The are a few problems with the standard economy that has persisted in MMO’s since their incarnation, and the biggest one, is lack of it, That being careful management of available resources.
So what do we see in nearly every MMO, Infinite money in, and Money sinks that have yet to work to “Carefully manage available resources”, because its a system doomed from the start. There can’t be infinite money in, and expect anything but massive inflation.
So I suggest; introducing a couple new ideas.
1. NPC mobs that drop money, do so from their NPC cash pool or Bank. This Bank being feed using the Fees collected throughout the Gameworld, instead of these fees dropping off into the abyss, the Fees are what supplies the money for coins drops by bandits, marauders, and orcs ect..
2. Capping the total supply of money (Raise or lower as needed by the devs)
(Below are arbitrary numbers just for the sake of discussion, Dev's don't release a lot of info on this stuff, and id like to point out I'm not suggesting a cap of money based on level, it just stands to reason that your more likely to have greater funds at higher levels)
For example, lets say a server has the capacity for a population of 5000 with a level cap of 60 And lets assume the total circulation of coin was evenly distributed,(It Wont be, but we need an average to start with) assuming 5000 gold coins per player would bring the total circulation supply to 25,000,000 gold Coins.
Now we know the economy wont be evenly distributed, so lets assume it looks more like below.
1000 players each level group.
Economic holdings for,
(3 percent) Levels 1-12 with average player having 750 Gold
(7 percent)Levels 13-24 with average player having 1,750 Gold
(10 percent)Levels 25-36 with average player having 2,500 Gold
(20 percent)levels 37- 48 with average player having 5,000 Gold
(60 percent)Levels 49-60 with average player having 15,000 Gold
Capping the total supply in my opinion is the way to go, now some will try to horde money, and thats fine, Along with normal fees that collect coin, exponential monthly bank fees for inactively or for excessive funds should take care of that.
For example inactivity fees,
you might incur a 3% fee on your Banked coin after 3 months inactivity,
5% at 4 months and so on until you only had the money in your pocket.
Taxing the hoarders, so in this example the expected coin on the average player at level 60 would be 15,000 gold. Now lets say your a Hoarder or just the best crafter on the whole server, and your exceeding something like 3,000,000 gold coins which would be 20% of the top expected total supply.
This would introduce you to holding fees.
Now lets say the fist Stage of Holding fees starts 3,000,000 (collectively in all banks on the account)
A 5% Holding Tax would cost you 150,000 gold Coins to feed the NPC Bank, and it would become exponentially more difficult to hoard money.
Now, again the numbers here are for demonstration purposely only, I'm sure if such a system was used the Devs would tweak it to their liking, and to keep the limited supply in circulation.
Or just do away with money (coin) completely.
Set it up as a complely bartered system.
Nobody is going to want to keep tons of garbage items around, so they will uptrade a number of lower junk items, for fewer better ones (and so on).
Eventually, your "wealth" would be determined by your gear and/or prized posessions.
The market would be driven by what is needed, versus what costs the most.
The problem with a barter system is no one is going to want the multiple junk items to trade for the good item.
Not to mention keeping track of the value of every item relative to the value of every other item.
There's nothing inherently wrong with coin inflation in a game. The goal should be just to not constantly dump in new currency so fast that no one can keep up with the inflation.
Chanus said:The problem with a barter system is no one is going to want the multiple junk items to trade for the good item.
Not to mention keeping track of the value of every item relative to the value of every other item.
There's nothing inherently wrong with coin inflation in a game. The goal should be just to not constantly dump in new currency so fast that no one can keep up with the inflation.
this is a pvp stick up! *puts a wand do chanusan back* gimme all your trash loot, potions and uhhh... that shiny glowing thing right there any nobody gets cc'd thinking coins exist!
gold cap isn't a bad idea actually.
even games like bdo that have high taxation, heavily controlled economy and money sinks still struggle with inflation.
i wouldn't do gold cap per level though.
maybe something like a central banking area where you get loot(mobs don't drop money), you turn in stuff for the money.
lets just go with goblin caps.
the normal exchange rate would be 1 gold per cap, with the central bank only accepting 100 for the day. now you can adjust price per loot or reduce are increase the acceptance depending on how much money is in circulation.
you would still have money sinks and taxing though.
hm im not sure if im making sense >.>
Chanus said:To the OP: capping the incoming supply makes it too easy to vacuum up all the supply and deny other players the ability to earn any coin at all.
That was addressed under taxing the hoarders
@stellarmind
Right, I wasn’t suggesting level based cap. I mentioned that in the post, I went ahead and highlighted it since it was missed.
