I'm starting this thread because replying in the thread on immersion and mounts will keep that train running off the rails. Not picking on you, Tanix, but one of your replies was a great starter for it.
Tanix said:First person is to see the world as it is through your characters eyes, it is to immerse yourself into the chracter by making its view point as close to your own. A 3rd person camera is the opposite of such, it is a detachment of "you" from your character to provide a narrative view and interaction of your character. It is the visual concept of saying "My character does this... my character does that..." as opposed to "I do this... I do that" and it is less immersive by the very definition of what "immersion" means.
There are several things that add to immersion overall. Sadly, in video games, we're limited to two - what we see and what we hear. If I were going to immerse myself in another land, another culture, another time, there would be so many other things that I would experience. You'd feel the heat and humidity of a tropical environment or the biting cold and dry air of a polar one, you'd smell the burning fires and animal dung, you'd have to learn the native language (still hoping this one makes it into Pantheon), you'd have to learn customs, what the currency is, how and where to get food and water, what food you actually like, where you'll live and sleep - so many things that involve all the senses. The thing about 3rd person view that I think adds to immersion is it lets you imagine all of the things I just listed, because we can't feel, smell or taste in a video game. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I'd actually want to smell and feel some of the things in games, but being zoomed out with the camera lets me imagine it and adds to the overall feel of things.
Percipiens said:I'm starting this thread because replying in the thread on immersion and mounts will keep that train running off the rails. Not picking on you, Tanix, but one of your replies was a great starter for it.
Tanix said:First person is to see the world as it is through your characters eyes, it is to immerse yourself into the chracter by making its view point as close to your own. A 3rd person camera is the opposite of such, it is a detachment of "you" from your character to provide a narrative view and interaction of your character. It is the visual concept of saying "My character does this... my character does that..." as opposed to "I do this... I do that" and it is less immersive by the very definition of what "immersion" means.
There are several things that add to immersion overall. Sadly, in video games, we're limited to two - what we see and what we hear. If I were going to immerse myself in another land, another culture, another time, there would be so many other things that I would experience. You'd feel the heat and humidity of a tropical environment or the biting cold and dry air of a polar one, you'd smell the burning fires and animal dung, you'd have to learn the native language (still hoping this one makes it into Pantheon), you'd have to learn customs, what the currency is, how and where to get food and water, what food you actually like, where you'll live and sleep - so many things that involve all the senses. The thing about 3rd person view that I think adds to immersion is it lets you imagine all of the things I just listed, because we can't feel, smell or taste in a video game. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I'd actually want to smell and feel some of the things in games, but being zoomed out with the camera lets me imagine it and adds to the overall feel of things.
So how does 3rd person provide that while 1st person does not? In first person, the experience is "out of your own eyes", a first hand experience of the environment. You still see your environment, but... you are not provided with visuals you would normally not be able to see (ie behind your head, around corners, top down views, etc..). In fact, I would say it is more "immersive" in that it is closer to the actual experience of the play (ie you must look around actively to see your surroundings, approaching corners and looking around them actually makes you vulnerable as it would realistically, there is the fear and anticpiation of someone suprising you, sneaking up on you because you can't see everywhere at once).
Now I understand that being able to see your entire surroundings in 3rd person may give you a more"open" feeling of play, less restricted, and less active, to which might contribute to you becoming more immersed in the environments beauty, sounds, etc... but then I guess at that point we have to define what it is you are immersing yourself in. Is it your character or simply the environment? I can understand the argument of immersion into the environment using 3rd person, but that is not immersing ones self into the character. That can only be done by becoming the character. That is, to be immersed into the chraracter, I would have to have its limitations, its perspective and limitations due to that perspective. A 3rd person view is not immersive in that sense as it is counter to the character or "roles" immersion. Sure, you are "immersed" into the world maybe, but not your character.
While I can respect your feeling in this, I also think that a lot of people use this view not for what you say, but as a means to avoid dealing with the consequences of true immersion into a role/character. That is, they do not want the restrictions of not being able to see around them at once, to see around corners, to be able to see dangers above, around, etc.. before they are near. That is, they have a natural instinctive desire to play from a perspective that is less active and lacks as many consequences in play. A 3rd person view is far superior in game play than a first person and by its very nature it circumvents the immersion of the character as you are not held to the characters view, you are not immersed into that character itself.
stellarmind said:since they are using a modified unity engine it is possible for them to give us a vr experience. here's a good spot to drop a pun related to visionary realms and virtual reality, but i'm a potato and i'd rather roam the forums looking at what ppl are typing.
