Solo Content Philosophy

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maergoth
- 5 posts
July 4, 2019 12:55 PM PDT

This horse has been beaten dead, but it's one of the few topics that needs to be beaten further. Just had an incredible amount of backlash when making this point on the Ashes of Creation feedback thread over there, and my faith in their development is pretty shook over it.

You should not develop solo content at all. None. Zero.

As people level up:
Your group content should become solo content.
Your raid content should become group content.

You should never be able to solo raid content for rewards. You should never be able to raid solo content for rewards.

Those are your targets.

Here's the thing I feel many developers have lost sight of. Your game is an MMO. It's meant to be played with others. If someone isn't grouping, you've failed to engage them in some way. Period. Developing solo content is an admission of failure to integrate solo players into group play. Having over leveled group content be solo content does not require additional development or fragment your player base (see: EQ2. THOUSANDS of Man hours dedicated to solo quests and silly, pointless garbage.)

People like to say "Oh but I'm a solo player, or I enjoy solo play, or I prefer solo play." but they do so for a reason. All are avoidable reasons, from a development standpoint.

1. They don't feel comfortably good at the game

(Include proper training tools for players both trying to find a group and trying to find members. See: World of Warcraft's class training to use group finder. Getting bad players is just as bad as being a bad player. And we're talking.. Really bad. )

2. They don't have much time to commit

(Ducking out of a dungeon part way through should not be demonized. If you design content well, people should be able to seemlessly get involved. Even if the instanced content is something Pantheon intends to pursue heavily. Filling that gap in the group roster should be as easy as possible.)

3. They're not socially inclined to interaction

(It has come up before that even the most introverted people wouldn't mind group play if their party were NPCs. The ability to engage with a group anonymously, avoid chat entirely, and simply follow some intuitive basic instructions would allow for a soft entry into group content for people who are terrified of other people. A rudimentary waypoint, ping and command system for group leaders would be great even for regular group and raid play.)

4. They can't find a group due to lack of tools to do so

(See above commentary on group finder stuff. Eq1 had a lot of "camp checking" and I like the fluidity of having unofficial places for groups to gravitate, but such an organic system doesn't lend to getting people involved. Designing little pockets where groups are intended to pull to and naming those places might make it easier for people to see what is going on where, and avoid the faults of operating in open dungeon. A group finder of some kind (zone wide, regional) would not hurt your game, as demonized as it tends to be.)

5. The rewards for group play are insufficient

(Don't be scared to reward people for tackling harder creatures. There should absolutely be a significant power disparity between someone who only solos and those who group, and between those who group and those who raid. It doesn't have to be fair. Realistically, the only thing that should be worth soloing for is money. Making that money available to spend on gear from group and raid play will provide people the ability to bridge the gap in gear, even if they've somehow fallen behind.)

Those apply in some degree to raid content as well. Generally speaking, I'm not concerned about Pantheon's ability to create or balance raid content. Just know that it is, in fact, the carrot that people should chase. Something to strive for, inspiring them to get better at the game. Those are the heroes of your land, make them feel like it.

It's a long post, but I hope it isn't too painful. There aren't many people on the planet who have MMO'd as hard as I have, and there seem to be some fundamentals that have been lost in time. I hope Pantheon manages to avoid those pitfalls and delivers a seamless experience across all playstyles, instead of committing time to fragmenting their base between solo, group, and raid content.
Vandraad
- 2419 posts
July 4, 2019 12:57 PM PDT

maergoth said: This horse has been beaten dead, but it's one of the few topics that needs to be beaten further.

Actually, no it doesn't.
maergoth
- 5 posts
July 4, 2019 12:57 PM PDT

Note, there is a significant difference between having solo content by way of out leveled group content, and dedicating design hours into creating content specifically to be solo'd.

Preventing soloing should not be the intent.
Allowing soloing is just fine.
Encouraging soloing is a failure of MMO development.
maergoth
- 5 posts
July 4, 2019 1:00 PM PDT

Vandraad said:

maergoth said: This horse has been beaten dead, but it's one of the few topics that needs to be beaten further.

Actually, no it doesn't.

It actually does, because there have somehow become anti solo and pro solo camps, with zero consideration for the reality of the situation: that group content and solo content should be the same thing, just at different levels.
Aich
- 1095 posts
July 4, 2019 1:12 PM PDT

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8367/solo

Search function? ;)

http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1546/solo-play

http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1937/not-all-classes-should-be-able-to-solo

http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2967/solo-content

http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6052/solo-gameplay

http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7819/solo-ability

http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1566/should-you-be-able-to-solo-group-quests

From the FAQ:

1.4 Will you be able to solo in Pantheon?

Yes. While most content will be designed for groups, there will typically also be content that is soloable. Some classes may solo better than other classes.