HemlockReaper said:Chanus said:To the OP: capping the incoming supply makes it too easy to vacuum up all the supply and deny other players the ability to earn any coin at all.
That was addressed under taxing the hoarders
@stellarmind
Right, I wasn’t suggesting level based cap. I mentioned that in the post, I went ahead and highlighted it since it was missed.
ah i got it now.
i would go with an exchange of trash loot(no mobs drop money) for gold then with a limit to how much trash loot npcs will buy.
now that i think abuot it, it opens some compelling things. grinding for money.... interesting yea i like this.
i wouldn't tax hoarders. i'm not sure yet, but it would be good to give those with lots of cash an incentive to recirculate the money. something with life skills?
are you including item or currency degradation?
@OP
Thank you for making a thread on this after I read through the ‘permanent item damage’ thread. It is important for discussion. You have some great ideas. Stellar also had some great ideas regarding a controlled market. I mentioned there being a weekly or monthly banker/city guard fee that scales to amount of stored coin in said bank. Outrageous amount of coin (that has potential for exploitation and/or mega RMT) is scaled to large fees.
Perhaps some combination of ideas. Nonetheless, there had better be a system in place that addresses market exploitation and RMT. As much as I would like the contrary, I am not saying eliminate the problem. I am saying address the problem. I think that is to be expected. I enjoy reading various ideas on this as it is very important.
Kalok said:They mentioned in one of the Developer Round Table recordings on Youtube that they have been working with an economist on the Pantheon economy and how to set it up correctly.
That’s definitely good, but market exploitation and RMT certainly need to be in mind when implementing the system.
Bonechip said:Or just do away with money (coin) completely.
Set it up as a complely bartered system.
Nobody is going to want to keep tons of garbage items around, so they will uptrade a number of lower junk items, for fewer better ones (and so on).
Eventually, your "wealth" would be determined by your gear and/or prized posessions.
The market would be driven by what is needed, versus what costs the most.
Money is a barter system, though. Coins, cash, bitcoin, precious metals - all desired and used as a standard currency in lieu of stuff. If you're a chicken farmer but you're wanting to trade with someone who doesn't want to take chickens as a trade, you use money (currency) instead. It's a more universal bartering item.
Wealth is determined by a lot of things, not just things. I'm glad VR has an economic consultant. Currency, imo, is something that's needed in this type of game and it's good to hear that they're wanting to set it up and keep it running properly.
Syrif said:Kalok said:They mentioned in one of the Developer Round Table recordings on Youtube that they have been working with an economist on the Pantheon economy and how to set it up correctly.
That’s definitely good, but market exploitation and RMT certainly need to be in mind when implementing the system.
Given that the development team has extensive MMO experience, I would be rather surprised if they weren't taking that stuff into account, plus much more.
HemlockReaper said:Chanus said:To the OP: capping the incoming supply makes it too easy to vacuum up all the supply and deny other players the ability to earn any coin at all.
That was addressed under taxing the hoarders
I think you underestimate what some people are willing to do just to be griefers.
I've seen a few discussions about this on Reddit in the past few months. It seems like most people agree that pure barter would be inconvenient. (it's no wonder most countries have moved from barter, to coin, to paper, to debit/credit)
I think, though, you could remove a ton of currency and move coin, in-game, into the realm of rare, if you wanted to.
First step, though, is to have it so mobs don't drop coin. That alone? Not a design goal. At least, not a public one since the kickstarter to today.
Heck, the last time I asked Brad about it on these forums, he wouldn't deny mobs will drop currency and immediately equippable items (as in, kill it, it drops, you put it on instantly) directly.
So.. unfortunately, as long as that is true? The economy is guaranteed to be a snafubar before day 1. It's historically and logically provable, trivially.
Personally, I have read and support many great ideas to remove coin from game loops. I think moving to barter for many systems is a great idea. Yet, there has never been even a hint that the VR devs, for Pantheon, are considering this as part of their design. And if they have an economist, as they claim, so far, that individual has produced nothing public, nor affected their public stance on these issues since 2016.
I mean, I get it, they're busy. I also understand they're nowhere near persistence, and as a result, persistent issues are not their primary focus right now. Yet.. it's a big freaking deal.
If they claim to walk the path of economic integrity, they need to actually take some steps. :)
HemlockReaper said:1. NPC mobs that drop money, do so from....
First and foremost, only sentient, societal NPCs should be using any form of currency. Animals, etc should not ever drop coin.
One way to lower, but not eliminate this alleged isue of infinite money entering the economy is to not have NPCs drop player usable money, rather they should be using their own forms of currency which players then need to exchange at a bank. Depending upon several factors (your faction with the city in which the bank resides; the faction between the NPC you killed and the city; how much of said currency has been exhanged in a given period of time) affects the amount of player usable coin you actually get. It is this exchange rate that the developers, specifically the economist they need to have on staff) that can be actively adjusted.
