I wonder how the game & game economy would be if there was an NPC disposition "mediator"
One of those could be the trader.(or more like some kind of trade protector)
These NPC could know the value of all items & update it every month based on offer/demand
These NPC would know all about fair deal---------expensive ---------- fraud/swindle
Each seller would have a reputation to uphold
Based on offer/demand-actual value and the pricepoints sellers set at that time (50 procent below to actual value;good deal ,70+procent above swindler for example)
they'll get a reputation ranging from trusted seller to swindler.
At any point in time sellers could consult these mediators about fair trade prices/actual value at that point in time.Actual value would be decided by offer/demand for example(and some other things,im no economy expert)
Maybe that would be yet another disposition; the informant,or a combination of mediator/informant
That seems like it would be more difficult than one might think to implement in a way that couldn't easily be gamed by a large enough group of people intending to game the system. Publicly listed prices in the manner of an auction window would serve the same end with far less development needed to make it work correctly.
You have a similar idea system on the TLP servers in Everquest where there is a website a player set up that records all advertised trades in the EC tunnel from player logs, but the problem is it only lists trades that are advertised, has no way to identify which trades actually are completed, and is easily corrupted by people simply advertising outlandish prices for things repeatedly.
the mediator would always base labeling of a trade on the current actual price & based on that would determine if any completed trade is a good bargain - fair deal or swindle.
The mediators would monitor all trade completions.Such a website run by players,sounds like it could be easily corrupted indeed.
But reason the more I think it might be worth the development of the mediator disposition.
One thing I always found interesting in MMO economies was the need people have to maintain the 'going rate'.
Back in EQ there would be times I would see something being offered in trade that might interest me and I would ask the player how much they were selling the item for. When they would respond with a value higher than I would be willing to spend I would kindly say "Sorry that's too much for me." and I'd assume the conversation was over. Yet often times this would spur the individual to try and convince me that this was the 'going rate' and that this item was worth that value simply because that's what it sold for recently. Sometimes they would point me to websites that track the sale of said items to prove to me that the item they were selling was worth said value. I always ended up just telling the player "It might be worth that much to that other person, but it isn't worth that much to me. Good luck finding another person who values it at that price."
And so when I see this thread here telling me how the game developers should include a system to notify me of the 'going rate' of items I just think back to how I disliked feeling pressured into paying a price for an item when it was not worth it to me just because that was the 'going rate' for an item. If everyone always just caved in and paid the going rate, then the going rate would never fluctuate. When people are like me and say, 'Well the going rate is too high for me' that's when you see prices start to drop, and maybe eventually it will go down to a new 'going rate' that I would find reasonable for me, and then I'd happily purchase said item.
Just my thoughts. Yours may vary.
You wouldn't be forced to pay items at the going rate though. The mediator would just take the actual value into account to determine if a deal is a fair deal or swindle.Based on the percentage sellers would sell it below/above and at actual value
Now what would actual value be? base value + supply and demand + value of materials used in the product(might add value in a composed item)
Sellers could still ask more or less than the going rate. Based on the percentage the seller sells it under the actual value ,at the actual value,or above,
the Npc with mediator disposition will be able to label it "fair deal" ,"expensive" or "swindle"
This has no effect on the price you are willing to pay. It affects the sellers reputation especially,not the buyer.For the buyer it is good and an added protection
It would add more flexibility in pricing ,as sellers would have something to gain for selling it both under/above actual value of the moment.
Personally, if were going to go down that road( and im not saying we should), id rather just limit the mark up on what “the system” considers an average going price for an item instead of something that would inevitably cause shaming of those who step outside the fair trade price.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:One thing I always found interesting in MMO economies was the need people have to maintain the 'going rate'.
Back in EQ there would be times I would see something being offered in trade that might interest me and I would ask the player how much they were selling the item for. When they would respond with a value higher than I would be willing to spend I would kindly say "Sorry that's too much for me." and I'd assume the conversation was over. Yet often times this would spur the individual to try and convince me that this was the 'going rate' and that this item was worth that value simply because that's what it sold for recently. Sometimes they would point me to websites that track the sale of said items to prove to me that the item they were selling was worth said value. I always ended up just telling the player "It might be worth that much to that other person, but it isn't worth that much to me. Good luck finding another person who values it at that price."