You can also use a wide screen monitor with adjusted FOV to reach a reasonable realistic range of view a normal person would have. Even so, you still would not be able to see behind your head, around corners without actually looking, or from a view of above). That is why I think a lot of the dislike for 1st person is weighted in the limits it puts on people in play. People have become accustomed to the perks of being able to see in 3rd person and would not like to give up those advantages.
Aayden said: By the pure definition of the word, it is immersion is defined as a deep mental involvement.
Absorbing involvement is part of it, but the core of the word is to submerge into something, to envelop ones self in something. So, how immersion is used is realtive to the means to which it is applied. To be immersed into a character, then it would require you take on the elements of that characters perceptions, abilities, its existence in the world. In this case, that would mean 1st person as to immerse ones self in the character is to see through its eyes, how it sees according to its own view and limitations of.
In this sense, 3rd person by its function and use within this context is less immersive by the definition and constraints of the meaning of the word while first person is more immersive in that it places the person closer to the actual perception and limitations of the character being played.
Tanix said:So how does 3rd person provide that while 1st person does not? In first person, the experience is "out of your own eyes", a first hand experience of the environment. You still see your environment, but... you are not provided with visuals you would normally not be able to see (ie behind your head, around corners, top down views, etc..). In fact, I would say it is more "immersive" in that it is closer to the actual experience of the play (ie you must look around actively to see your surroundings, approaching corners and looking around them actually makes you vulnerable as it would realistically, there is the fear and anticpiation of someone suprising you, sneaking up on you because you can't see everywhere at once).
Never said 3rd person provided that while 1st person didn't, was just giving my reasons for using 3rd person. They both have their place. One of the advantages of first person is the heightened sense of danger you feel and an up-close and personal feel for combat and travel. One of the disadvantages is you don't know about the orc camp over the hill to your left because you can't smell the animals they have cooking on the fire.
Tanix said:Now I understand that being able to see your entire surroundings in 3rd person may give you a more"open" feeling of play, less restricted, and less active, to which might contribute to you becoming more immersed in the environments beauty, sounds, etc... but then I guess at that point we have to define what it is you are immersing yourself in. Is it your character or simply the environment? I can understand the argument of immersion into the environment using 3rd person, but that is not immersing ones self into the character. That can only be done by becoming the character. That is, to be immersed into the chraracter, I would have to have its limitations, its perspective and limitations due to that perspective. A 3rd person view is not immersive in that sense as it is counter to the character or "roles" immersion. Sure, you are "immersed" into the world maybe, but not your character.
I don't know that I'd call it less active, honestly. In some ways, it's more active, scanning around for clues as to who and what is near - water, camps, animals, ruins, bridges, etc. Games offer so much for us to take in and it's one of the ways I use to take in as much as I can. While I'm very much against player owned flying mounts, I do hope there will be a way we can see the world from that perspective, maybe paying the gnome captain to give us a scenic tour or something similar.
Tanix said:While I can respect your feeling in this, I also think that a lot of people use this view not for what you say, but as a means to avoid dealing with the consequences of true immersion into a role/character. That is, they do not want the restrictions of not being able to see around them at once, to see around corners, to be able to see dangers above, around, etc.. before they are near. That is, they have a natural instinctive desire to play from a perspective that is less active and lacks as many consequences in play. A 3rd person view is far superior in game play than a first person and by its very nature it circumvents the immersion of the character as you are not held to the characters view, you are not immersed into that character itself.
Yes, I agree with you, but it's how they choose to play the game and that's ok. There's a thread in Joppa's Journal about sounds in the game. They are, imo, a big thing that adds to the environment and immersion, both on a micro and macro level. As stated earlier, we're limited to what we can see and hear in games. Zooming out with the camera lets us see more. I'm reallly hoping that sound clues will be there when I'm zoomed in. Coming up to a corner in a dungeon, I want to hear footsteps or some evidence of something or someone near.
Which camera view is appropriate for a game is greatly influenced by the type of game. First person shooters are designed based on line of sight and manual targeting. Most MMOs have been designed based on broad spatial awareness and auto targeting. Broad spatial awareness games usually require players to be able to select targets out of a crowd of friend and foe as well as spot broad area environmental changes with very short allowable response times.
