Dissolution said:You have stated that "Forcing players to retire a character doesn't align with the overarching story that has been shared." a few times when I have discussed this with you and in the past post. I would like you to elaborate on that statement a little more. I don’t see how it impacts the "overarching story" at all.
Overarching story was a bad choice of words but I will elaborate a bit on what I meant. Brad did a blog on Matchmaking awhile back and shared several "key points" on what the social experience should be like in Pantheon. While matchmaking isn't directly attached to Progeny, it is most definitely related. Onboarding is brought up multiple times and that's a big reason why I suggested earlier that the more people who participate in progeny, the better. We want the lower tiers of content to be healthy and vibrant years after launch and I think it would be highly beneficial to offer a flexible system that encourages players to re-adventure through the leveling process. Leveling up an alternate character most certainly qualifies as a means to accomplish this but there are plenty of players who have no interest in leveling up alts. There will always be a sizable chunk of the population that prefers to play their main character and allowing them to re-enter the pool of "adventurers that want to group with others and level up" is important. We don't want the population to grow stagnant and top-heavy and a feature like progeny can go a long way toward keeping the player pool for all tiers of content fresh and dynamic. Here are some of the key points discussed in that blog entry: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/183/matchmaking-systems-what-we-re-up-to-and-why-part-1
1) Lots of systems and tools, totally optional, there to be used by people who are interested in finding other people also interested, bringing them together, and in a way that really matters and that lasts (e.g. not about the session, or that particular evening, but about forging true relationships).
2) Taking a proactive stance unlike EQ which just threw you to the wolves so to speak. But also most certainly not some of the more 'modern' systems that just bring people together to do an instance and then, afterwards, those people spread about by the wind, no reason to speak during the instance, nor afterwards... no reason to really even talk much if at all. Total, even blatant disregard for shared experiences and how incredibly powerful and memorable, due to the way our brains are wired, they truly are.
3) Using positive reinforcement to reward players who go out of their way to help in the onboarding.
4) The commitment on our part that if we are making a game where most of the content is being built around grouping that we facilitate finding the group, keeping the group together, and making the group turn into relationships that last, that lead to a community, to shared experiences, etc.
5) The reliance on the community to assist with all of this -- we're all in this *together*. The dev team, the post-launch expansion and live teams, the forum moderators, *and* the community taking part and armed with the ability to further this onboarding imperative.
6) Probably the biggest challenge, and certainly what will be the most controversial: how we can have a hard core challenging game, sans handholding after the first few levels, an open world and sandbox over a theme park golden path style while at the same time providing many ways to both *find* a group, *keep* the group together (that session, and then beyond that, days later), and helping that group re-form... helping the group keep going if a key group member has to log out. On the surface and perhaps even at times when digging deeper I do know some in our community will find our efforts at odds with our commitments and the style of game we are all creating. So be it though. It is what it is. We will stick together and work through it.
Again, I understand that progeny isn't directly attached to matchmaking in general. At the same time, the above key points have been referenced in other blogs. "Shared Experience" is the name of the game with Pantheon. The game is being designed around player interdependence. Whether you're a low-level player or a high-level player, you're going to need friends when you go on adventures. The retirement aspect of the penalty really complicates this sense of interdependence. If you're a low-level player then you should want to see a healthy pool of available players to group with and it most certainly wouldn't hurt if you're lucky enough to join up with a few veterans who can take you under their wing. (The more who participate, the better.) If you're a max-level player then the stakes are probably as high as ever when it comes to tackling difficult content. Players will form teams and spend countless hours playing together, testing their boundaries, pushing their limits, evolving their synergy (helping with gear progression, unlocking spells, earning access to new areas) and executing their strategies. Players are going to rely on each other and the trust that builds from these relationships is part of the magic that makes these social games so sticky.
Since the game is being built around player/role interdependence, it seems extremely counterintuitive to "retire" a character. After spending all that time leveling up ... learning encounters, fulfilling your role in a team environment ... perhaps even taking on a specialized role in your guild ... how could it ever be a healthy situation to remove players from a role that played such a large part in the forging of their social bonds? It could lead to resentment. Players shouldn't be treated as a commodity and that's exactly why it would be so painful to see your trusted friends retire their character. For anything and everything that you had previously relied on them for, now you have a void. Beyond all that, I also want to consider some of the key points that have been directly associated with progeny:
1) It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
2) It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
3) It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
4) It helps us with balance
5) It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
6) It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
7) It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
Dissolution said:I know the dev's have stated that a goal with the progeny system would be replayability (and ultimately a consistent subscription base) and that you are of the opinion that if the progeny system required the retirement and re-levelling of a character that it would be a negative. Ultimately leading to a loss of subscriptions. I am gathering from you it is because the end game raiders and raiding guilds would have a difficult time utilizing the feature because it would conflict with their end game goals. To this I would say, that is precisely why the retirement and re-levelling would be essential to the success of the feature.
