So I was watching the panthen plus Community Matters live stream yesterday and something they discussed is something I've always thought about as well with regards to Video Game development.
Did Visionary Realms open up about Pantheon it's races, it's characters, it's lore ... too soon?
The game was announced on January 13, 2014. It's been in pre-alpha since December 12th, 2017.
Now this post is in no way meant to bash Visionary Realms. I like the company very much (so far). However, there are things to consider when you are trying to make an MMORPG of some merit.
The hype train can derail and derail fast - When you cover a massive game such as an MMO that has a complex array of in game systems you have to to a juggling act. Everyone knows that MMO fans are very fickle. What may please one doesn't seem to please another. So when developing an MMO it's prudent to set your expections internally. You will tell your core team "This is what we are making. This is our sweet spot. This is the market segment we are trying to address." It's easy to lose sight of your initial goals when the train drags on and on.
Commiting too soon - Stating mechanics of classes or core game systems or even phase/release deadline dates. Pantheon had said it would be in an Alpha state before the end of 2018. They obviously missed this date and for a good reason. They are trying to get the game to a state it should be in for an Alpha release. However, that can me one small blemish on their record.
Involving the community too much - This was a huge problem for WildStar. They were really the first developer of a large scale MMO to open the gates way early and allow the community to have an impact on the development of the game. In my mind this was a massive mistake as the combat system suffered from their desire to satisfy a community that of course would want all kinds of features. Tab targeting, lock on, mouselook, telegraphs. In the end the combat system was an amalgum of systems that felt klunky and not polished. You have to be very careful of losing focus of your initial internal expectations for your project.
Having large droughts in communication - In an effort to get funding many games will release a lot of information all up front. However, now they have nothing left to really say. They are in full development and can only give tidbits out to the community. This eventually leads to dissillusionment and a feeling of a loss of trust. Remember what I said, MMO players are some of the most fickle and impatient of all players. Keep in mind the average development time of an mmo is usually around 5 years. Pantheon was announced in 2014 so patience can be waning.
These are just a few things I could go on and on but I thought it would be interesting to hear other's feedback. I'm sure we'll have the devout the Pantheon fan boys/girls immediately bash any negativity towards their jewel of the nile but again I'm not trying to bash Visionary Realms but point out that care needs to be taken when dealing with a beast that is the MMORPG.
~ CaffeineInjected ~
That’s interesting, but I don’t think VR opened up some things too soon. I think they know the players they are appealing to. Races/classes - I think it’s safe to assume that what we know of VR’s matrix has to do with the lore, quests, cities etc that they are developing. That‘s a lot of development I’d imagine. Knowing what we know gives us a good idea of what this game will be like. I think all of the development is looking pretty awesome. I do think VR needs to carry on with their vision though and not bow down to ‘this person’ or ‘that person’ demanding changes (afterall these are quite a minority of players in the big picture). I am always skeptical of someone demanding changes to a good game. Obviously, I’m a HUGE Visionary Realms fan hehe :) Pantheon Onward!
I think they released the class reveals a little to early OR they didn't follow it up with the hype that people expected to see racials. I think if we where getting some of that stuff now 3 races each month people would be hyped and talking about the game like when the classes where revealed.
But, once this current project is done and they can start spilling the beans, we will see a lot of that hype recover. I can imagine seeing new streams with the streamer programme going more frequently and the news letters containing more and more. I've been following pantheon since before June 2014 (my forum joining date) and my hype has not diminished I still spend many, many hours each day browsing the forums and trying to absorb any information I can about pantheon, we will see a return of fresh information and it will be glorious.
I think that the 'too soon' pov is understandable but considering the trouble at start up, the slower than hoped for gathering of funds and the limitations on company size, it couldn't be helped. I want to say something like 'I can't blame them for being excited to share what they had'.
That said, I feel that both we and VR should focus on todays communication. Sort of a live in the moment not in the past idea. I would like to see more comments from members of the development team... today.
I think a couple people commented on that in last nights stream.
Also, I heard you, Chris! LOL You're appreciated!
Caffeineinjected said:So I was watching the panthen plus Community Matters live stream yesterday and something they discussed is something I've always thought about as well with regards to Video Game development.
Did Visionary Realms open up about Pantheon it's races, it's characters, it's lore ... too soon?
The game was announced on January 13, 2014. It's been in pre-alpha since December 12th, 2017.