One thing that could also help remove money from the economy is having sentient, societal NPCs take a portion of our coin when they kill us. We loot their coin, they should loot ours. Not items, nothing in bags or in bas inventory..just coin. They then auto-convert that coin into their own currency, also at some exchange rate, such that killing the mob to get your money back nets a loss.
I talk about this here, http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/10855/permanent-item-damage/view/page/1
Aich said:I talk about this here, http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/10855/permanent-item-damage/view/page/1
That thread isnt focused on an in game economy, and to be honest that thread is all over the place
Vandraad said:HemlockReaper said:1. NPC mobs that drop money, do so from....
First and foremost, only sentient, societal NPCs should be using any form of currency. Animals, etc should not ever drop coin.
One way to lower, but not eliminate this alleged isue of infinite money entering the economy is to not have NPCs drop player usable money, rather they should be using their own forms of currency which players then need to exchange at a bank. Depending upon several factors (your faction with the city in which the bank resides; the faction between the NPC you killed and the city; how much of said currency has been exhanged in a given period of time) affects the amount of player usable coin you actually get. It is this exchange rate that the developers, specifically the economist they need to have on staff) that can be actively adjusted.
One thing that could also help remove money from the economy is having sentient, societal NPCs take a portion of our coin when they kill us. We loot their coin, they should loot ours. Not items, nothing in bags or in bas inventory..just coin. They then auto-convert that coin into their own currency, also at some exchange rate, such that killing the mob to get your money back nets a loss.
Yes i Agree only certian enemies need to drop money, not animals
I could see them developing ways to increase/reduce the monetary supply on a macro and micro economic level based on faction at first and - say if humans ( like elves in some other game*ahem*) are most popular, it stands to reason ther esill be more gold/plat being put into the economy from newbies selling in those areas, so the merchants could be tweaked to offer less coin for bat fur in humanville than in the lesser populated Ogre newbie city. The economist can track all the bat fur being sold etc.
The ogre, coming to Humanville and seeing all the bat fur will get gold signs in his eyes and load up the bat fur to sell back in Ogre town- he will get rich- in Ogre town yet be considered poor in humanville (for who needs batfur in humanville?) but it will be short lived as he may balance the comparable cost of bat fur between ogretown and humanville by doing so.
Manouk said:I could see them developing ways to increase/reduce the monetary supply on a macro and micro economic level based on faction at first and - say if humans ( like elves in some other game*ahem*) are most popular, it stands to reason ther esill be more gold/plat being put into the economy from newbies selling in those areas, so the merchants could be tweaked to offer less coin for bat fur in humanville than in the lesser populated Ogre newbie city. The economist can track all the bat fur being sold etc.
The ogre, coming to Humanville and seeing all the bat fur will get gold signs in his eyes and load up the bat fur to sell back in Ogre town- he will get rich- in Ogre town yet be considered poor in humanville (for who needs batfur in humanville?) but it will be short lived as he may balance the comparable cost of bat fur between ogretown and humanville by doing so.
That is called 'Supply and Demand'. As supply goes up, prices go down. As supply goes down, prices go up. This works for buy as well as sell. Trying to sell batwings to a vendor in an area filled with millions of bats? Vendor is going to pay a pittance. But sell to a vendor where bats do not exist? Vendor pays more..but as you sell more they buy for less.
This has been brought up for years..I know as I keep bringing it up everytime someone starts a conversation about the #%&@ game economy.
HemlockReaper said:Yes i Agree only certian enemies need to drop money, not animals
You can take this further by instituting racial currencies and using the currency of one race in the cities/territories of another race requires exchange rates and fees. Thus a human with his human gold coin is adventuring near an elven village. He goes to buy something but the vendor doesn't like to accept HGP (human gold pieces). So the item he wants to buy for 10EGP (elven gold pieces) instead costs him 15 HGP. The adventurer thinks about it and given he won't be in the area very long, chooses to spend 15 HGP. But if the adventuer was going to be in the area for some time, he could go to the local bank and exhange his HGP for EGP..for a fee. That day the exchange rate is 1.14:1 1.14HGP gets you 1EGP.
That can become quite complicated having 12 different currencies given how easily players can move from one racial territory to another, but it does work well taking money out of the economy through exchanges always resulting in some degree of loss. You never get more money back then you give in an exchange.
The easier solution is to have race and faction play a much greater roll which cannot be wholly offset by player activity when you have a single global currency. You should always pay more for things in areas not of your own race even if those other races really like you. A Human in Thronefast buying A Large Ale from a human vendor will pay much less than if he were in Wild's End or Skargol. And this doesn't even take into acccount supply and demand.
