I can’t wait for our testers to get their hands on it! Speaking of testing..."
People they don't need to do anyrhing, and we are owed nothing, I get it you want reassurance, that what you donated to is making progress and want some evidence of that, but we aren't owed that, when they give us another video that will be because they want to show us the things they have worked on, not because we are owed anything, we did not buy stocks, or invest into their company in anyway, we DONATED money and that's it, so people going casting all this gloom on their topics stop, your doing nothing more than stopping other people that read these topics to NOT want to donate because they see you are unhappy, see how that actually hurting the product you want to succeed from actually suceeding?
Mathir said:
We shall see. It would be nice if they gave us an exhaustive list of what they work on each month like Camelot Unchained does.
Camelot Unchained does do that to a degree, but may or may not be what's causing that project to delay to the point where people don't know if it will ever release or if they'll be getting what they wanted in that type of MMORPG.
Mathir said:
Hopefully, they'll take the time to explain exactly what they have been doing for the last year at some point. I think the biggest issue is that nobody actually knows what they have accomplished, so it makes it difficult to gauge whether we are flushing money down the toilet or not.
They've given us details a few times as to everything that is going into Project Faerthale and how close it is to the completion towards the Alpha phase. If you mean the specific details within each of the systems, that's something I would expect them to release when it's finished as that would be a serious faux pas if their intent is to broaden the appeal and capture many more people. For that, you need to keep everything close to the chest. Think of it like a bag of stones. You can drop 1 in the water every week and the ripples hit the people who have already pledged or you can save the bag so it's ful and drop it in entirety in the water to create veritable waves which will have a much wider outreach.
Mathir said:
We know the team is small and has serious limitations in manpower and finances..
We can speculate but we don't actually know that for sure. We know they have a big team but they have bottlenecks. They have extremely capable programmers and with 5+ on the team, it's more than enough for this project but they have an issue with art assets. You see, they need to replace (as in replace Unity or non-proprietary assets) and even create art assets for the game to include modeling. This is a hugely time reliant consideration given the relative detail in MMORPGs today. In the late 90s into early 2000s, MMORPGs were incredibly light in this area, especially WoW which had some of the most basic art assets to ever exist. Ultimately though, that would be much quicker with more hiring which is why they need to keep the cards to the chest with regard to Project Faerthale. The creation toolkits in place due to PF it would allow the creation and efficient transition into the game world allowing for zones to be hastily created or Kingsreach which would mostly be updated instead of created.
As for finances, we don't know about their outside investments. Pantheon is currently and as stated a 'partially funded by pledges' project. We don't know how much they receive through pledging and even less so through their outside investments.
Mathir said:
For example, I think it's just a zone that will still have a ton of greyboxing, some animations for a few classes, and some new spell effects.
Going by the content they have been working on for PF over the last five to six newsletters, that would include...
- Dispositions and updated AI
- Perception to include the quest system
- All classes post level 40 to include the Summoner with much more finalized ability loadouts (Streams recently only detail the old listing which was a very limited spell or ability selection per class)
- Spell and ability effects
- Harvesting/Gathering system
- Basics of Crafting
- Climbing/Scaling/Spelunking system
- Climate and Environmental systems
- Further itemization to include armor, weapons and acclimation
- Animations
- Dynamic day/night cycles
- Raid Encounter (Island of the Infinite Storm)
To add and as per the Newsletters...
"With that comes access to another zone we’re super proud of — Faerthale. Not only will the area include the eventual starting city for our hardy and weathered elves, but adventures, dangers, and game concepts the likes of which our players have yet to experience."
"This project, dubbed Project Faerthale, will show Pantheon as it is meant to be experienced. Notice I said “experienced” and not “played” because we believe this next iteration will be much, much closer to our goal of creating a full world, a home, not just a game. It will be the culmination of awesome systems complimented by thoughtful visual effects, animations and sounds. It will be representative of the minimum caliber of game we are targeting for launch. It will also include some exciting new NPCs and at least one significant boss encounter, which is where our new character artist comes in.
This will require intense, sustained focus from all departments, from programming, to tools, to art and animation, to lore, to design, to tech and db... and everything in between. Most importantly, this is going to take time."
Q&A with Brad McQuaid
Q: What has been the most challenging part of Project Faerthale?
A: The planning. As mentioned earlier, as our team grows, more planning and documentation is necessary. And while we know PF is doable, it is also one of the more ambitious milestones to date. So far the challenge has been to define the high level goals and then derive from them all of the various tasks. These tasks are comprehensive, prioritized and finally assigned to the task’s owner. I’m happy to announce, however, that we’ve recently planned and documented to a level where our team can get to work. PF is already taking form and it’s both exciting and gratifying to see and hear about what we’re achieving each and every week.
Also, here's their standpoint with regard to a zone and the size as relative to Faerthale which is where this quote was taken from.
