If you say numerous intelligent valid counterpoints says nothing. at least contribute some insight cause none atm
As I thought,just full of hot air...
Oooh you were refering to yourself as "numerous intelligent valid counter arguments" looool
I must have missed that one post between the gaming, tabbing in and out. But looks like I didnt miss much
You could trade a haste cloak back and forth as much as you like,the mediator would not take that into calculation for actual value
Mediator NPC would still look at the unbiased value of the item,regardless of a few oddities."you just made a good deal and won some gold on it"
Maybe if 80 procent of the population would start buying it at that price,it might affect unbaised value of the item.
And if it has the AI to detect the transaction has only happened between 2 people it could detect it as price gouging even.
A "sold is sold" system could apply too where you can't buy the exact same item back for x time,maybe a "consider period" where a trade can be reverted
But you never could keep selling/buying same item.If a trade gets reverted within consider period,the item becomes soulbound or can't be sold again for x time.
I think its vital for a healthy player driven economy ,if past games haven't taught how prone they are to all kinds of manipulation.Nothing will;buyer protection is needed.
I don't agree with "everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it" that purchaser might just be easily misled and clueless.So
because one clueless buyer buys it at that price,doesn't mean its worth it.
And probably thats how deceivers like to keep it ,conceiled
and why they would be so against the idea,so all deceiver can go on ruining game economies.
Its not the mediator mechanic that caters to lazy and wilfully ignorant;its the deceivers who want the buyers ignorant and are too lazy for fair competition
so lets find a lazy way to manipulate the system and ruin it for everyone ;their loss our gain..
This is not about handholding,but upholding & maintaining a healthy economy
Ignorance rewards deceivers. "the game doesn't need this hand holding" Keep them all in ignorance so they can be misled :D
The mediator would help sellers too,as they become more sought after when treating the buyers fairly.
Sellers could have 5 unlockable tiers as well . one of them could be the ability to set up shop where they like or increasing their scope and ability to deal with different language & customs.But first they have to earn the tier of respectable merchant
Fluffy said:I don't see it like shaming at all..its just revealing what they are in that case;charlatans & fraudsters.Using deception to deprive other people.
Would you say for a drug dealer "lets not shame him"? or for a pedo?
There is a big difference between shaming an innocent one & revealing a blight on the community.The latter one is to protect it.Don't believe either that it would reinforce belief among players that the current rate is the only acceptable price,as you'd have a whole acceptable price range.
There is enough room to bargain.
And its not like if a seller sells an item once at outrages price they'd immediately be swindler.but if they deliberately do so often.
Chances are the extreme overpriced items would be linked to ingame goldsellers too.So that would be two birds with one blow ,the mediator disposition :D
It doesn't matter how you choose to view it, Shaming is shaming regardless of the persons innocence, and There’s nothing fraudulent or deceitful about someone pricing an item however they want. The value of an item is ultimately what someone is willing to pay for it, it doesn't matter if the last 300 poison tipped daggers sold for 25 gold if I can get you to spend 250 gold for it.
Customer ignorance on “market Value” is not deceit or fraud on the sellers part, its the customers job to know what their buying, and Not the sellers responsibility to educate them.
Disagree. Its just transparancy,not shaming. I think that line of thought is very dangerous too
What would you think if the direction in a school is aware that a teacher beats a younger student,yet decides "lets not tell the parents,
lets cover it up not to shame that teacher here"?
Such lines of thinking do not sit right with me.
Would you say in case of the younger student getting beatings by teacher;the parents are in fault not watching their child enough?
I don't agree that its the customers job to know what they are buying.
Irl part of the job of the seller is to inform the buyer and answer any questions they might have.As a seller you have to provide them
a service and treat the buyer as kings or queens.
Ofcourse there is deceit when a buyer gets misled,by things like price gouging.
And we've witnessed countless times how all these market manipulations get out of hand in these games.
Fluffy said:Disagree. Its just transparancy,not shaming. I think that line of thought is very dangerous too
What would you think if the direction in a school is aware that a teacher beats a younger student,yet decides "lets not tell the parents,
lets cover it up not to shame that teacher here"?