And MMO created based on line of sight and manual targeting could be very immersive, especially if said game could be published as a full VR title. Inevitably though this leads much more to twitch style of action rpg game play rather than tactical slower speed game play VR is attempting to capture. It would be interesting to see an MMO based on direct line of sight while still remaining slower tactical game play. From how zones are modeled and created, to how tab targeting and tactical combat function, to how abilities and agro functions Pantheon is being created as a third person camera game.
It is likely be possible in Pantheon for some classes to play from first person view some of the time but you likely miss out on visual cues you are expected to respond to in a timely manner. You will also have trouble selecting the right target if there are 4 big mobs and a mountain of ogre butt right in front of you and your appropriate target is on the other side of them. It is likely that the world will even look slightly odd if the rendering is intended to be viewed from a higher angle.
Either way immersion is usually more a function of how intuitive game play is rather than the camera view it is designed based around. The more you need to look for UI buttons, fight through spell books and skill menus, tab half a dozen times to get the right circle under the right mob the less immersive the game is. Being able to play purely on muscle memory based on sight and sound inputs without relying on UI notifications is the ultimate goal for immersion.
It's nice to be able to switch perspectives..
First of all in battle, head turn is an option for VR while leaving the hands free, but in battle we will need to see around us. I can only see doing that in first person if there was a way that I could click and automagically rotate to my target. Additionally, even if they made an actively updated list with who's targeting what in the party with anything in aggro range popping up on the list, I'm not sure how immersed I would be in anything but the list.
I would totally stay in first person if I could auto-rotate to my new target and know what effects they're under.....but basically something with the complexity of the terminator read-out is what I need....Now where did I put that haptic suit...hmmm...must be in the time machine
Normally my best immersion is 1st walking around and 3rd in battle..because my focus has totally changed from feeling the world to surviving it.
Maybe with today's tech, better immersion comes from addressing the other senses than visual...If I could feel behind me, and hear behind me...feel the air move...I think the best attempts at immersion so far address immersion with the other senses with expensive composed sound and music. Even then it was indirect and a distractive cue (mandatory EQ2 music and voice-over reference here), and they had to revert to visual cues for what's going on behind me. I would rather be in 3rd person than use unrealistic visual cues to show something coming at me from behind like a map of red dots or red circle on the ground.
Immersion is about belief and focus as much as anything else, so to me it doesn't matter if I'm a god looking down or an elf enchanter staring at the world in infrared through mine own eyes...
Good topic. I was such a noob on day one of EQ original (vanilla) that I didn't know I could move out of 1st person view until I was lev 18...
when I did find that I could change the camera view, I found that I didn't like 3rd person at all (at the time)
Fast forward 20 years and I use both 1st and 3rd person. and I feel like I am just as immersed in either view. I still actually like and use first person a lot on EQ Mangler TLP. But, I also like to look at my awesome armor too. so when I am not grouped, I roll 3rd person just to enjoy my characters armor. I would love to see a specialty server with a locked 1st person view. that would be fun! (to me)
Now. all that being said, there are many of you that talk about immersion as a visual; How many of you have invested in a 7.1 SURROUND system so that you HEAR that sand giant coming from the southwest and not just generic stoms on the ground. immersion takes audio to complete the visual IMO. if you have a 2.0/2.1 etc without speakers BEHIND (4.1/5.1 minimum and 7.1 being even more real sounding), the immersion lacks realism... In addition to having 5.1/7.1 etc. sound also needs a Good sound card. and positioned properly to that sounds are in the correct places at the correct volume levels. IMO, if you haven't set up sound properly, immersion can't happen visually. my 2 cents.
Flapp said:Good topic. I was such a noob on day one of EQ original (vanilla) that I didn't know I could move out of 1st person view until I was lev 18...
when I did find that I could change the camera view, I found that I didn't like 3rd person at all (at the time)
Fast forward 20 years and I use both 1st and 3rd person. and I feel like I am just as immersed in either view. I still actually like and use first person a lot on EQ Mangler TLP. But, I also like to look at my awesome armor too. so when I am not grouped, I roll 3rd person just to enjoy my characters armor. I would love to see a specialty server with a locked 1st person view. that would be fun! (to me)
Now. all that being said, there are many of you that talk about immersion as a visual; How many of you have invested in a 7.1 SURROUND system so that you HEAR that sand giant coming from the southwest and not just generic stoms on the ground. immersion takes audio to complete the visual IMO. if you have a 2.0/2.1 etc without speakers BEHIND (4.1/5.1 minimum and 7.1 being even more real sounding), the immersion lacks realism... In addition to having 5.1/7.1 etc. sound also needs a Good sound card. and positioned properly to that sounds are in the correct places at the correct volume levels. IMO, if you haven't set up sound properly, immersion can't happen visually. my 2 cents.
