I wanted to throw a topic out there that we rarely discuss and see what people's thoughts are.
We have spent a lot of time on these forums talking about what we see for Pantheon's late game (or end game, as some call it), when characters are at high levels. Many of us have worries, fears, and concerns about this stage of the game, that I don't think we need to go over those again.
Likewise, we've spent some time talking about the early game - those first 10-15 levels when people are just getting introduced to their classes and to major game systems and mechanics.
But what about the parts in the middle?
What should the player experience really be like from, say, level 15-20 up until level 45 or so? These levels shouldn't just be filler, glossed over, and more of the same stuff that people have already been doing - but so many games make them into exactly that. How can Pantheon treat its mid game differently? What sorts of things would we, the players, like to see happen during these levels?
By treating its "mid game" in the same way modern games treat their end game. That is, with content that is just as important in progression at that stage as it is in the final stages of the progression system.
EQ didn't have an "end game" in release, not in the sense that we know them today. Everything in EQ was important, be it at level 1 or at level 49. It was all "the game" and so all of it had equal treatment. Today, we treat the begining and end of an MMO differently because people have expectations. For instance, in the early game people think the game has to spend the early levels "teaching, training, guiding, and catering" to the player. The mid game is just fodder to fast burn through to get to the raiding game at the end. Again, treate your begining, middle and end the same with no special treatment, with all equally important content and you get what EQ was at release, just a nice MMORPG with a even progression system.
I would like to see mid game where we start to really venture out and explore new, far away and exciting landscapes, available only because we have proven ourselves at lower level content/dungeons.
I knowm dungeons will include content for a wide range of levels. But I think high 20's to high 30's should also have it's own areas The same with 40-50.
I'm sure this is how it will probably be anyway. But returning home after a few levels should really feel like one accomplished something great. A rite of passage if you will.
Here are some of my own thoughts on the topic:
Combat
In the early levels, players will be getting introduced to the basic abilities of their class. While many players will come to Pantheon being MMO veterans, they won't all have the same MMOs in their background, and there will likely be some "true" newbies who have never done this sort of thing before. So by necessity, players aren't just going to get a full bag of tricks right off the bat, and the early ability progression will be set up to try and give them time to learn what each thing does and get the core concepts down.
By the mid levels however (which I'm thinking should start by level 15 at the latest), players should have a full selection of their basic abilities/spells. This doesn't mean there's not cooler stuff out there to find, but what it means is that realistically they should have anything considered "core" to the class, at least in its early form.
For combat, what this means is that encounters should begin pushing players to use those abilities. A simple example: At early levels, poison or other DoT effects (applied to players) should be relatively rare and special, because it's entirely possible that players won't have the tools to handle those. However, by the mid game, groups should be expected to deal with DoTs on a regular basis. Another example should be concepts like resistances really starting to matter, forcing players to think about buffs and gear/spell selection, rather than just wading in with whatever they've got. These are just examples, but my point is that by the mid levels, when it comes to combat and the things you need to deal with in encounters, the training wheels should be fully taken off.
This applies to crafting in a similar way. If you think of a crafting action as an encounter, where you have to "beat" the system to create your item, then by the equivalent of level 15 or so, you should have to utilize the full range of your crafting abilities to "beat" that encounter.
Ability Progression
In the early levels, abilities should be more or less handed to the player by trainers for some coin. However, in the mid levels, a little bit more work should be required to earn new and upgraded abilities. This can mean a few things - players might have to seek out a more advanced trainer out in the world somewhere. Or, they might start seeing ability upgrades as drops in the depths of dungeons. Perhaps they need to start undertaking some quests to learn new abilities, or working on faction to get that trainer to talk to them. Ideally, all of the above. The mid levels are where the game says to the player "ok, if you want to progress, you actually have to go out and interact with the world. You can't simply go sit in a level appropriate area and expect everything to be handed to you just for beating fights."
Again, this applies to crafting as well. Someone shouldn't be able to simply live at the carpenter's guild in their home city and continually progress. If they want those fancy new recipes, or those more potent crafting abilities, they're going to have to get out there and earn them.
Travel
In the early levels, it's likely that players will stick close to home, with maybe a few trips out and back for dungeons, or to the next town over, or whatever. By the mid levels though, travel should be the norm. That next dungeon you want to get to might be 3 zones away. That trainer you're looking for is on the other side of the continent. The princess is in another castle. Players should get used to traveling, and ideally to having adventures along the way. This should scale as the player levels, with objectives becoming more and more spread out, and in deeper and darker places as well.