Such lines of thinking do not sit right with me.
Would you say in case of the younger student getting beatings by teacher;the parents are in fault not watching their child enough?I don't agree that its the customers job to know what they are buying.
Irl part of the job of the seller is to inform the buyer and answer any questions they might have.As a seller you have to provide them
a service and treat the buyer as kings or queens.
Ofcourse there is deceit when a buyer gets misled,by things like price gouging.And we've witnessed countless times how all these market manipulations get out of hand in these games.
Your examples are fraudulent and decietful. Your attempting to compare illegal activities to transactions that are completely legal, and its immoral to to abuse emotion in this manor. So please stop comparing activities conducted in a video game to illegal real world crimes.
well ,cornering the market & price gouging is also illegal irl,but "fair" in games.or should we say illegal activities are "fair game" in games.
Could be seen as a big loophole in economic systems in games too.The mediator would fill parts of that hole i believe,as it would contribute to healthier & safer trade dynamics in games too
Now with the climate system, cornering the market might prove more difficult. As it might not be so easy to take control of a region in
any shape or form(+dynamic events and a whole list of other game mechanics) So having a monopoly over a resource and lock out the rest might be prevented
Also that trade NPc would only be one possible NPC with the mediator disposition, diplomatic agents might be another mediator
Maybe "consumer protection" should be taken off the title,as there are other possible NPCs with this disposition
Fluffy, I appreciate the intent you have here, but I think this not only wouldn't work very well but would actually cause more angst and toxicity among players.
I hate what I perceive as greed and price gouging as much as anyone else, but the keyword there is perceive. Just because I think something is priced too high doesn't mean that everyone else agrees with that. People value their time differently and have different perspectives on how much a single unit of currency is worth as well. So the result is that when those people are selling things they've acquired to other players, their prices may vary considerably. This is especially true if something is very rare or new, and they don't really have much in the way of competition or experience to base their pricing decision on.
Most players, when they try to figure out what something is worth, will go look to see who else is selling that thing, and what those people are charging. Then they'll price at what seems like "the going rate", without thinking any more deeply about it. Even in games where they can look at purchase history, many players simply look at what's still up for sale, pick a number somewhere in the middle of what they see, and sell their item for that much. They have no way of knowing whether people will think that's low, high, or just right. They don't know if that list of prices they were looking at is skewed because someone started out really high, or because someone flooded the market yesterday and drove prices down.
You can't prevent this behavior, and you will never get people to agree on a universal value for their time. The value of any item to an individual player will always be subjective. So, accusing other players of being greedy, whether implicitly or explicitly, only serves to breed ill will and incite toxicity among people who are just honestly trying to play the game like everyone else.
Consider this: FFXI (that's eleven, not fourteen) used a blind auction system where buyers literally could not see the prices that people were charging for items. The buyer simply entered a price they were willing to pay, and if someone was selling the item for that price or lower, the buyer got it. Sure, today, if you're playing that game, there's an out-of-game website that tracks the purchase history for every item and lets you see what prices they've been selling for recently, but you still don't get to see who the seller was and you don't get to choose who you buy from. I am not saying that this is what Pantheon should do but consider why that development team would go with that approach? What problems might they have been trying to solve? Why did they feel a need to protect sellers?
It is absolutely true that in market-based MMO economies, market manipulation does happen sometimes, and that RMT actors are behind much of it. But let's be real: The games where it happens have global markets and simplified itemization that make it frightfully easy to do. When one person with a pile of gold has the ability to disrupt the entire global market for an item with a few clicks of their mouse, the problem isn't the person - it's the game and the way its economy was set up.
In games that don't make things quite so simple, market manipulation is *much* harder to do. People still try, of course, and sometimes they might succeed for a very short time, but the results are not nearly so obvious or lasting even when it does work.