"We don’t want to put in big zones just for the sake of having big zones—they need to have content to keep them engaging. On the same token having too many pockets of content effectively shrink the zone. This is because the pockets stand out as unique experiences which are much smaller in size in comparison to an entire zone. The association then becomes much smaller in scope and effectively shrinks your zone. On the opposite side of things if zones are too big without enough content they feel like vast wastelands. So the trick is in the balancing. Our zones are technically “big” when looking at it from a pure landmass perspective. But that size is almost irrelevant once you start splitting it into the content pockets."
To touch on that, Faerthale will comprise of these regions. Each of these regions have smaller areas or points of interest...
Redgrove
- Area of interest: The Reul Height/Adytum of Aellos
Faerthale Forest
- Area of interest: The Field of Fallen Stars
- Area of interest: River N'ylem
- Area of interest: The Lake of Morning
The Lucent Tree
The Mountain Aegis and Faerthale City
- Point of interest: Crown of the Anadem Council
- Point of interest: The Eternal Veil
- Point of interest: The Triarc Sun
Soul of Aegis
Lo'Thale
The Floor of Heavens/White Gate
Oldwood
- Area of interest: Fae Hollow
- Area of interest: Crag of the Hag
The Murk
- Area of interest: The Fens of the Tohrn
The Island of the Infinite Storm
Riahuf22 said:People they don't need to do anyrhing, and we are owed nothing, I get it you want reassurance, that what you donated to is making progress and want some evidence of that, but we aren't owed that, when they give us another video that will be because they want to show us the things they have worked on, not because we are owed anything, we did not buy stocks, or invest into their company in anyway, we DONATED money and that's it, so people going casting all this gloom on their topics stop, your doing nothing more than stopping other people that read these topics to NOT want to donate because they see you are unhappy, see how that actually hurting the product you want to succeed from actually suceeding?
eh, I could argue this but this comment (on both sides) has been said so many times on so many other forums its become redundant and just not really worth pointing the arguments from both perspectives. I think most have read "like" comments before and the debate from both sides so I'll stifle myself and move on. As far as stopping other people from not wanting to or are wanting to donate, people are capable of making that decision for themselves. Just as there are many "negative" posts there are "postive" ones. I'd much rather people read both ends of it good and bad, and see where VR currently is at and peoples concerns then a bunch of posts saying "oh boy I can't wait for Pantheon there is nothing wrong this game is perfect and everything they are doing is on par with everything they said. etc etc etc" If I was going to pledge my money I'd want the bad with the good to be able to make a confident decision.
Nice summation @Janus. All the doom and gloom seem totally unwarranted imo. All the tool and asset building being done now will greatly accelerate developement once PF is complete. I personally expect VR to begin hiring more staff once PF is done, and a move in to more testing phases to follow. When will this be? My guess (hope) is before Christmas... But only time will tell. Just my 2cp.
OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:People they don't need to do anyrhing, and we are owed nothing, I get it you want reassurance, that what you donated to is making progress and want some evidence of that, but we aren't owed that, when they give us another video that will be because they want to show us the things they have worked on, not because we are owed anything, we did not buy stocks, or invest into their company in anyway, we DONATED money and that's it, so people going casting all this gloom on their topics stop, your doing nothing more than stopping other people that read these topics to NOT want to donate because they see you are unhappy, see how that actually hurting the product you want to succeed from actually suceeding?
eh, I could argue this but this comment (on both sides) has been said so many times on so many other forums its become redundant and just not really worth pointing the arguments from both perspectives. I think most have read "like" comments before and the debate from both sides so I'll stifle myself and move on. As far as stopping other people from not wanting to or are wanting to donate, people are capable of making that decision for themselves. Just as there are many "negative" posts there are "postive" ones. I'd much rather people read both ends of it good and bad, and see where VR currently is at and peoples concerns then a bunch of posts saying "oh boy I can't wait for Pantheon there is nothing wrong this game is perfect and everything they are doing is on par with everything they said. etc etc etc" If I was going to pledge my money I'd want the bad with the good to be able to make a confident decision.
Or simple dont'tpost negative posts because it hurts the product your supporting, or do you like shotting yourself in the foot?
Well first off I want to be clear, I'm confident Pantheon is doing fine, it will be released, they just need time.
With that said, to those that keep standing on there generosity soap boxes over and over and repeating "we donated we are not owed anything" I have to say
BULL$#!+
That may be what YOU did but I bought in on the Knights Pledge and that pledge offered me "things" and VR is obligated to deliver those "Things" or refund my money. The "things" I'm specifically talking about are two copies of the game and three months paid subscription. For VR to deliver that they NEED too release a game. Now like Landmark it's entirely possible they release a crappie game, keep it online for the three months to fulfill their obligation then shut it down. So really that is all that's in question, will they release a winner or a loser. My contract with them does not require them to release a great or even a good game, just two copies of "a" game named Pantheon and give one of my accounts three months free access. (And a few other things I don't care about)
So I wish people would stop pressuring them to release it before it's ready as I would much prefer they released a Great game.
But this "owe us nothing" is a BS point.