Vandraad said:Manouk said:I could see them developing ways to increase/reduce the monetary supply on a macro and micro economic level based on faction at first and - say if humans ( like elves in some other game*ahem*) are most popular, it stands to reason ther esill be more gold/plat being put into the economy from newbies selling in those areas, so the merchants could be tweaked to offer less coin for bat fur in humanville than in the lesser populated Ogre newbie city. The economist can track all the bat fur being sold etc.
The ogre, coming to Humanville and seeing all the bat fur will get gold signs in his eyes and load up the bat fur to sell back in Ogre town- he will get rich- in Ogre town yet be considered poor in humanville (for who needs batfur in humanville?) but it will be short lived as he may balance the comparable cost of bat fur between ogretown and humanville by doing so.
That is called 'Supply and Demand'. As supply goes up, prices go down. As supply goes down, prices go up. This works for buy as well as sell. Trying to sell batwings to a vendor in an area filled with millions of bats? Vendor is going to pay a pittance. But sell to a vendor where bats do not exist? Vendor pays more..but as you sell more they buy for less.
This has been brought up for years..I know as I keep bringing it up everytime someone starts a conversation about the #%&@ game economy.
HemlockReaper said:Yes i Agree only certian enemies need to drop money, not animals
You can take this further by instituting racial currencies and using the currency of one race in the cities/territories of another race requires exchange rates and fees. Thus a human with his human gold coin is adventuring near an elven village. He goes to buy something but the vendor doesn't like to accept HGP (human gold pieces). So the item he wants to buy for 10EGP (elven gold pieces) instead costs him 15 HGP. The adventurer thinks about it and given he won't be in the area very long, chooses to spend 15 HGP. But if the adventuer was going to be in the area for some time, he could go to the local bank and exhange his HGP for EGP..for a fee. That day the exchange rate is 1.14:1 1.14HGP gets you 1EGP.
That can become quite complicated having 12 different currencies given how easily players can move from one racial territory to another, but it does work well taking money out of the economy through exchanges always resulting in some degree of loss. You never get more money back then you give in an exchange.
The easier solution is to have race and faction play a much greater roll which cannot be wholly offset by player activity when you have a single global currency. You should always pay more for things in areas not of your own race even if those other races really like you. A Human in Thronefast buying A Large Ale from a human vendor will pay much less than if he were in Wild's End or Skargol. And this doesn't even take into acccount supply and demand.
I Think having local banks could play another role here, Apart from limiting how much gold you can carry, there can be fees to transfer funds to another bank, presumably by wagon and more for a speedy delivery though magic or whatever.
In the words of Aich I have a genius idea ... wait for it ... VR should implement bards as a massive coin sink. We are a thirsty lot, please buy us several expensive libations next time you swing through the pub. We also accept coins while performing... consider it a donation to the feathered cap fund.
In all seriousness, if I save (not hoard! Dragons hoard, not bards) enough coin to hit the “tax the rich” threshold I am moving all my assets to an undisclosed offshore haven. Penalizing people for success is never as productive as rewarding them for being generous of their own choice. And why have inactive bank accounts slowly evaporate? The money has already left the economy. If someone has to take time off for surgery, or to care for an ailing child (or parent), you would also have them suffer a loss of fortune in a game they love but can’t play for a few months? No thank you.
Kumu said:In the words of Aich I have a genius idea ... wait for it ... VR should implement bards as a massive coin sink. We are a thirsty lot, please buy us several expensive libations next time you swing through the pub. We also accept coins while performing... consider it a donation to the feathered cap fund.
In all seriousness, if I save (not hoard! Dragons hoard, not bards) enough coin to hit the “tax the rich” threshold I am moving all my assets to an undisclosed offshore haven. Penalizing people for success is never as productive as rewarding them for being generous of their own choice. And why have inactive bank accounts slowly evaporate? The money has already left the economy. If someone has to take time off for surgery, or to care for an ailing child (or parent), you would also have them suffer a loss of fortune in a game they love but can’t play for a few months? No thank you.
To be honest if you have reached a point to be taxed for being rich, do you really need the money?
Secondly, while traditionally in MMO’s you may be able to see that 3000 gold staring at you in the bank, its consistently loosing value as the inflation goes up, so while you may get taxed for being rich, your gold retains its value when currency isn't just dumped into the system with each kill.
Concerning the inactivity, perhaps it may be better to fill the gap of lost treasury with an infusion periodically as accounts go inactive, and have fluctuating fees that could help drain a sudden emergence of old accounts to balance things back out.