So, all that said, while I appreciate the intent of your idea, I think it's the wrong way to solve the problem you're worried about. The right way (really, the only way) is to build the game's economic systems so that they are resistant to intentional manipulation in the first place, and then to allow supply and demand to determine what's a "fair" price, rather than trying to enforce an arbitrary value on items that get bought or sold.
the going rate can be manipulated ,like when the rich players amass so much wealth they can practically buy up the market
Causing enormous inflation & setting a scandalous uniform cost far above the actual value for items,which becomes the misleading "going rate"
The going rate of a bread might then be 500 gold
The mediator would keep everything in check. Preventing such monstrous inflations & preventing the market from being cornered out.
(when the extreme rich players do price gouge & corner the market ,creating a monopoly over certain resource and lock out the rest of the server
population from it;supply & demand does not always determine what's a fair price either perhaps)
So that new players joining the game after several years are aware of the actual value and have to exert the same effort
as the players who played the game at launch to get a bread.
Still a bread might have a price range from 3gold to 20gold depending on if it is special or regular.Value is indeed perceived
but within certain boundaries that are kept in check. Irl a bread would never cost 1000 euro (while with the loopholes in the economic game system these prices often do get out of hand)
there is some kind of understanding in irl society of what the acceptable price range is for a bread(or any other item for the matter).And even after several years that will more
or less stay the same actual value
In the real world:
Have you ever gone to a different town or a different store to buy something because it was cheaper there?
Have you ever looked at the prices people pay for something you use in other parts of the world or even other towns and cities near you, and said to yourself, "that's insane that they pay that much"?
Have you ever moved, and been surprised by the difference in prices from one area to the next?
If you want to fix the problems that you're concerned about in Pantheon's game world, the right way to do it is to start thinking about it as a world - not as a game. You don't need a punitive consumer protection system. You simply need to give consumers choices in where and what to buy. Whether that's a greater variety of things to buy and use, or multiple markets so that it's harder to manipulate prices, or even simply the ability to go without.
Fluffy said:the going rate can be manipulated ,like when the rich players amass so much wealth they can practically buy up the market
Causing enormous inflation & setting a scandalous uniform cost far above the actual value for items,which becomes the misleading "going rate"
The going rate of a bread might then be 500 gold
The mediator would keep everything in check. Preventing such monstrous inflations & preventing the market from being cornered out.
(when the extreme rich players do price gouge & corner the market ,creating a monopoly over certain resource and lock out the rest of the server
population from it;supply & demand does not always determine what's a fair price either perhaps)
So that new players joining the game after several years are aware of the actual value and have to exert the same effort
as the players who played the game at launch to get a bread.
Still a bread might have a price range from 3gold to 20gold depending on if it is special or regular.Value is indeed perceived
but within certain boundaries that are kept in check. Irl a bread would never cost 1000 euro (while with the loopholes in the economic game system these prices often do get out of hand)
there is some kind of understanding in irl society of what the acceptable price range is for a bread(or any other item for the matter).And even after several years that will more
or less stay the same actual value
what keno and vandraad are probably getting at is that although there is a possibility that you might get ripped off ( if you aren't doing your homework) there is potential that you can get a great deal.
they do have an aggressive approach to information delievery so let me try to see if i'm understanding them correctly.
if i was vandraad and i'm trying to increase the value of bread, with your current suggested system. i'd buy the bread at max value, trade the money back to myself then repost the bread at max value again.
this would artifically increase the demand of the bread and the system would try to correct for this.
bread is now 3x the price.
in a player driven economy:
lets say vandraad buys up all the bread from the market. there isn't going to be a meditator to say "bread must sell at this price" so some manufacturer of bread can come in a sell at w.e they think the time a labor is. congrats vandraad just bought bread to resell at a loss.
the benefits of a player driven system is that players by default will keep the economy is check. someone can undercut, someone can then compete.
essentially in a mediator system, those at the top will stay at the top, because they would be able to monopolize goods with expontial capital growth.
i'm think this is what they are getting at (>.O)
Nephele said:If you want to fix the problems that you're concerned about in Pantheon's game world, the right way to do it is to start thinking about it as a world - not as a game. You don't need a punitive consumer protection system. You simply need to give consumers choices in where and what to buy. Whether that's a greater variety of things to buy and use, or multiple markets so that it's harder to manipulate prices, or even simply the ability to go without.