And so when I see this thread here telling me how the game developers should include a system to notify me of the 'going rate' of items I just think back to how I disliked feeling pressured into paying a price for an item when it was not worth it to me just because that was the 'going rate' for an item. If everyone always just caved in and paid the going rate, then the going rate would never fluctuate. When people are like me and say, 'Well the going rate is too high for me' that's when you see prices start to drop, and maybe eventually it will go down to a new 'going rate' that I would find reasonable for me, and then I'd happily purchase said item.
Just my thoughts. Yours may vary.
I would get that a lot too when buying items. It's just people trying to sell something. I never really felt pressured to buy it, but that is what a good salesman does. They try to make you feel like you need to buy said item. I have heard some pretty good sales pitches over the years. I get a good laugh out of some of them. Sometims they make it seem as if they need to sell the item to put food on the table for their kids.
On the topic at hand, it just sounds like a herculean task to implement. I'm more of a let the economy take care of itself kinda guy. If I have an item that is rare I want to be able to get more than market value for it. I don't want some guy saying well I'm not going to pay that for this because such and such NPC says it's only worth (insert random price here) It's hard to value items becuase they flucuate a lot and different peopl feel different items are worth different amounts. I don't see it like shaming at all..its just revealing what they are in that case;charlatans & fraudsters.Using deception to deprive other people.
Would you say for a drug dealer "lets not shame him"? or for a pedo?
There is a big difference between shaming an innocent one & revealing a blight on the community.The latter one is to protect it.
Don't believe either that it would reinforce belief among players that the current rate is the only acceptable price,as you'd have a whole acceptable price range.
There is enough room to bargain.
And its not like if a seller sells an item once at outrages price they'd immediately be swindler.but if they deliberately do so often.
Chances are the extreme overpriced items would be linked to ingame goldsellers too.So that would be two birds with one blow ,the mediator disposition :D
Why do you think you need an NPC to tell you if something is overpriced or not? Figure it out yourself. If you think you're being charged to much, don't buy it. Do some market research, see who has bought that same item in the past, watch how prices fluctuate over timer. An NPC could never make that determination.
Vandraad said:Why do you think you need an NPC to tell you if something is overpriced or not? Figure it out yourself. If you think you're being charged to much, don't buy it. Do some market research, see who has bought that same item in the past, watch how prices fluctuate over timer. An NPC could never make that determination.
"khajiit has wares, if you have coin"
*clasps paws and rubs them together*
why? To keep business in check.
to provide players with accurate,unbiased information about the items they purchase.
This enables buyers to make best choice and prevents them from being mistreated & misled.
To prevent fraudster's unfair practices from gaining the upperhand over fair competition.
Sellers get known for treating their buyers fairly ,gain good reputation ,become more sought after.
This increases their profitability and competitiveness which also leads to economic growth in the long run.(with quality sellers at the top,not fraudsters)
The Mediator disposition would contribute to the dynamic of the economy
Fluffy said:why? To keep business in check.
to provide players with accurate,unbiased information about the items they purchase.
This enables buyers to make best choice and prevents them from being mistreated & misled.
To prevent fraudster's unfair practices from gaining the upperhand over fair competition.
Sellers get known for treating their buyers fairly ,gain good reputation ,become more sought after.
This increases their profitability and competitiveness which also leads to economic growth in the long run.(with quality sellers at the top,not fraudsters)
The Mediator disposition would contribute to the dynamic of the economy
khajiit offers "fair" prices to buy and sell in these parts.
it would be "unfair" to sell any cheaper. unless...
(a question mark pops above head)
you'd be willing to escort khajiit back into town just a few leagues from here?
~your reward is a 5% discount in future transactions~
Fluffy said:why? To keep business in check.
to provide players with accurate,unbiased information about the items they purchase.
This enables buyers to make best choice and prevents them from being mistreated & misled.
To prevent fraudster's unfair practices from gaining the upperhand over fair competition.
Sellers get known for treating their buyers fairly ,gain good reputation ,become more sought after.
This increases their profitability and competitiveness which also leads to economic growth in the long run.(with quality sellers at the top,not fraudsters)
The Mediator disposition would contribute to the dynamic of the economy
What someone is willing to pay for a given product/service is only pertinent to that person. What I think is a fair price is not what you think is fair.
If some NPC were to be gleaning information from all the sales of every item and put out some stock-ticker type report showing the average sale price over time, that information itself cannot be trusted as players can manipulate the data through false sales. Say I want to sell a sword for 5000pp but that stupid NPC is telling you it's true 'value' is just 4,000pp. All I need to do is 'sell' it to my alt/alts/friends back and forth over time at ever higher amounts to artifically drive up average price...and you would be none the wiser.