Edit, of my typo edit:
I would like to see them publish and maintain a Gantt Chart here on the web site documenting progress and goals CLEARLY marked that it is simply projected goals and subject to weekly or monthly changes of said goals and progress towards them.
Riahuf22 said:OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:People they don't need to do anyrhing, and we are owed nothing, I get it you want reassurance, that what you donated to is making progress and want some evidence of that, but we aren't owed that, when they give us another video that will be because they want to show us the things they have worked on, not because we are owed anything, we did not buy stocks, or invest into their company in anyway, we DONATED money and that's it, so people going casting all this gloom on their topics stop, your doing nothing more than stopping other people that read these topics to NOT want to donate because they see you are unhappy, see how that actually hurting the product you want to succeed from actually suceeding?
eh, I could argue this but this comment (on both sides) has been said so many times on so many other forums its become redundant and just not really worth pointing the arguments from both perspectives. I think most have read "like" comments before and the debate from both sides so I'll stifle myself and move on. As far as stopping other people from not wanting to or are wanting to donate, people are capable of making that decision for themselves. Just as there are many "negative" posts there are "postive" ones. I'd much rather people read both ends of it good and bad, and see where VR currently is at and peoples concerns then a bunch of posts saying "oh boy I can't wait for Pantheon there is nothing wrong this game is perfect and everything they are doing is on par with everything they said. etc etc etc" If I was going to pledge my money I'd want the bad with the good to be able to make a confident decision.
Or simple dont'tpost negative posts because it hurts the product your supporting, or do you like shot in yourself in the foot?
If someone shares an opinion or concern it's their right to do so. That's what these forum discussions are for. It's a gaint web of feedback that VR can reflect on good and bad. This is EXACTLY why they are put here for, you don't get to argue that I dont get to argue that. If VR simply wanted this to be a 1 way information kiosk then they wouldn't put in the option to make comments. They'd post their news you'd read it and thats that. I could easily say don't read the comments if it's off putting to you, but you pledged money like everyone else, it's your right to do and comment and reply.
It's not shooting yourself in the foot if VR can take the bad and find a way to set minds at ease. No product gets to be made without criticism, it's how you refine and make a better product.
Mathir said: Is Pantheon in trouble? Ask me after they reveal Project Faerthale. After a year of working on a single zone, this sucker better blow my mind. ...
oneADseven said: Here are the details: ... https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2018_june_under_wraps/
OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:People they don't need to do anyrhing, and we are owed nothing, I get it you want reassurance, that what you donated to is making progress and want some evidence of that, but we aren't owed that, when they give us another video that will be because they want to show us the things they have worked on, not because we are owed anything, we did not buy stocks, or invest into their company in anyway, we DONATED money and that's it, so people going casting all this gloom on their topics stop, your doing nothing more than stopping other people that read these topics to NOT want to donate because they see you are unhappy, see how that actually hurting the product you want to succeed from actually suceeding?
eh, I could argue this but this comment (on both sides) has been said so many times on so many other forums its become redundant and just not really worth pointing the arguments from both perspectives. I think most have read "like" comments before and the debate from both sides so I'll stifle myself and move on. As far as stopping other people from not wanting to or are wanting to donate, people are capable of making that decision for themselves. Just as there are many "negative" posts there are "postive" ones. I'd much rather people read both ends of it good and bad, and see where VR currently is at and peoples concerns then a bunch of posts saying "oh boy I can't wait for Pantheon there is nothing wrong this game is perfect and everything they are doing is on par with everything they said. etc etc etc" If I was going to pledge my money I'd want the bad with the good to be able to make a confident decision.
Or simple dont'tpost negative posts because it hurts the product your supporting, or do you like shot in yourself in the foot?
If someone shares an opinion or concern it's their right to do so. That's what these forum discussions are for. It's a gaint web of feedback that VR can reflect on good and bad. This is EXACTLY why they are put here for, you don't get to argue that I dont get to argue that. If VR simply wanted this to be a 1 way information kiosk then they wouldn't put in the option to make comments. They'd post their news you'd read it and thats that. I could easily say don't read the comments if it's off putting to you, but you pledged money like everyone else, it's your right to do and comment and reply.
It's not shooting yourself in the foot if VR can take the bad and find a way to set minds at ease. No product gets to be made without criticism, it's how you refine and make a better product.
If they bend and create some sort of special media package for you to see to put your mind at ease, where does it stop? Everyone would expect that they get the same treatment when they make these threads.
Fact of the matter remains, that VR has stated they are all hands on deck, heads down at their desks plugging away and that there is not anything to report at this time. What more do you want?
OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:People they don't need to do anyrhing, and we are owed nothing, I get it you want reassurance, that what you donated to is making progress and want some evidence of that, but we aren't owed that, when they give us another video that will be because they want to show us the things they have worked on, not because we are owed anything, we did not buy stocks, or invest into their company in anyway, we DONATED money and that's it, so people going casting all this gloom on their topics stop, your doing nothing more than stopping other people that read these topics to NOT want to donate because they see you are unhappy, see how that actually hurting the product you want to succeed from actually suceeding?
eh, I could argue this but this comment (on both sides) has been said so many times on so many other forums its become redundant and just not really worth pointing the arguments from both perspectives. I think most have read "like" comments before and the debate from both sides so I'll stifle myself and move on. As far as stopping other people from not wanting to or are wanting to donate, people are capable of making that decision for themselves. Just as there are many "negative" posts there are "postive" ones. I'd much rather people read both ends of it good and bad, and see where VR currently is at and peoples concerns then a bunch of posts saying "oh boy I can't wait for Pantheon there is nothing wrong this game is perfect and everything they are doing is on par with everything they said. etc etc etc" If I was going to pledge my money I'd want the bad with the good to be able to make a confident decision.
Or simple dont'tpost negative posts because it hurts the product your supporting, or do you like shot in yourself in the foot?
If someone shares an opinion or concern it's their right to do so. That's what these forum discussions are for. It's a gaint web of feedback that VR can reflect on good and bad. This is EXACTLY why they are put here for, you don't get to argue that I dont get to argue that. If VR simply wanted this to be a 1 way information kiosk then they wouldn't put in the option to make comments. They'd post their news you'd read it and thats that. I could easily say don't read the comments if it's off putting to you, but you pledged money like everyone else, it's your right to do and comment and reply.
It's not shooting yourself in the foot if VR can take the bad and find a way to set minds at ease. No product gets to be made without criticism, it's how you refine and make a better product.
Than continue to do so and see how many more people we get by simply reading your posts compared to probably the ones that didn't, now obviously we will never be able to do such a thing but I'm pretty sure your numbers would be smaller than reading post that were more positive.
Zorkon said:Well first off I want to be clear, I'm confident Pantheon is doing fine, it will be released, they just need time.
With that said, to those that keep standing on there generosity soap boxes over and over and repeating "we donated we are not owed anything" I have to say
BULL$#!+
That may be what YOU did but I bought in on the Knights Pledge and that pledge offered me "things" and VR is obligated to deliver those "Things" or refund my money. The "things" I'm specifically talking about are two copies of the game and three months paid subscription. For VR to deliver that they NEED too release a game. Now like Landmark it's entirely possible they release a crappie game, keep it online for the three months to fulfill their obligation then shut it down. So really that is all that's in question, will they release a winner or a loser. My contract with them does not require them to release a great or even a good game, just two copies of "a" game named Pantheon and give one of my accounts three months free access. (And a few other things I don't care about)
So I wish people would stop pressuring them to release it before it's ready as I would much prefer they released a Great game.
But this "owe us nothing" is a BS point.
Edit, of my typo edit:
I would like to see them publish and maintain a Gantt Chart here on the web site documenting progress and goals CLEARLY marked that it is simply projected goals and subject to weekly or monthly changes of said goals and progress towards them.
I would rather they continue working on it, instead of generating useless reports for people that should not really be privy to the information anyways. They "owe you nothing" is actually a very valid point.
Riahuf22 said:OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:People they don't need to do anyrhing, and we are owed nothing, I get it you want reassurance, that what you donated to is making progress and want some evidence of that, but we aren't owed that, when they give us another video that will be because they want to show us the things they have worked on, not because we are owed anything, we did not buy stocks, or invest into their company in anyway, we DONATED money and that's it, so people going casting all this gloom on their topics stop, your doing nothing more than stopping other people that read these topics to NOT want to donate because they see you are unhappy, see how that actually hurting the product you want to succeed from actually suceeding?
eh, I could argue this but this comment (on both sides) has been said so many times on so many other forums its become redundant and just not really worth pointing the arguments from both perspectives. I think most have read "like" comments before and the debate from both sides so I'll stifle myself and move on. As far as stopping other people from not wanting to or are wanting to donate, people are capable of making that decision for themselves. Just as there are many "negative" posts there are "postive" ones. I'd much rather people read both ends of it good and bad, and see where VR currently is at and peoples concerns then a bunch of posts saying "oh boy I can't wait for Pantheon there is nothing wrong this game is perfect and everything they are doing is on par with everything they said. etc etc etc" If I was going to pledge my money I'd want the bad with the good to be able to make a confident decision.
Or simple dont'tpost negative posts because it hurts the product your supporting, or do you like shot in yourself in the foot?
If someone shares an opinion or concern it's their right to do so. That's what these forum discussions are for. It's a gaint web of feedback that VR can reflect on good and bad. This is EXACTLY why they are put here for, you don't get to argue that I dont get to argue that. If VR simply wanted this to be a 1 way information kiosk then they wouldn't put in the option to make comments. They'd post their news you'd read it and thats that. I could easily say don't read the comments if it's off putting to you, but you pledged money like everyone else, it's your right to do and comment and reply.
It's not shooting yourself in the foot if VR can take the bad and find a way to set minds at ease. No product gets to be made without criticism, it's how you refine and make a better product.
Than continue to do so and see how many more people we get by simply reading your posts compared to probably the ones that didn't, now obviously we will never be able to do such a thing but I'm pretty sure your numbers would be smaller than reading post that were more positive.