There are ofcourse many other factors, like posssible season specific drops, multiple markets that have differnt values & cultural values for certain items.
In other games drop rate influences value a lot too often.
Merchant license might be required to sell publically ,and the mediator might also have a different role like cultural agent.(although its mainly discussed as their role in trade for the moment)
or as a distributor to make your wears available to other far distant region markets. if you have earned the "respected trader" title.
Which would then allow you to get bids from distant lands.
--
@Stellarmind
Mediators would never say "bread must sell at this price" but rather give an indication based on the actual value of the item.
if it is a reasonable offer,good bargain or expensive, based on certain percentage points above/below actual value.Which also doesn't take away that people could perceive the worth of an item differently... Vandraad would be unable to artificially increase base value of bread.would just be recognized as bread seller at expensive price.Might have consequences in the long run on the carreer as seller if it becomes a trend.Mediators would inform the sellers too & what the rights and obligations are to be able to maintain merchant license.As well as providing nice benefits to respected traders.
Fluffy said:Nephele said:If you want to fix the problems that you're concerned about in Pantheon's game world, the right way to do it is to start thinking about it as a world - not as a game. You don't need a punitive consumer protection system. You simply need to give consumers choices in where and what to buy. Whether that's a greater variety of things to buy and use, or multiple markets so that it's harder to manipulate prices, or even simply the ability to go without.
There are ofcourse many other factors, like posssible season specific drops, multiple markets that have differnt values & cultural values for certain items.
In other games drop rate influences value a lot too often.Merchant license might be required to sell publically ,and the mediator might also have a different role like cultural agent.(although its mainly discussed as their role in trade for the moment)
or as a distributor to make your wears available to other far distant region markets. if you have earned the "respected trader" title.
Which would then allow you to get bids from distant lands.--
Mediators would never say "bread must sell at this price" but rather give an indication based on the actual value of the item.
if it is a reasonable offer,good bargain or expensive, based on certain percentage points above/below actual value. Vandraad would be unable to artificially increase base value of bread.would just be recognized as bread seller at expensive price.Might have consequences in the long run on the carreer as seller if it becomes a trend.Mediators would inform the sellers too & what the rights and obligations are to be able to maintain your merchant license.
that's the thing though. if the mediator acts as a trusted bench mark for what the value of the item is, we will be influenced to purchase it at a higher price because i'd trust the mediator is giving me an honest value, even though from the shadows vandraad is exploiting the actual value of the bread. it's very possible for a union or colition of bread makers to manipulate the mediators price.
now if the mediator is tracking what vandraad is buying and selling... that's a very extensive and probably resource heavy to track what each individual buyer and seller is doing business with. i'd say it's better to let the system eat its own.
stellarmind said:we will be influenced to purchase it at a higher price because i'd trust the mediator is giving me an honest value, even though from the shadows vandraad is exploiting the actual value of the bread. it's very possible for a union or colition of bread makers to manipulate the mediators price.
now if the mediator is tracking what vandraad is buying and selling... that's a very extensive and probably resource heavy to track what each individual buyer and seller is doing business with. i'd say it's better to let the system eat its own.
not if something can be gained from selling lower,like raising the karma meter with honor points.
High honor points would show the character is righteous ,self sacrificing and kind
while low honor shows dishonest ,selfish and even cruel.
Players would be able to go on adventure with any measure of honor but in some cases it might be needed,like for a paladin(high) trade license(high)
or a thief(low) to unlock certain secrets and benefits
I'm not gonna be the judge of whether or not it would be resource heavy to take what players are buying/selling into calculation.How exactly will they manipulate the mediator price if the base value is always the actual value? like if you sell a bread to an NPC it will always be 3g base value. at 1g the mediator would say"good offer", 'reasonable offer" at 5g and expensive at 8+ .The base value of items will never change
Ther might be some other things that influence base value,but it wouldn't be players.More like scarcity during winter or other external factors/circumstances.Which players have no power over
That seem overly complex to try to manage and dictate what a "true price" should be.