I disagree with that and feel as though it has the potential for exactly the opposite effect. Let me explain my reasoning.
The current formula of vertical progression and content progression in MMORPGs and the current problem with it is that it really only benefits the player with end game raiding and content in mind. The end game content tends to be focused on by a smaller percentage of the population, however they also tend to be the most consistent subscribers because they have achieved the most and invested a lot with their time investment paying off. The majority, not the minority of players do not ever see all of the content. This gives them a low investment justification for walking away from a subscription at any time.
It becomes difficult for the standard player, or player who starts later because the majority of end game raiding guilds are fully established. If they reach a point where they are interested in the end game they do not have the gear/stats to join an end game guild but find it difficult to get the gear/stats because they are not in an end game raiding guild. If this is an open world as well where end game content will be heavily contested, that will make it even more complicated for the standard player to get into one of those end game guilds.
Now, you introduce a progeny system promising an opportunity to gain additional power. In my opinion the retirement aspect not only offers the standard player an opportunity to close the gap in power but also forces the end game content player to make a choice. Continue to gain power through farming end game content or give up that opportunity for another one. Essentially having to sacrifice one power grab in order to progress in another. Not both.
The main purpose is to offer replay value to veteran players. When I read your post it seems like you would rather see Progeny be used as some sort of alternate path that allows normal players to close the gap with non-normal players. Whether you want to further classify that as casual/hardcore or non-raider/raider is up to you but it seems to be missing the mark. It's all about the replay value. It's about stimulating the economy. It's about keeping zones populated, content relevant, and bottlenecks alleviated. It's about horizontal progression. It's a catalyst for the intentional emergence of new players / veterans in both group availability and trade. Getting players to re-level is the main intent behind the feature. The more people who do it, the more each of the specific goals can be realized. If we look at the goals ... volume is obviously important. The more people who buy in, the better. Encouraging veterans to help with the onboarding process is crucial for Pantheon and while alts and mentoring can assist with this, progeny offers an additional layer of immense value that should not be ignored. Imagine if players had to delete their main character before they could roll an alt. That would greatly reduce the amount of people that would be willing to do it and thus be more problematic (in the context of what is being discussed) than beneficial.
Dissolution said:An indirect benefit on top of that is that if end game raiders begin cycling out of the end game content to utilize progeny, it begins to open rotating slots in the end game guilds to participate in that content.
I strongly disagree with your assessment that what you describe would in any way be a "benefit" in a game that places such tremendous value on shared experiences, player/role interdependence, and lasting friendships. Again, players shouldn't be treated as commodities. No serious guild wants to have "rotating slots" on their roster. That would be a disaster to manage. Progeny has always been the feature I have been most excited about but I would rather see it yanked from the game than have to deal with those issues. When I think of rotating slots I instantly think of dungeon finder. I get that they are completely separate things but I really want to hit home with that point. The idea of constantly replacing veteran members with new members because they want to participate in a feature specifically designed for veterans ... that is the stuff of nightmares.
" When I read your post it seems like you would rather see Progeny be used as some sort of alternate path that allows normal players to close the gap with non-normal players. Whether you want to further classify that as casual/hardcore or non-raider/raider is up to you but it seems to be missing the mark. It's all about the replay value. It's about stimulating the economy. It's about keeping zones populated, content relevant, and bottlenecks alleviated. It's about horizontal progression. It's a catalyst for the intentional emergence of new players / veterans in both group availability and trade. Getting players to re-level is the main intent behind the feature. The more people who do it, the more each of the specific goals can be realized. If we look at the goals ... volume is obviously important. The more people who buy in, the better. Encouraging veterans to help with the onboarding process is crucial for Pantheon and while alts and mentoring can assist with this, progeny offers an additional layer of immense value that should not be ignored. Imagine if players had to delete their main character before they could roll an alt. That would greatly reduce the amount of people that would be willing to do it and thus be more problematic (in the context of what is being discussed) than beneficial."
Just gonna copy paste because trying to quote parts of text is kos to me.
In a way, yes. I do see progeny as a potential alternative path to advance your character. Progeny, if just an additional tool that everyone gets at max with a toggle without any retirement of character is essentially just a boost in stats and broadens the gap even further.