I don't get the point that you are trying to make. If my "negative" posts are smaller than the positive ones, what are you worried about. If you are going to go off purely the only way people are going to buy this product is off of the forums page then you should have 0 worries about VR getting more crowd funding for their game. VR knows exactly what they are doing and how these forums work. Brad, joppa, Brasse all the devs understand this comes with the territory. It's what most big games (or anticipated) go through. You think these forum posts are negative? I read through a lot and with the minorty of the ones who flat out state this game will never be anything, a majority is just wanting more information. Nothing wrong with that.
You think this is bad go over to the WoW forums where it's just straight toxic with no constructive criticism. Yet all those "doom-sayers" say the same stuff everytime before a patch or expansion and WoW is still what 3.2million subbed? Probably pretty close to that? If you think forums aren't going to have compliments and criticisms, then I stand by my statement of maybe it's easier to just not read them or just stay silent on it? (which rarely helps).
SoE went through the same thing
Blizzard goes through the same thing
I guarentee now Daybreak goes through it.
Ashes of Creation, FFXIV, Elderscrolls, Chronicles of Elyria will/are going through the same thing you see in these forums here.
A game needs to see where both sides sit in order to thrive and make a community happy the best they can.
@Arazons (hopefully I spelled that right) No one is asking for a special package. No one is arguing with what VR stated (or not that i've read). People are asking for an update better then what the newsletter provided. I can list at least a dozen players on these forums that have all agreed they will release Alpha when they are ready but wish they could get an update privy to it. The "radio silence" is whats bugging people not the fact that alpha could be 6 months away.
We all want a great game, we all support it. Voicing a concern or asking a question that you don't think is a priority or reading an opinion you don't agree with, doesn't make that persons opinion any less valid. If Brad or anyone else is tired of the negativity or the negative feedback, I'm sure they will let everyone know. If they didn't understand where people were coming from and the excitement AND the letdown of waiting they wouldn't be in this line of game. Again it all comes with the territory.
OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:OGTomkins said:Riahuf22 said:People they don't need to do anyrhing, and we are owed nothing, I get it you want reassurance, that what you donated to is making progress and want some evidence of that, but we aren't owed that, when they give us another video that will be because they want to show us the things they have worked on, not because we are owed anything, we did not buy stocks, or invest into their company in anyway, we DONATED money and that's it, so people going casting all this gloom on their topics stop, your doing nothing more than stopping other people that read these topics to NOT want to donate because they see you are unhappy, see how that actually hurting the product you want to succeed from actually suceeding?
eh, I could argue this but this comment (on both sides) has been said so many times on so many other forums its become redundant and just not really worth pointing the arguments from both perspectives. I think most have read "like" comments before and the debate from both sides so I'll stifle myself and move on. As far as stopping other people from not wanting to or are wanting to donate, people are capable of making that decision for themselves. Just as there are many "negative" posts there are "postive" ones. I'd much rather people read both ends of it good and bad, and see where VR currently is at and peoples concerns then a bunch of posts saying "oh boy I can't wait for Pantheon there is nothing wrong this game is perfect and everything they are doing is on par with everything they said. etc etc etc" If I was going to pledge my money I'd want the bad with the good to be able to make a confident decision.
Or simple dont'tpost negative posts because it hurts the product your supporting, or do you like shot in yourself in the foot?
If someone shares an opinion or concern it's their right to do so. That's what these forum discussions are for. It's a gaint web of feedback that VR can reflect on good and bad. This is EXACTLY why they are put here for, you don't get to argue that I dont get to argue that. If VR simply wanted this to be a 1 way information kiosk then they wouldn't put in the option to make comments. They'd post their news you'd read it and thats that. I could easily say don't read the comments if it's off putting to you, but you pledged money like everyone else, it's your right to do and comment and reply.
It's not shooting yourself in the foot if VR can take the bad and find a way to set minds at ease. No product gets to be made without criticism, it's how you refine and make a better product.
Than continue to do so and see how many more people we get by simply reading your posts compared to probably the ones that didn't, now obviously we will never be able to do such a thing but I'm pretty sure your numbers would be smaller than reading post that were more positive.
I don't get the point that you are trying to make. If my "negative" posts are smaller than the positive ones, what are you worried about. If you are going to go off purely the only way people are going to buy this product is off of the forums page then you should have 0 worries about VR getting more crowd funding for their game. VR knows exactly what they are doing and how these forums work. Brad, joppa, Brasse all the devs understand this comes with the territory. It's what most big games (or anticipated) go through. You think these forum posts are negative? I read through a lot and with the minorty of the ones who flat out state this game will never be anything, a majority is just wanting more information. Nothing wrong with that.
You think this is bad go over to the WoW forums where it's just straight toxic with no constructive criticism. Yet all those "doom-sayers" say the same stuff everytime before a patch or expansion and WoW is still what 3.2million subbed? Probably pretty close to that? If you think forums aren't going to have compliments and criticisms, then I stand by my statement of maybe it's easier to just not read them or just stay silent on it? (which rarely helps).