In the end, the only true pice is the one people are accepting to pay for instead of getting something themselves. And in an MMO you can get anything with patience and dedication, thus the only "true price" is tied to your own pocket vs your own motivation.
Fluffy said:stellarmind said:we will be influenced to purchase it at a higher price because i'd trust the mediator is giving me an honest value, even though from the shadows vandraad is exploiting the actual value of the bread. it's very possible for a union or colition of bread makers to manipulate the mediators price.
now if the mediator is tracking what vandraad is buying and selling... that's a very extensive and probably resource heavy to track what each individual buyer and seller is doing business with. i'd say it's better to let the system eat its own.
not if something can be gained from selling lower,like raising the karma meter with honor points.
High honor points would show the character is righteous ,self sacrificing and kind
while low honor shows dishonest ,selfish and even cruel.
Players would be able to go on adventure with any measure of honor but in some cases it might be needed,like for a paladin(high) trade license(high)
or a thief(low) to unlock certain secrets and benefitsI'm not gonna be the judge of whether or not it would be resource heavy to take what players are buying/selling into calculation.How exactly will they manipulate the mediator price if the base value is always the actual value? like if you sell a bread to an NPC it will always be 3g base value. at 1g the mediator would say 'reasponable offer" at 5g and expensive at 8+ .The base value of items will never change
Ther might be some things that influence base value,but it wouldn't be player.More like scarcity in winter or other external factors/circumstances.Which players have no power over
if it's outside the players power then why bother making bread to sell? how would the mediator know what the time investment is and how difficult the materials are to acquire? mediator says bread sells for 3gold. let's say it take 3 hours of my time to gather the materials and process it. my time is worth more than 3gold and if other players also agree we sell our bread at 10gold? so is the mediator right or wrong with the actual value of bread?
Mordecai said: Once again.. it’s simply -if a player is willing to pay the price on an item , let them. If not they won’t.- I still haven’t been persuaded to think that an NPC with some sort of disposition should dictate the going rates on an item. I feel it’s purely a lack of a person looking into the in game market, knowing or not knowing going rates, on whether an item is worth x amount of currency.
i mean if someone isn't knee deep the marketplace, auction house, w.e it's called now, it would be difficult to understand it. maybe i've spent too much time looking at stocks and ebay >.>
kind of like if you told the average person it costs 700k to fix the airplane... they'd think that's an insane price. so they google it and it says it should only cost 50k to fix the plane. i mean who are you gonna believe? a guy that works on planes for 20 years or google?
disclaimer i am not a professional on economics or market management. this is personal experience, thoughts and opinions.
Mordecai said: On that note too. If there are set areas for market, who is to say that in one city or region the price on an item is 200p. Go to a different area and the market price is 2000p because said item is from a different area? How would you dictate that? What’s to take a player from region A to travel to region B to get a specific item? A waste of time imo. You want an item buy it. If Not wait. Or gather it yourself.
obviously if 200p then the region can safely and easilly access materials for the bread. if it's 2000p it's probably really far away(travelling actually means something and isolated regional markets) from the easily accessible materials region, it's 100x more dangerous or difficult to procure the raw mats.
did you know a liter of water costs 20 USD in the desert?
stellarmind said:if it's outside the players power then why bother making bread to sell? how would the mediator know what the time investment is and how difficult the materials are to acquire? mediator says bread sells for 3gold. let's say it take 3 hours of my time to gather the materials and process it. my time is worth more than 3gold and if other players also agree we sell our bread at 10gold? so is the mediator right or wrong with the actual value of bread?
drop rate of extra ingredients & its scarcity could be taken into calculation
add surplus value on the base value of bread.Like if a player would make truffle butter garlic bread. Bread might be turned into luxury good.
Which would fall into a higher value tier.3 hours to process bread in a game? that would be something new :D
If you all sell bread at 10 while base/actual value 3 ,the mediator would just recognize the bread being sold very expensively.which would affect your karma meter.
And in the long run,could affect your trade license.
In the end,allowing unrestricted trading just leads to players abusing the system.The trading system needs to gain some impact, consequence
weights for decisions making