This doesn't mean that players should leave their home towns and never look back, however. There should be many reasons throughout the leveling journey to come back home to visit - whether that's to buy new equipment and supplies, or to talk to an NPC for a quest, or because you need to venture into the nooks and crannies of some of those earlier areas, that maybe you weren't strong enough to go into before. But the point is that the game should be requiring players to move around and see the world.
Items and Equipment
In the early levels, players will tend to use what they have, and that will generally be good enough. By the mid levels however, the game's itemization should be set up so that players need to really start thinking about what they're using. No one should be able to walk into a dungeon and walk out 3 levels later with a completely new kit. By the same token, no one should be able to do a series of quests and come out of it with everything they really could need or want for the next 5 or 10 levels. Items should be just as much goals as levels and abilities are, and should lead to adventures: If I've finished doing the quests for the Black Rose armor set, I should be trying to decide whether I want to go and try to get a Fadesteel weapon, or if I should instead go work on an artifact or two, or even if I should first go look for the materials to get a cold climate set put together by a friendly crafter. In fact, these things should probably be more important to me than leveling, because I should really need to think about these things if I want to be able to continue to progress.
This should apply to crafting as well. If I'm a blacksmith, I should be thinking about upgrading my hammer, and what I need to do that. But there's also my crafting leathers, which could be stronger as well.
Quests, Perception, and Story
In the early levels, players should really just be starting to understand their home towns and the factions and groups at play in those areas. In Faerthale, learning the differences between the Ashen, the Ember, and the Lucent, and learning about the threats that haunt the nearby lands. However, by the mid levels, things should become part of a larger puzzle. What was that Ulthirian wraith doing so far from home? Why are the bandits in Wild's End using human-made weaponry? And what's with those mysterious monoliths that the undead seem to gather around that we find scattere dall over?
Narrative progression should deepen as the levels go on - with threads of plotlines running through everything. Some local, some regional, some global. Some connected, some not, and some connections hidden in not-so-obvious ways. How is it that the orc chief was using a wraith-made weapon? What's the connection? And what's with that "Bad Wolf" name we keep seeing everywhere?
Challenges
Deep and challenging dungeon and raid encounters should not be something that players wait until the 40s to go see. If you're level 23 and staring at the orc fortress, you know it's going to take some friends and a few hours to get to the throne room. In fact, you might even want more than one group of friends if you plan on triggering the shaman ritual, so it might be best to wait until the weekend when everyone will have time for a long session. Sure, you could maybe bypass it, but that would mean missing out on those sweet rewards - or possibly not being able to figure out that mystery you're working on.
I could probably add more areas of the game to this, but my point in doing this sort of journey-mapping exercise was to try and call out some of the things that many of us are used to waiting until high levels to see, and point out that ideally, those things should be happening much earlier. The mid-level content in the game should be just as challenging, meaningful, and rewarding as the high-level content is.
Basically what Tanix said.
I typically get the the 40's and then my interest tends to wane. For years I wondered why, but I think it is related to expectations.
In the 40's, my character is powerful enough to do group content, go places, travel most anywhere without fear of imminent death if encountered. But yet not so high that raids are the the expected way to progress. I'm not really into raiding, I will do them occasionally, but when it becomes regular, it feels more like a job, and less like fun.
I'm hoping that progeny solves the issues of having a defined early/mid/end game. Every zone can be relevant even years and years after new content and expansions are released. In other words, there would be no such thing as end game. There would be max-level content but it wouldn't take away from the appeal of everything that came before it. Adventure Game sounds promising.
The problem with designing around mid game is it's a road stop in most MMOs. I'm not saying don't, just think about it. Anyone who starts the game will play the early game, most people will play it a few times due to alts. The end game is where the bottle neck happens since you can't move past it.
The middle is often times played in such a short duration its over looked. Level 15-45 is likely where most people will play, but then you have to think about exp spots and level ranges. Say every 5 levels you're likely going to move on to a new spot. That's six "mid games" you need to build to ensure you have engaging content the entire way. I totally get why its over looked. I'm hoping more effort and content goes into this area but its going to be wasted effort unless the Progeny system allows us, at max level, to go back and experience while progressing our character. Its cool to go sight see once or twice the areas you were at 30 levels ago but you need a reason to hold you there.