SoE went through the same thing
Blizzard goes through the same thing
I guarentee now Daybreak goes through it.
Ashes of Creation, FFXIV, Elderscrolls, Chronicles of Elyria will/are going through the same thing you see in these forums here.
A game needs to see where both sides sit in order to thrive and make a community happy the best they can.
@Arazons (hopefully I spelled that right) No one is asking for a special package. No one is arguing with what VR stated (or not that i've read). People are asking for an update better then what the newsletter provided. I can list at least a dozen players on these forums that have all agreed they will release Alpha when they are ready but wish they could get an update privy to it. The "radio silence" is whats bugging people not the fact that alpha could be 6 months away.
We all want a great game, we all support it. Voicing a concern or asking a question that you don't think is a priority or reading an opinion you don't agree with, doesn't make that persons opinion any less valid. If Brad or anyone else is tired of the negativity or the negative feedback, I'm sure they will let everyone know. If they didn't understand where people were coming from and the excitement AND the letdown of waiting they wouldn't be in this line of game. Again it all comes with the territory.
You spelled it right!
I watched SOE/Daybreak struggle through this with EQN/LM. I remember all the "sky is falling" posts on the forums over there at about the same point in its development cycle. It did no good there and it does no good here either. It literally drives people away either short term or indefinately.
The difference here is that VR != DBG. I trust Brad and company to deliver. It just may not be on a time table I or others would ncessarily like.
You are asking for something special, by saying the last newsletter was not enough and you want more. They have already stated they are working on the game, gave us a rough outline of what theyre working on and continue to do so on a monthly basis. My guess is there is a massive delicate dance going on right now at VR and that they are approaching a critical mass. The calm before the storm if you will.
I suspect due to the tone that some of these posts are getting to on here, that this thread will be locked at some point.
arazons said:Zorkon said:Well first off I want to be clear, I'm confident Pantheon is doing fine, it will be released, they just need time.
With that said, to those that keep standing on there generosity soap boxes over and over and repeating "we donated we are not owed anything" I have to say
BULL$#!+
That may be what YOU did but I bought in on the Knights Pledge and that pledge offered me "things" and VR is obligated to deliver those "Things" or refund my money. The "things" I'm specifically talking about are two copies of the game and three months paid subscription. For VR to deliver that they NEED too release a game. Now like Landmark it's entirely possible they release a crappie game, keep it online for the three months to fulfill their obligation then shut it down. So really that is all that's in question, will they release a winner or a loser. My contract with them does not require them to release a great or even a good game, just two copies of "a" game named Pantheon and give one of my accounts three months free access. (And a few other things I don't care about)
So I wish people would stop pressuring them to release it before it's ready as I would much prefer they released a Great game.
But this "owe us nothing" is a BS point.
Edit, of my typo edit:
I would like to see them publish and maintain a Gantt Chart here on the web site documenting progress and goals CLEARLY marked that it is simply projected goals and subject to weekly or monthly changes of said goals and progress towards them.
I would rather they continue working on it, instead of generating useless reports for people that should not really be privy to the information anyways. They "owe you nothing" is actually a very valid point.
How can you consider "owe you nothing" a valid point when they sold me two copies of a game and three months sub to said game and haven't delivered yet? Yes, they OWE me that.
Now if your meaning they don't owe me the info on the progress in the mean time, then your correct. And I would be fine if the chose not to. Like I said, "I would like to see one" and if it puts people at ease from topics like this I wouldn't consider it "useless"
Zorkon said:arazons said:Zorkon said:Well first off I want to be clear, I'm confident Pantheon is doing fine, it will be released, they just need time.
With that said, to those that keep standing on there generosity soap boxes over and over and repeating "we donated we are not owed anything" I have to say
BULL$#!+
That may be what YOU did but I bought in on the Knights Pledge and that pledge offered me "things" and VR is obligated to deliver those "Things" or refund my money. The "things" I'm specifically talking about are two copies of the game and three months paid subscription. For VR to deliver that they NEED too release a game. Now like Landmark it's entirely possible they release a crappie game, keep it online for the three months to fulfill their obligation then shut it down. So really that is all that's in question, will they release a winner or a loser. My contract with them does not require them to release a great or even a good game, just two copies of "a" game named Pantheon and give one of my accounts three months free access. (And a few other things I don't care about)
So I wish people would stop pressuring them to release it before it's ready as I would much prefer they released a Great game.
But this "owe us nothing" is a BS point.
Edit, of my typo edit:
I would like to see them publish and maintain a Gantt Chart here on the web site documenting progress and goals CLEARLY marked that it is simply projected goals and subject to weekly or monthly changes of said goals and progress towards them.
I would rather they continue working on it, instead of generating useless reports for people that should not really be privy to the information anyways. They "owe you nothing" is actually a very valid point.
How can you consider "owe you nothing" a valid point when they sold me two copies of a game and three months sub to said game and haven't delivered yet? Yes, they OWE me that.