Now this post is in no way meant to bash Visionary Realms. I like the company very much (so far). However, there are things to consider when you are trying to make an MMORPG of some merit.
The hype train can derail and derail fast - When you cover a massive game such as an MMO that has a complex array of in game systems you have to to a juggling act. Everyone knows that MMO fans are very fickle. What may please one doesn't seem to please another. So when developing an MMO it's prudent to set your expections internally. You will tell your core team "This is what we are making. This is our sweet spot. This is the market segment we are trying to address." It's easy to lose sight of your initial goals when the train drags on and on.
From what I've seen, at least for the most part, VR seems to be sticking to their vision. There's an awful lot we don't know, but based on what I've seen, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Caffeineinjected said:Commiting too soon - Stating mechanics of classes or core game systems or even phase/release deadline dates. Pantheon had said it would be in an Alpha state before the end of 2018. They obviously missed this date and for a good reason. They are trying to get the game to a state it should be in for an Alpha release. However, that can me one small blemish on their record.
Meh, nobody's perfect. If this is the worst that happens, we're in really good shape. Besides, they needed to generate interest to generate income. Not a juggling act I'd want to try.
Caffeineinjected said:Involving the community too much - This was a huge problem for WildStar. They were really the first developer of a large scale MMO to open the gates way early and allow the community to have an impact on the development of the game. In my mind this was a massive mistake as the combat system suffered from their desire to satisfy a community that of course would want all kinds of features. Tab targeting, lock on, mouselook, telegraphs. In the end the combat system was an amalgum of systems that felt klunky and not polished. You have to be very careful of losing focus of your initial internal expectations for your project.
Getting feedback from the community and giving in to every demand of the community are very different things. From what I've seen, VR is in the former category, which is a good thing.
Caffeineinjected said:Having large droughts in communication - In an effort to get funding many games will release a lot of information all up front. However, now they have nothing left to really say. They are in full development and can only give tidbits out to the community. This eventually leads to dissillusionment and a feeling of a loss of trust. Remember what I said, MMO players are some of the most fickle and impatient of all players. Keep in mind the average development time of an mmo is usually around 5 years. Pantheon was announced in 2014 so patience can be waning.
It technically started in 2014, but got rebooted, so I'll cut them some slack. At this point (and this is pure speculation on my part), I'd bet they're shooting for a holiday season 2020 release, but that's just a guess. There's only so much you can release without the fickle community crying foul and there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth. It looks like there's a whole bunch that we still don't know, so teasers could still be coming for quite a while. At least with this game, we have actual game footage and people playing it, to mostly really positive reviews (unlike others who have sold overpriced in-game stuff with little to nowhere to actually use said stuff).
Caffeineinjected said:These are just a few things I could go on and on but I thought it would be interesting to hear other's feedback. I'm sure we'll have the devout the Pantheon fan boys/girls immediately bash any negativity towards their jewel of the nile but again I'm not trying to bash Visionary Realms but point out that care needs to be taken when dealing with a beast that is the MMORPG.
~ CaffeineInjected ~
I'm really, really looking forward to this game and any info I can get about it. Will it be perfect in every way as far as I'm concerned? Doubt it, but it isn't my game. I want VR to make their game. As cool as some features, abilities or QoL improvements are, games need boundaries, for a host of reasons. Besides, sometimes we really don't want things that we think we do because of the unintended consequences that nobody saw coming. :)
I think their only mistake was starting the Kickstarter when they did. I'll admit I never pledged the Kickstarter because I didn't like what I saw, it was a lot of talk, but not much to show for it. I believe that is the primary reason the Kickstarter failed, and I recall Brad admitting as much in an interview. VR has also alluded several times, in interviews and elsewhere, that the game was practically rebooted from the ground up following the failure of the Kickstarter. So, in that regard, I think it's unfair to judge them on a 2014 timeline, when the timeline of today's Pantheon more than likely began in late-2015/early-2016.
Sure, it sucks that we didn't get Alpha in 2018, but anyone that's been into MMOs for as long as some of us have (25+ years), disappointment is only par for the course. Still, I would rather the team miss a few loose deadlines than end up with what happened to WildStar (I played it, I agree with your analysis wholeheartedly).
The majority of your post seems concerned with developers trading their vision in exchange for hype. I don't think VR's done that so far, no. You could argue that the consequence of their solidarity is low hype. Low hype's only a problem if it puts their business at risk. They seem funded, so I think they're doing a pretty good job so far.