I was such a noob in early EQ I didn't find out about full screen mode until around that level. :D I wholeheartedly agree, sound is huge. This thread talks a little about it:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2767/in-game-sounds
I will give my take on it with the caveat that my opinion is no more or no less valid than anyone elses. it is just my opinion.
First-Person vs Third-Person and "immersion". Like it was stated earlier, it depends on your definition of "immersion". *MY* definition of "immersion" is "do I feel like I am a part of the character and the world". For me, it is first-person that provides that. I am viewing the world as if my monitor(s) are my eyes. I still roll out to third-person from time to time just for the "oooohhh pretty" factor. At least 95% of the time, however, I am in first-person mode. I can't see out of the side or back of my head in real-life, so that's why first-person feels more immersive to me. With that being said, spacial sound is a requirement for that. You have to be able to hear that mob clomping through the woods behind you. You have spacial hearing "in the real world" so it's a must for "immersion" in first-person mode. I know that spacial sound is a thing in Pantheon, because it is specifically called out in the stream with CohhCarnage where they are showing the first pass of the new lighting effects.
I understand why others prefer third-person and am definitely glad that Pantheon will be supporting both, as I would not be playing it if it didn't support first-person. The "dumb" part is that I have heard of groups kicking people out who had chosen one over the other. Mostly around people who have chosen to be in first-person. Apparently, somehow, they are magically a hinderance to the group because they choose not to see a "God's Eye" view of the world.
Flapp said:
Now. all that being said, there are many of you that talk about immersion as a visual; How many of you have invested in a 7.1 SURROUND system so that you HEAR that sand giant coming from the southwest and not just generic stoms on the ground. immersion takes audio to complete the visual IMO. if you have a 2.0/2.1 etc without speakers BEHIND (4.1/5.1 minimum and 7.1 being even more real sounding), the immersion lacks realism... In addition to having 5.1/7.1 etc. sound also needs a Good sound card. and positioned properly to that sounds are in the correct places at the correct volume levels. IMO, if you haven't set up sound properly, immersion can't happen visually. my 2 cents.
Most definitely agree, to me sound is a huge part of gaming immersion thus my like for the keyboard to communicate in game while in small groups, of course in raids one get to miss out a bit due to the need of focus.
stellarmind said:Tanix said:stellarmind said:since they are using a modified unity engine it is possible for them to give us a vr experience. here's a good spot to drop a pun related to visionary realms and virtual reality, but i'm a potato and i'd rather roam the forums looking at what ppl are typing.
You can also use a wide screen monitor with adjusted FOV to reach a reasonable realistic range of view a normal person would have. Even so, you still would not be able to see behind your head, around corners without actually looking, or from a view of above). That is why I think a lot of the dislike for 1st person is weighted in the limits it puts on people in play. People have become accustomed to the perks of being able to see in 3rd person and would not like to give up those advantages.
Honestly i just play in 3rd person so i can stare at my characters butt.
And I play in first person so I can stare at your butt.
Yes, and good people know this without the need to be taught. This is why they are, what we call "good people": the standard by which all shall be judged.
I would use third person primarily for preening, to see how that armor/clothing looked. Nothing a mirror could not also accomplish.
Keno Monster said:Frankly I'd be happy with no third person, although I liked the camera in EQ a lot. Tanix is, as usual, correct. Sneaking peaks around corners with your camera is bush league.
Yep, exactly what I think. I totally agree with Tanix - 1st person.
Syrif said:Keno Monster said:Frankly I'd be happy with no third person, although I liked the camera in EQ a lot. Tanix is, as usual, correct. Sneaking peaks around corners with your camera is bush league.
Yep, exactly what I think. I totally agree with Tanix - 1st person.
I think we need to remember Pantheon is not Rainbow six or CSGO, or even PVP based, There’s no need for this elitist ideology, referring to Third person as “bush League” in a game that that is meant to be a cooperative experience amongst players.