Now if your meaning they don't owe me the info on the progress in the mean time, then your correct. And I would be fine if the chose not to. Like I said, "I would like to see one" and if it puts people at ease from topics like this I wouldn't consider it "useless"
Oh no purely about the progress info. They owe you and everyone else what we've bought into at this point. They just didnt have a release date then and they still dont. So we all bought in knowing that.
It's a double edge sword. Lets say they did that, then you'd have an explosion of posts regarding feature x, y, z on the chart. And why this or that part is not done yet.
You spelled it right!
I watched SOE/Daybreak struggle through this with EQN/LM. I remember all the "sky is falling" posts on the forums over there at about the same point in its development cycle. It did no good there and it does no good here either. The difference is, that VR != DBG. I trust Brad and company to deliver. It just may not be on a time table I or others would like.
You are asking for something special, by saying the last newsletter was not enough and you want more. They have already stated they are working on the game, gave us a rough outline of what theyre working on and continue to do so on a monthly basis. My guess is there is a massive delicate dance going on right now at VR and that they are approaching a critical mass. The calm before the storm if you will.
I suspect due to the tone that some of these posts are getting to on here, that this thread will be locked at some point.
While I'll agree that EQN with George Davidson had a great vision before letting him go and being bought out by Novus Columbus or w/e it is called. I think the sky was falling was because someone had inside news and released in the forums that after Christmas EQN was going bye bye. Yes there was a TON of toxic crap in the Landmark forums, from people that wanted to Voxels to work better without having the knowledge of how they work, but I don't think its nearly as bad over here. Most people are pretty open minded when voicing themselves in here.
Something more for people could also mean Kilsin popping on and making a comment saying hey guys I'm reading the forums I know you're all anxious but just give us a little more time so we can show you something spectacular and why we are being so quiet! I honestly think people just want confirmation from Kilsin more than anything (Nothing against Brasse shes great). The ideas of wanting another stream or 1hr long video, I think a lot of people would understand how much time goes into making that and how that back them up, and while the passion in the posts are there, I think most would settle for a confimation from Kilsin himself.
I hope they don't lock the thread, no one here is being disrespectful that I can see. I think debate is good as long as it kept PG the best you can. I love coming on and reading what people have to say. The passion on both sides should show that even though not everyone sees eye to eye we all really want the same thing.
For the record guys, I'm rooting for VR I really am. But I do understand where a lot are coming from (I've even posted myself) about just wishing we could get something while we wait. Call it an early Christmas present perhaps? =)
arazons said:Oh no purely about the progress info. They owe you and everyone else what we've bought into at this point. They just didnt have a release date then and they still dont. So we all bought in knowing that.
It's a double edge sword. Lets say they did that, then you'd have an explosion of posts regarding feature x, y, z on the chart. And why this or that part is not done yet.
Ahh yes, in that your correct they don't owe me/us progress reports or any other info in the meantime. Just as I don't owe my neighbor a "hello" when I see them, but it can go a long way in community relations.
Your also correct it could be a double edged sword.
Zorkon said:Well first off I want to be clear, I'm confident Pantheon is doing fine, it will be released, they just need time.
With that said, to those that keep standing on there generosity soap boxes over and over and repeating "we donated we are not owed anything" I have to say
BULL$#!+
That may be what YOU did but I bought in on the Knights Pledge and that pledge offered me "things" and VR is obligated to deliver those "Things" or refund my money. The "things" I'm specifically talking about are two copies of the game and three months paid subscription. For VR to deliver that they NEED too release a game. Now like Landmark it's entirely possible they release a crappie game, keep it online for the three months to fulfill their obligation then shut it down. So really that is all that's in question, will they release a winner or a loser. My contract with them does not require them to release a great or even a good game, just two copies of "a" game named Pantheon and give one of my accounts three months free access. (And a few other things I don't care about)
So I wish people would stop pressuring them to release it before it's ready as I would much prefer they released a Great game.
But this "owe us nothing" is a BS point.
Edit, of my typo edit:
I would like to see them publish and maintain a Gantt Chart here on the web site documenting progress and goals CLEARLY marked that it is simply projected goals and subject to weekly or monthly changes of said goals and progress towards them.
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vjek said:Mathir said: Is Pantheon in trouble? Ask me after they reveal Project Faerthale. After a year of working on a single zone, this sucker better blow my mind. ...oneADseven said: Here are the details: ... https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2018_june_under_wraps/
From: Monday, June 11, 2018
To, but not including Friday, September 27, 2019
Result: 1 year, 3 months, 16 days
Just for clarity.
And I'll look into my crystall ball and say given they're 3.5 months past one year of effort on Project Faerthale, that it won't be done this year.
As always, happy to be proven wrong.
It helps to understand that we do not know when they actually began work on Project Faerthale. What you did link is their announcement of the city of Faerthale but it may be that no work was done on it, yet alone the redesign of their mission to Project Faerthale. When they actually began and if all that effort was entirely in PF and not extraneous systems within Alpha is anyone's guess.