I am hoping thre is plenty of content that is not traveled by or discovered by a main to have an incentive to create a new character and try something new without having to play the same areas over and over, It would be nice to have a diverse large world where you could max a few characters without having to do too many of the same areas. Maybe not during the initial launch of course but add a few different locations of different lvl range here and there.
I think mid game will be where most of the content will be (especially at launch) and I think that’s a good thing. I recall VR saying to expect raids during these levels, too. I’d expect lots of zones and dungeons to explore and immerse ourselves in. Since they’ve said Pantheon is being designed to celebrate the journey and not just the “end game”, I’d say that suggests that a ton of focus will be put on mid game content. I think that whatever end game content ends up looking like, that there will be more and more of it added as the game matures and expands. Just my two coppers...
Itemization is very important to make the midgame desirable to participate in, even when players are higher lvl.
If items found in the mid lvl game have effects that are useful at the high end that we can't acquire elsewhere, players will go back to attain them.
We know VR is instating a "creative trivial loot code" where mobs may call in friends or despawn altogether if the players attacking them are to powerful. If those mobs are itemized well players will delevel through the use of the mentor system or progeny...or simply by creating an alt to acquire those items. If they have loot that is simply replaced at higher lvl no one will care.
Nephele said:Here are some of my own thoughts on the topic:
...snipped...
I wish I had written that!
I think an interesting aspect that made mid game fun was a game like Aion. It had many faults, which is why I don't play it anymore, but I was one of the top groups to reach max level on my server. I think in the racing charts I was like in 3rd or 4th. Anyways, what was really fun were the raid bosses that they had throughout leveling. We had a bunch of people in my brothers guild and when I spotted a raid target we would just gather 20 or so people together and down the boss, with a lot of deaths, but still downing them. The guild grew very quickly because people would see a bunch of our guild tags fighting the early level raid bosses and would want to join. So having raid bosses throughout leveling would be a fun addition to mid game. Especially if the leveling process is long, it would be fun to be able to raid mid game, and even early game.
I agree with pretty much everyones thoughts here. I do want to add that alot of this should be unveiled during alpha and beta when people are actually progressing through the levels as a community and getting the shape and feel for its linear progression.
I wouldn't mind seeing something like a mid-ranged level required quest or key to have to aim for like a checkpoint between levels 15-45. Or just something that you could work toward when not in a group or if you're a little burned out from grinding xp(and caught up on crafting) like EQ's epic 1.0 at lvl 46 for example. Gives you a feeling of only a few more levels until this "checkpoint" then are awarded something(either entrance to somewhere or item etc.) that will help you to continue to grow as a character.
Also, how would you feel if they added hell levels?
Spending development time designing an engaging mid game does nothing for a game. The beginning is what is going to attract the players, the end is what it going to keep them.
People that play alts are going to play alts regardless of how exciting or boring the leveling process is. This has been shown with everquest and world of warcraft.
Eventually players will out level the mid game and the development time you spent on it is gone. If you create an exciting end game (not just focused on raids and gearing, but also crafting and questing) you will keep people playing the game for a long time.
Creating tiered difficulty when it comes to raiding will also increase longevity. Most players should not be able to kill the final "boss" without significant practice and gearing. Make it difficult and challenging and the content will last.
Nephele said:Here are some of my own thoughts on the topic:
Combat
Ability Progression
Travel
Items and Equipment
Quests, Perception, and Story
Challenges
Agree with almost all of this but want to throw a curve ball in on the thought process and destroy a paradigm of MMOs while doing it. If a character is doing "the journey" and gearing up, abilitying up, skilling up, etc. Make the end game about just maintaining what you have gotten instead of getting those Uber lootz and those BiS raid items that we have been trained to think about from other games.
Here is the idea: The concept is simply a rent/lease concept where you use end game (not just raiding) to maintain your gear, your abilities, your skills, etc. If you are not conducting maintaining activity at "end game" of those earlier aquired "things" they deteriorate or fade. Source of this idea: Hotel rewards programs or Airlines rewards programs. Picking one as an example: As a Holiday Inn rewards member you can earn a Platinum membership after so many stays in a years time. You retain Platinum membership for up to the year after but if you suddenly stop renting hotel rooms you get the Platinum membership level removed. I am saying turn the concept of end game on its head- turn the loot piniata (WoW gearing model/ iLevels etc) off completely at upper mid game level and from that point maintain what you have aquired.
((Spending development time designing an engaging mid game does nothing for a game. The beginning is what is going to attract the players, the end is what it going to keep them.