Any commodity sold on an open market can have its price manipulated. Some player has a bunch of mid-tier tradeskill materials they harvested and just wants them sold so he/she puts them up for sale a a cost lower than everyone else. I come along, see the lower price and buy it all up and immediately resell it at a higher price. I'm engaging in market PvP and you can do nothing about it. If I had enough money I could, potentially, corner the entire market on a give set of commodities with enough effort. Your NPC market watcher would not help you at all.
see thats why the mediator is needed. to prevent price manipulation.
There are fraudulent activities like price fixing,chill bidding & without the Mediator ,the economy will surely turn into that monopoly where the swindlers at the top control the whole market.
The Npc market watcher would prevent this bias & deception as it keeps it all in check
So the player can't manipulate the data. You could sell that sword all you want between friends.
The Mediator would still provide the unbaised information about the item.
Maybe it would even be possible for the mediator to know to how many different player IDs the item has sold to.So back and forth would be out of the question then.It would have no effect on price at all as the truth is still there for everyone to see thx to the mediator
Without the mediator ,I wouldn't be wiser when you'd engage in "market pvp" buying all the items low price ,selling high
but the mediator would help me there & prevent me from being misled.And would prevent you from gaining the upperhand.
So if you'd plan to corner the market,the mediator would surely be the thorn in your side
I dont think having an NPC tell you fair price range undermines players who play the market,it just keeps them in check.
Cause yes,an item might be worth x amount to some people and y to others.Thats why the mediator would see a large procentage below/above as acceptable.
The mediator holding that power wouldn't take away.It would keep everything in check and protect the buyer
A big power of deceivers is taken away when there is clarity in the system.Thats why they dont like it
Thats why they want to keep everything in the dark,conceiled
So they can continue their merry way misleading& mistreating.
Fluffy said:see thats why the mediator is needed. to prevent price manipulation.
There are fraudulent activities like price fixing,chill bidding & without the Mediator ,the economy will surely turn into that monopoly where the swindlers at the top control the whole market.The Npc market watcher would prevent this bias & deception as it keeps it all in check
So the player can't manipulate the data. You could sell that sword all you want between friends.
The Mediator would still provide the unbaised information about the item.
Maybe it would even be possible for the mediator to know to how many different player IDs the item has sold to.So back and forth would be out of the question then.It would have no effect on price at all as the truth is still there for everyone to see thx to the mediatorWithout the mediator ,I wouldn't be wiser when you'd engage in "market pvp" buying all the items low price ,selling high
but the mediator would help me there & prevent me from being misled.And would prevent you from gaining the upperhand.
So if you'd plan to corner the market,the mediator would surely be the thorn in your side
I dont think having an NPC tell you fair price range undermines players who play the market,it just keeps them in check.
Cause yes,an item might be worth x amount to some people and y to others.Thats why the mediator would see a large procentage below/above as acceptable.
The mediator holding that power wouldn't take away.It would keep everything in check and protect the buyer
A big power of deceivers is taken away when there is clarity in the system.Thats why they dont like it
Thats why they want to keep everything in the dark,conceiled
So they can continue their merry way misleading& mistreating.
with a mediator you lose competitive pricing.
not too many people want to spend time to be a smart consumer, but i understand the desire not to engage in video game consumer pvp.
if you take bdo economy for example. it's very very controlled in the manner you are suggesting.
i believe it's vr intent to have a player driven economy so this probably will not occur >.<
Well I will need to end my part in this discussion by knowing that VR would not put any effort into such a ridiculous idea. How ever much you think that NPC would help you, it would do no such thing. As a long time market manipulator across various games (EQ1, EQ2, EVE Online (which has incredible data about market transactions and I still made hundreds of billions of ISK)) I know that even with perfect information, manipulation will still happen. If you don't want to buy something at X price and the only items out there are at X+something, well, sucks to be you because you'll be doing without...or you go get it yourself.
Lets now flip this around. You've got an item that you want to sell and that NPC says "the value of this item is 1,000pp" yet you see a dozen on the market all at 3,000pp and market history shows that the last time this item sold for 1,000pp was a year ago and has been trending upwards ever since. Are you going to sell it for 1,000pp because the NPC gave you that price? No..you're going to sell it for something slightly under 3,000pp. Unless you are stupid and do sell it for 1,000pp only see it immediatley remarketed for 3,000pp.