However, Project Faerthale includes The actual city but also...
Redgrove
- Area of interest: The Reul Height/Adytum of Aellos
Faerthale Forest
- Area of interest: The Field of Fallen Stars
- Area of interest: River N'ylem
- Area of interest: The Lake of Morning
The Lucent Tree The Mountain Aegis and Faerthale City
- Point of interest: Crown of the Anadem Council
- Point of interest: The Eternal Veil
- Point of interest: The Triarc Sun
Soul of Aegis
Lo'Thale
The Floor of Heavens/White Gate
Oldwood
- Area of interest: Fae Hollow
- Area of interest: Crag of the Hag
The Murk
- Area of interest: The Fens of the Tohrn
The Island of the Infinite Storm
Janus said:It helps to understand that we do not know when they actually began work on Project Faerthale. What you did link is their announcement of the city of Faerthale but it may be that no work was done on it, yet alone the redesign of their mission to Project Faerthale. When they actually began and if all that effort was entirely in PF and not extraneous systems within Alpha is anyone's guess.
I'm not sure if we have been reading the same newsletters. Between 06/2018 - 11/2018 -- "Project Faerthale" was instead called a "Reference Zone" as you can see in that link I provided. The scope of the project was essentially the same as can be seen with this recurring verbiage: "But to put it simply, it means Faerthale will be the first zone to have all of our gameplay systems completely integrated. Or you could say, the first zone where the “Pantheon experience” will be able to be fully experienced."
From 06/2018:
"In other news, we are working on a new zone: Faerthale, the starting city zone of the Lucent, Ember and Ashen Elves. Faerthale rests on the western border of Kingsreach, opposite Thronefast in the East."
"As our Reference Zone, Faerthale needs to have all of the gameplay systems intact and functioning properly, with all of their various parts, so that we have an accurate picture to reference when we begin implementing all of these systems into the rest of our zones. It’s quite exciting, and I can’t wait for our testers to get their hands on it!"
From 08/2018:
"The artists already have a lot of work done for the new zone Faerthale and are adding more assets like models, animations and visual effects. They are also working on zone building and placements."
From 09/2018:
"We’re very excited for Pre-Alpha 4. It’s representative of a “first draft” at a full Pantheon experience with all Classes and a balanced approach to a new zone design."
From 10/2018:
"We are pushing hard to prepare Pre-Alpha 4 and the excitement is palpable as we make the finishing touches on the build that will introduce Faerthale to our playtesters."
"The past month of September the team has continued work on Faerthale, class implementation up to level 40 and several development tools."
From 11/2018:
"Pre-Alpha 4 Begins
The team has been hauling butt on preparing a new zone, new races, harvesting and adding more classes to the game. We are happy to say the efforts have culminated into a solid date for Pre-Alpha 4 where our testers will be able to see an early rendition of Faerthale and try out the newly modeled elf, ogre and halfling races."
From 12/2018:
"For the first time since development started we are bringing together the full Pantheon experience, with all of the systems, animations, models, sounds, and effects one would expect to see in a modern game. With the end of Pre-Alpha 4 coming up in a couple of short weeks, we are happy with the state of Pantheon and it’s time to really flesh out the concepts and systems we have in place. We also aim to add in a few new systems we have talked about but haven’t quite worked into a Pre-Alpha build.
This project, dubbed Project Faerthale, will show Pantheon as it is meant to be experienced."
From 01/2019:
"As discussed last month, Project Faerthale is underway. Now that we are back from holidays we are finalizing our scope for that release and setting some internal goal dates."
Now ... let's rewind a bit, going back to 08/2018:
"PA4 This Fall
PA4 will be available to our pre-alpha testers this fall.
And just how many PA phases are there before alpha? We can’t answer that just yet. The idea, though, is to use PA4 as a reference point, or a reference zone, as Joppa spoke about in June. This means that by PA4 most systems will be in place. The small remainder of systems will be added prior to alpha, but for all intents and purposes, the core Pantheon experience will be available for PA4 and beyond. This means that in PA5 and onward more world building can be done. Systems will continue to be refined but will no longer need to be built. That accelerates things greatly so expect the later PA sessions to come a lot quicker and more regularly than the early Pre-Alphas."
This is where the disconnect lies. As of August 2018, the plan was to have that core experience ready by November of 2018, AKA PA4. That obviously didn't happen. In December, "Faerthale, the Reference Zone" was transformed into "Project Faerthale." Again, though, consider the scope that was shared in June and August of 2018 and compare it to December of 2018. The PA5 that might happen this year is similar in scope to the PA4 that was imagined/envisioned back in August of 2018. We're basically a session behind what was planned (PA5 will be what PA4 was supposed to be), and it's worth noting that a PA5 was planned, and "later PA sessions" were alluded to even beyond that. This inclines me to believe that we'll probably see up to 8 PA sessions before seeing another hiatus prior to Alpha. I have seen several comments suggesting that PA5 is the last intended version of PA. No idea where this stuff comes from but it seems highly unlikely.