People that play alts are going to play alts regardless of how exciting or boring the leveling process is. This has been shown with everquest and world of warcraft.
Eventually players will out level the mid game and the development time you spent on it is gone. If you create an exciting end game (not just focused on raids and gearing, but also crafting and questing) you will keep people playing the game for a long time.
Creating tiered difficulty when it comes to raiding will also increase longevity. Most players should not be able to kill the final "boss" without significant practice and gearing. Make it difficult and challenging and the content will last.))
Porygon - you may be underestimating how different Pantheon is intended to be from most current games. If we were discussing yet another WoW or SWTOR or Rift or EQ2 or LOTRO I would agree with you but Gods willing we are not.
Where what you call the endgame takes the average player *years* to get to not days or weeks the dynamic is otherwise than in these other games. VR has time even with a small studio to create new content faster than players can consume the content. The theme of the game is that we will be playing it to enjoy the "middle game" and if we do not enjoy that and just want to raid we probably will not be happy in Pantheon. VR's passion, to use an extremely overused word, will be for creating this middle game and future new content (far more focused on horizontal additions rather than unending level increases designed to keep raiders grinding for gear) and raids will be intended to be enjoyed a few times not grinded endlessly by bored players at maximum level.
Porygon said:Spending development time designing an engaging mid game does nothing for a game. The beginning is what is going to attract the players, the end is what it going to keep them.
People that play alts are going to play alts regardless of how exciting or boring the leveling process is. This has been shown with everquest and world of warcraft.
Eventually players will out level the mid game and the development time you spent on it is gone. If you create an exciting end game (not just focused on raids and gearing, but also crafting and questing) you will keep people playing the game for a long time.
Creating tiered difficulty when it comes to raiding will also increase longevity. Most players should not be able to kill the final "boss" without significant practice and gearing. Make it difficult and challenging and the content will last.
Just looking at statistics of various MMORPGs your statement is false. The majority of players in these games even in the new MMOs tend to end up somewhere in the mid level range. Most players did not hit max level in EQ. Most players did not hit max level in WoW (I know that sounds crazy but it's true). https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/blizzard-70-percent-of-new-wow-players-dont-get-past-level-10_1
Now if you were only talking about the small percentage of the playerbase that is hardcore, the portion I am a part of...sure. The guys that put 30+ hours per week into the game or more. But we are the tiny minority in these games. It is not the endgame that makes an MMORPG successful. EQ did not succeed because of the endgame, neither did WoW. Both of those games had an extremely rich low to mid level experience at launch, and WoW gained a lot of traction due to casual PvP appeal on top of that.
Ziegfried said:Just looking at statistics of various MMORPGs your statement is false. The majority of players in these games even in the new MMOs tend to end up somewhere in the mid level range. Most players did not hit max level in EQ. Most players did not hit max level in WoW (I know that sounds crazy but it's true). https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/blizzard-70-percent-of-new-wow-players-dont-get-past-level-10_1
Now if you were only talking about the small percentage of the playerbase that is hardcore, the portion I am a part of...sure. The guys that put 30+ hours per week into the game or more. But we are the tiny minority in these games. It is not the endgame that makes an MMORPG successful. EQ did not succeed because of the endgame, neither did WoW. Both of those games had an extremely rich low to mid level experience at launch, and WoW gained a lot of traction due to casual PvP appeal on top of that.
People really under estimate the amount of casual players in a MMO. Mid game is a problem designing content around because its basically a moving target but most analytics have shown that the majority of people who play MMOs are casuals who don't raid.
The comments above are great, especially what Nephele said.
A lot of games treat the mid levels as "level up level up level up" and little more. What I would like to see is a story progression not in the world (although that is nice, too), but for my character. Not just lore, not just a story, but building towards something -- a home, a town, a piece of epic gear, a mount, a *something* that I would continue to use or refer to for the rest of my time in Pantheon.
One interesting idea: a reputation, but one that goes beyond "200 out of a possible 250". Not just a score, but a reputation that's unique to my character. How NPCS in town react to me, what they're willing to sell me, could be related to the stories told about me.
Maybe it's an item with specific effects, and the effects I earn won't necessarily match the effects someone else earns.
It wouldn't be hard to come up with dozens of different possible ideas. Just something that is in some way unique to what I've been doing so far, something that doesn't get replaced 10 levels later.
This would just be one way to make those middle levels meaningful rather than something to rush through.