This post was edited by Aich at July 4, 2019 4:48 PM PDT
maergoth
- 5 posts
July 4, 2019 1:45 PM PDT

Yep. Lots of posts. I wasn't asking a question, if that's what you were interpreting it as. Sorry if that wasn't obvious.

This post has nothing to do with whether you can solo or not.

This post was edited by maergoth at July 4, 2019 1:47 PM PDT
Aich
- 1095 posts
July 4, 2019 1:57 PM PDT

maergoth said:

Yep. Lots of posts. I wasn't asking a question, if that's what you were interpreting it as. Sorry if that wasn't obvious.

This post has nothing to do with whether you can solo or not.

Maybe you never played EQ but what you said, you will out level content and be able to go back and kill it solo so this is already in the game by design reguarding levels and as people become more powerful. One of the fun things to do si go back and farm lower level areas for gear for alts. Group content will become soloable and if any bosses don;t have some sort number of groups members requirment check you can kill them also.
bigdogchris
- 1281 posts
July 4, 2019 3:15 PM PDT

I define soloing as, off the top of my head, "Making meaningful progression, without the help of others, by defeating enemies and completing quest that are designed specifically for your level range". That definition means a level 40 can go kill a mob designed for level 30 player group, and technically solo it, but is that soloing based on my definition? Probably not, because the progression will likely not be meaningful.

So, while in Pantheon you could go out and kill mobs by yourself, are you going to progress at the same rate as players who group? Based on what we know so far, no. Therefore, I do not consider Pantheon a solo game, even though they have stated you will be able to kill a mob by yourself.

Overall maergoth, I agree with your sentiment on this issue and would hope Pantheon does do what you are suggesting.

This post was edited by bigdogchris at July 4, 2019 3:21 PM PDT
maergoth
- 5 posts
July 4, 2019 3:34 PM PDT

Absolutely agree. I think the burden is on developers to find that balance, without specifically dedicating time to creating solo content. The progression may not be meaningful, but hinging the entire game on some arbitrary concept of progression is also ill-advised.

Should still be able to obtain wealth from things beneath you, while the exp curve should sufficiently prevent it from advancing your level. And it should be, per minute of your time, a better deal to seek a group. Even if you only have 30 minutes to do so, or don't want to engage with people intimately.

I don't think Pantheon is at risk of becoming anything close to a solo game. I do think there will continue to be some solid backlash from people who want that, even in a game like this (and there has been, as it continues to creep up in discussions on these forums and other social media) I do think addressing those people, rather than dismissing them, is the best way to go. And the best way to do it is to ask WHY they want to solo, and solve those problems. Not just.. refuse to give it to them or call them casual scum. Even if they are casual scum.

In the end, I do think that these guidelines will allow for solo content to exist, without dedicating time to their development or detracting from the group experience.
Syrif
- 1247 posts
July 4, 2019 4:04 PM PDT

Yes, group play does need to be significant in an mmo.

#communitymatters
Aich
- 1095 posts
July 4, 2019 4:45 PM PDT

I fixed the forums css if anyone notice it was broke on this thread.. Looks like it was an rogue html element.

This post was edited by Aich at July 4, 2019 4:52 PM PDT
Tigersin
- 374 posts
July 4, 2019 5:15 PM PDT

maergoth said: This horse has been beaten dead

I could not agree more with this. So that's good!
Cealtric
- 1584 posts
July 4, 2019 5:16 PM PDT

This topic again? Look like 90% will probably be for groups, and honestly I'm fine with that. Specially if the "solo" content doesn't drop much of anything for drops like you could get for grping to encourage grping more. But other than that I'm sure pantheon is heading he right direction with this, as it doesn't seem like soloing is a focus point at all.

Just enough to have some but definately not like WOW or FFXIV

This post was edited by Cealtric at July 4, 2019 5:17 PM PDT
Zorkon
- 1456 posts
July 4, 2019 9:10 PM PDT

maergoth said:

Vandraad said:

maergoth said: This horse has been beaten dead, but it's one of the few topics that needs to be beaten further.

Actually, no it doesn't.

It actually does, because there have somehow become anti solo and pro solo camps, with zero consideration for the reality of the situation: that group content and solo content should be the same thing, just at different levels.

That is exactly what everybody says when they insist people see a given situation their way. Just because people disagree with you does not mean they don't understand what your saying.

VR will make the game they want to.
Chanus
- 297 posts
July 5, 2019 4:15 AM PDT

Have they not repeatedly said they will not be creating content specifically for soloing but they will not be creating content specifically to prevent it?
VR-Mod1
- 9115 posts
July 5, 2019 6:49 AM PDT

Chanus said:

Have they not repeatedly said they will not be creating content specifically for soloing but they will not be creating content specifically to prevent it?

Yes. Repeatedly. :)