This is awful for numerous reasons. Tracking every single trade is itself ridiculous for multiple reasons. People could easily game the system by repeating certain over/underbalanced transactions. "hey bro, I wanna sell my haste cloak next week, let's trade it back and forth for 10x its worth 1000 times before the next mediator prices come out".
Then there's the resources required to do all of this. They'd need additional service and database layers, all the testing and additional physical cpu/io/ram/network resources to support all of this in a game that hinges on being performant. Even with caching layers and batching, you want to minimize calls that go to the database, they are the most expensive. But especially, you want to eliminate calls that are unnecessary. And this idea is totally unnecessary.
On top of that, what a great way to ruin what makes economies great. A person who buys low and sells high as their way of playing the game now gets a "bad reputation"? Good grief. Remember that guy in EQ who never made it beyond level 27 because all he'd do was hang out and trade all day and had enough cash for full rubicite, ykeshas and a haste belt? That's fantastic, good for him! But now he's a swindler? Get outta here.
Everything is worth what it's purchaser will pay for it. If you get swindled, maybe you should have paid more attention to the market. There's risk in all things. The game doesn't need this hand holding mechanic that punishes people for playing the market while rewarding ignorance.
Additionally, why is the buyer the sole party that requires protection? As if people have never been duped into selling something for half its worth because they didn't know better?
Besides, if they go the AH route, just look and see what things are selling for. Hey, guess what, the price of consumes goes up the day that the 3 big guilds do their raiding. A person who notices that is rewarded. This mediator mechanic caters to the lazy and wilfully ignorant.
stellarmind said:
i believe it's vr intent to have a player driven economy so this probably will not occur >.<
It would just be a player driven economy with a mediator :D
For once in games it might not be the market that gets cornered ,but the deceivers :D
Promoting amicable trading practices
And when an item gets cornered,the mediator might appoint an outside party that is able to supply the cornered resource to the deprived party by other means :D
Bye bye to manipulators having monopoly over a resource :D Bye bye price guaging
A mediator NPC would always put a spanner in the work of market manipulation at every turn xD
I can see why some are not a fan of the idea.
But I simply love it xDD
Oh ye and the ID would not be revealed publically ,it would just help the mediator to detect attempts at price gauging ..Not that it might be needed if the mediator has an unbiased database knowledge to determine if a price is reasonable .Then let a few friends buy the sword from each other,it wouldn't affect the value.. the mediator would just say'my you got some money for that sword,you have a good friend" :D
We could turn it the other way around too yes.When buyers make scandalous low offers often they might be called skinflints eventually
Fluffy said:stellarmind said:
i believe it's vr intent to have a player driven economy so this probably will not occur >.<
It would just be a player driven economy with a mediator :D
For once in games it might not be the market that gets cornered ,but the deceivers :D
Promoting amicable trading practices
And when an item gets cornered,the mediator might appoint an outside party that is able to supply the cornered resource to the deprived party by other means :D
Bye bye to manipulators having monopoly over a resource :D Bye bye price guaging
A mediator NPC would always put a spanner in the work of market manipulation at every turn xD
I can see why some are not a fan of the idea.
But I simply love it xDDOh ye and the ID would not be revealed publically ,it would just help the mediator to detect attempts at price gauging ..Not that it might be needed if the mediator has an unbiased database knowledge to determine if a price is reasonable .Then let a few friends buy the sword from each other,it wouldn't affect the value.. the mediator would just say'my you got some money for that sword,you have a good friend" :D
We could turn it the other way around too yes.When buyers make scandalous low offers often they might be called skinflints eventually
aka, you've made tons of poor decisions with your video game money and want your agenda catered to, despite vast negative effects on the rest of the game.
Just dont see consumer protection as negative effect on rest of game
And you would be surprised.I get items all myself as I think the prices they ask are rarely worth it in other games. Maybe cause price manipulation is all fair game in other games (and thats the reason why its often such a mess with things being insanely priced).But Vandraad was right in one thing;if its not worth the price to you,get the item yourself
Which i thus always do :D But it could be different ..
Fluffy said:Just dont see consumer protection as negative effect on rest of game
Multiple people just explained to you in detail how it would have a negative effect on the game. You can address those comments and explain why you think your system would still be a net positive, or I guess you can pretend the numerous intelligent valid counter arguments don't exist.
There's a sucker at every card table. If you don't know who it is, it's you.