I certainly don't want the group cleric hindered by first person, sure they might “believe” it’s more immersive, but its certainty not more effective for tossing heals.
Personally I prefer third person, it’s more immersive to me, I don't feel uneasy with Third, while first person feels like an uncanny valley to me without a gun.
Most importantly, it should be the choice of the player, and since both are already in game I don’t see how this thread servers to do anything but create hostilities.
HemlockReaper said:Syrif said:Keno Monster said:Frankly I'd be happy with no third person, although I liked the camera in EQ a lot. Tanix is, as usual, correct. Sneaking peaks around corners with your camera is bush league.
Yep, exactly what I think. I totally agree with Tanix - 1st person.
I think we need to remember Pantheon is not Rainbow six or CSGO, or even PVP based, There’s no need for this elitist ideology, referring to Third person as “bush League” in a game that that is meant to be a cooperative experience amongst players.
I certainly don't want the group cleric hindered by first person, sure they might “believe” it’s more immersive, but its certainty not more effective for tossing heals.
Personally I prefer third person, it’s more immersive to me, I don't feel uneasy with Third, while first person feels like an uncanny valley to me without a gun.
Most importantly, it should be the choice of the player, and since both are already in game I don’t see how this thread servers to do anything but create hostilities.
I don't think its 'elitist' to think this way really. Old EQ was all first person for a long while. The ability to look around a corner before your character is physically able to do so as a way to scout while avoiding line of sight agro in an MMO, or look around to see whats sneaking up on you without having to turn or move etc, takes away the need to learn to be more careful and learn better situational awareness. Its in essense a form of cheat. Situational awareness is definetly part of coop play.
Add the thought of immersion into the mix, third person takes you out of your character. To me, thats far less imersive because it puts me in the position more like that of an observer, rather than a participant, even though yes, I'm still controlling the character. It also leads me to be a lazier player in my experience. Others may differ of course, but that was the effect for me.
So I'm definetly for first person all the way as well.
Darck said:I don't think its 'elitist' to think this way really. Old EQ was all first person for a long while. The ability to look around a corner before your character is physically able to do so as a way to scout while avoiding line of sight agro in an MMO, or look around to see whats sneaking up on you without having to turn or move etc, takes away the need to learn to be more careful and learn better situational awareness. Its in essense a form of cheat. Situational awareness is definetly part of coop play.
Add the thought of immersion into the mix, third person takes you out of your character. To me, thats far less imersive because it puts me in the position more like that of an observer, rather than a participant, even though yes, I'm still controlling the character. It also leads me to be a lazier player in my experience. Others may differ of course, but that was the effect for me.
So I'm definetly for first person all the way as well.
Um...we can have permanent 1st person view as soon as it's possible for a character to actually look around a corner without stepping around said corner. You know, like a real person would look around a corner (face only).
As long as that's not possible, I'll keep using 3rd person, thank you very much.
I can be equally immersed in both first and third person, it depends more on the game and overall design than my character's perspective. If there is first person, good implementations of it make a big difference, i.e. can I lean left/right to peek, can I see my body/hands/feet if l look down? Personally, first person requires a better implementation for me to be immersed, because a lot of games lack the capablities I just described, and that can be immersion breaking for me.
Either way, as long as there are options for both, I think everyone will be happy.
Sarim said:Darck said:I don't think its 'elitist' to think this way really. Old EQ was all first person for a long while. The ability to look around a corner before your character is physically able to do so as a way to scout while avoiding line of sight agro in an MMO, or look around to see whats sneaking up on you without having to turn or move etc, takes away the need to learn to be more careful and learn better situational awareness. Its in essense a form of cheat. Situational awareness is definetly part of coop play.
Add the thought of immersion into the mix, third person takes you out of your character. To me, thats far less imersive because it puts me in the position more like that of an observer, rather than a participant, even though yes, I'm still controlling the character. It also leads me to be a lazier player in my experience. Others may differ of course, but that was the effect for me.
So I'm definetly for first person all the way as well.
Um...we can have permanent 1st person view as soon as it's possible for a character to actually look around a corner without stepping around said corner. You know, like a real person would look around a corner (face only).
As long as that's not possible, I'll keep using 3rd person, thank you very much.
Do we know that there won't be a leaning mechanic? I haven't seen anything on that subject myself. I'd like it if there were, because yes, that would be realistic and more immersive. There should also be a slight chance of being seen, though much smaller than if you actually stepped around the corner of course.