No, they did not open the gates too soon because this is a crowd funded game. By definition that means opening the gates as early as possible; much earlier than you normally would see in a game. The only people that are over-hyping the game are players.
Yes, Alpha start date was missed but that's what happens during development. Things happened that caused delays, plus I suspect PF threw a wrench in the plans they shared in fall 2017. We got a nugget of info that turned out later to get changed, and now they are getting beat up for it. It's a fine balance they have to strike and a reason why it's really hard to share info too soon.
I really don't understand where people are coming from when posts like these arise surrounding "hype" and it dying or being too soon etc.
If you are here right now then you exist in pre-hype Pantheon. VR hasn't even started the hype train on their end, hell they haven't even finished the engine let alone placed it on the track.
Manouk said:there was a live stream? what the- *blink*
will a link be posted anywhere for replay? hopefully? even if just chat?
this is the first time I have seen an MMO give info from day one of development.
They were referring to some fan based stuff I believe.
Manouk said:there was a live stream? what the- *blink*
will a link be posted anywhere for replay? hopefully? even if just chat?
this is the first time I have seen an MMO give info from day one of development.
Yep. BIG stream. Our content creators work hard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qZnBxPDBRU&feature=youtu.be
I don't believe we did.
It has been a bumpy ride in the beginning for sure, and I think a lot of that came from being so transparent in the early stages and setting that expectation throughout development, which no other company in their right mind would have done! But in our case, it worked well because we knew what game we wanted to make, had a community that wanted it made and had a vision/philosophies already in place but it meant that everyone and anyone could look in from the outside and cast their opinion or judge us, especially being in the digital/social media age that we live in where anyone can express their opinion from nearly any point on the planet at whatever time of day or night they want.
We had to taper off a bit from that "all-in transparency mode" and be a little more cautious of what we released for a number of reasons, privacy, competition, over hype etc. but I think we are at a point now where things are good, we have released a lot of useful info, we continue to manage hype and expectations as best as we can (hype is self-managed in most cases, but we try to be mindful of any advertising/releases/marketing wording etc.) and while there will always be quiet periods in development with every game company, we still try to get small snippets of info out where we can.
Project Faerthale is our next big reveal, and all hands are on deck for that which is why we have been a bit quiet for the last few months, but hopefully, soon we can start to slowly release bits and pieces until we can do the full reveal.
We really do appreciate your patience folks, we know how tough it can be trying to hold out for sometimes months at a time but I can assure you it will be worth it, just ride the wave until PF releases and you will see why we had to knuckle down and concentrate!
P.S. Our community is amazing and that stream was the bomb, I can't tell you guys how much I love seeing you all work together, the team loved the stream too! <3
Definitely not. They really have no choice, being a crowd-funded game.
TBH I found the most recent newsletter disappointing. I was happy with the "bits and pieces" that we had gotten earlier this year, with the understanding that Project Faerthale was ramping up and building steam. But I kind of expected to see the teases of in-game progress (character models, animations, spell effects, environment, game systems) to pick up a bit this far into development of PF. Instead, we got nothing. Disappointing to see things trending in the wrong direction. Don't get me wrong-- I'm not hitting the panic button. But when something spirals downward when you expect to see it rising, that has to be concerning.
They really had to do this way. I just hope they stick to their original plan and make a great game.
Pantheon is a full 2+ years away from retail release. I love that they are open (as they can be) and invite us to share each milestone.
I like reading these boards and anything at all about the game. I am excited. Can't wait for a little alpha. But, I know we have a long road ahead. 2021 is likely off the table. Look for 2022 or later for release date. They are still using 2D art concepts for PF. Just that One area (which is a large area) won't be finished before 2020.
I think the "hype" of them opening the gates too soon is nonsence.
Once they release, IF they release a good game (and i'm confedant they will) they will come. Any early "hype" might stop them from coming quite as fast. but as long as they have a good game, even some that might be copping an attatude will change there mind, or be left out!
So, I don't think that VR opened up about the game too soon - but I also think that we as players and gamers need to learn to temper our expectations. Or rather, we need to do a better job of understanding how development actually works and respecting that for most of the game's development we will have partial and incomplete information that is very likely going to be subject to change.
That is to say I don't think the fault lies with VR or any other company. It lies with us as players and supporters.
When games don't do well or when they have an aspect that doesn't do well, we like to try to find some reason to blame. We'll say things like "they didn't listen to their community enough!" or "they listened to their community too much!" or "they didn't stick to their vision!" or "they caved to mainstream players!". But honestly, in my experience it's all just a bunch of rationalization. Excuses. Each and every single one of us has at one time in our lives made what we thought was a good decision and then found that the outcome wasn't what we expected for whatever reason. That's part of being human. Developers are humans too. They're going to make choices that seem like the right way to go, and it's only later that we'll all realize that maybe a different approach would have worked better.
In my opinion, this is why community engagement is critical. If there's one thing that can be said about MMO gamers it's that we have long memories. When something didn't work in a game we played, we will absolutely remember what happened and why it didn't work (for THAT game). For a team making a new game, being able to tap into that font of knowledge is a huge benefit. Monitoring community discussions to look for potential issues in a design, or even just see how players are reacting to an idea is a very valuable source of feedback that they can't really get any other way.
At the same time, that community engagement needs to be at arms' length in many cases. Developers need the ability to try and remain objective and watch the debates play out among the players. They need to be able to see all sides of an issue, especially when it's a contentious one where there's no perfect answer. They can't really do that if they're always in the thick of it arguing and debating with the players. There's too much pressure to "pick a side".
In the past 19 or so years I've had the chance to be involved with several MMOs before they were launched, starting with Star Wars Galaxies in its early, early development back in 2000. In every case (including Wildstar), community engagement has helped the developers avoid pitfalls, make more educated decisions, and leverage the collective knowledge and wisdom of their playerbase to try and really do justice to the game they were making. By contrast, in 20 years of playing many different MMOs I have never seen a single one ship without multiple flaws or design choices that played out poorly in the months and years to come, regardless of how early the community was engaged.
No MMO will ever do everything right the first time - especially not if they're taking risks and innovating which we all hopefully agree is a necessary thing. And our job as supporters of Pantheon is to be willing to accept that, and to try and help VR during testing to identify as many of those problems as possible. The fact that we're engaged so early just makes it easier for us to do that, even if it does seem like we're spinning at times.
Yes, I agree with OP, but a necessary evil. As a crowdfunded game I just don't know how they could have done things any other way...
Unlike a traditionally funded game that can keep things under wraps until they are about to release, with crowdfunding the hype train is an absolute necessity. If I'm being really honest, I don't even think the 'delays' in alpha and beta are even real. I personally think all that changed was their funding situation. With low funds, you have no choice but to release before you are ready in the hopes it will drum up more funding and interest and get income streams going. But once they got some seed funding they were able to wait a bit longer and release in a more polished state, which had a snowball effect by increasing interest and crowdfunding revenue. As people see more polished game streams they pledge more, or they get new pledges.
It's kind of like guild recruitment. Slow in the beginning because it's hard to recruit people when you don't have anyone, but the more people you have and the more success you have at whatever your guild is focused on people see that success and see that larger group of people and growth snowballs until eventually, you don't even have to recruit... people come to you instead of you having to go looking. This is really the same thing... As much as I hate it, the delay in alpha and beta is really a good thing. It means they have the luxury of going slower. We'd need to be worried if they were rushing an unfinished mess out the door and people were posting really negative comments about a crappy alpha... or if all of a sudden posting, streams and information dried up as it would mean the ship was sinking.
That said, yeah... I was a very early pledge, so after 5 years of waiting, I've grown beyond impatient. My advice? A watched pot never boils... Quit watching the pot and go do something else. I only visit these forums every six months or so because I can't take the teasing. Go play an EQ1 progression server or something and convince yourself that this game is vaporware so you aren't tempted to check your email six times a minute for an alpha invite and double, triple, and quadruple check your email profile settings to make SURE you haven't accidentally missed that coveted email.
((I personally think all that changed was their funding situation. With low funds, you have no choice but to release before you are ready in the hopes it will drum up more funding and interest and get income streams going. But once they got some seed funding they were able to wait a bit longer and release in a more polished state, which had a snowball effect by increasing interest and crowdfunding revenue.))
With a high level of probability I believe that this is the reason for the current delay. Notwithstanding some scepticism I am inclined to believe them when they say that the delay now will result in faster progresss later and what they call "alpha" has morphed into what many game companies would call a beta.
If so the dream of release in 2020 is not dead (years of delays tempt me to add the word "yet" here but heroically I refrain).
2020 release is dead and buried. 2021 not even likely IMO. Which is fine IMO. Most important things is to get it done right.