I have a difficult time understanding why they would want to place a feature simply to keep veteran players occupied and not as a feature for both (#allsubsmatter) when it can easily be implemented as a means to expand on character progression for both. At a sacrifice.
If there is no sacrifice to gain this bonus, and you essentially just toggle the progeny mod on and off while going back to your max level character then how is it not just a bonus to a max level character? So you would only get those progeny boons while toggled in the progeny mode? (serious question as I can see you are passionate about your perspective but I'm fuzzy on that aspect of it) That feels a little gimmicky to me and sounds more like a mentor system, however, we don't really know what the vision is for the progeny system as is. I can't wrap my head around how to maintain the immersion with the ability to toggle this feature.
I will be honest and say somewhere between reading "progeny" and it reaching my brain it seems to change to mean "resurrection or ascension" system for me. I am aware this is likely an inaccurate interpretation of what they envision but an MMO nowadays needs to try to find a way to avoid only 1 path if they want replayability. Level to cap and grinding raid gear isnt something I am criticizing. If there is a good guild I like who raids or does end game content in my time zone that works for me I dont doubt I will participate. What I will criticize is if that is the only formula for character progression at cap. I see (what I see as a resurrection system) as a means to avoid pigeon holing the player in accepting this single formula to progress. Which ultimately leads to a swinging door of subs in/subs out because everyone knows that formula already. I wont say its tired, because I do enjoy it myself, but I have been in positions where it wasnt feasible for me to participate in that aspect of the game and its hard not to lose interest if character progression just ends at level cap.
That would greatly reduce the amount of people that would be willing to do it and thus be more problematic (in the context of what is being discussed) than beneficial."
I understand that, but if its just a reward without any kind of risk or sacrifice then there is no real value to it either. I've played more than a few games with tons of QoL features that are handed out for free because people didnt like inconvenience or difficulty. It wasn't that cool.
I strongly disagree with your assessment that what you describe would in any way be a "benefit" in a game that places such tremendous value on shared experiences, player/role interdependence, and lasting friendships. Again, players shouldn't be treated as commodities. No serious guild wants to have "rotating slots" on their roster. That would be a disaster to manage. Progeny has always been the feature I have been most excited about but I would rather see it yanked from the game than have to deal with those issues. When I think of rotating slots I instantly think of dungeon finder. I get that they are completely separate things but I really want to hit home with that point. The idea of constantly replacing veteran members with new members because they want to participate in a feature specifically designed for veterans ... that is the stuff of nightmares.
I can understand that being a headache trying to manage as a guild leader, but would also argue that seeing the players as spots in a raiding roster also treats players as a commodity. I would also argue that a serious raiding guild would be benefiting from the end game content already anyway.
All of this is just theory and healthy debate. Im still very excited to see what they have in mind, and like you would rather see it scrapped than become a sh#tshow.
I don't agree with everything you are saying on this, but I do see your point of view in several areas. Undoubtedly if VR decides to implement a system like this THEY will have more than a few headaches trying to deconflict it.
I would just hate to see this as just another system that instead of having the potential to offer something new, ends up just becoming a new flavor of the same old ---- offering an easy stat boost, or ability or whatever without the need for it to be earned.
We're just theory crafting here in good fun Dev's.
Dissolution said:If there is no sacrifice to gain this bonus, and you essentially just toggle the progeny mod on and off while going back to your max level character then how is it not just a bonus to a max level character?
I don't follow your logic here. You do realize that leveling a character to max is an incredible sacrifice of time and effort, right?
Dissolution said:So you would only get those progeny boons while toggled in the progeny mode? (serious question as I can see you are passionate about your perspective but I'm fuzzy on that aspect of it) That feels a little gimmicky to me and sounds more like a mentor system, however, we don't really know what the vision is for the progeny system as is.
We don't really know the "how" behind progeny but we most certainly know the "why." The reason I have such a passionate perspective about this is that I have been able to enjoy a world that had a progeny-like feature, and where all of the associated benefits were realized in magnificent fashion. As others have previously suggested on this thread, progeny is another word for "remort." Richard Bartle explains what remort is here: http://mud.co.uk/dvw/whatisremort.html
The subclass system from FFXI absolutely qualifies as a "remort" system according to the description shared by Richard Bartle. It was arguably the most game-defining feature for FFXI and again, that is why I have been so excited about the potential for progeny. I know the impact it has on the world, on new players, on the economy, on veteran players, on the relevance of content, replay value, and the alleviation of bottlenecks. FFXI is the only game I have played that offered a remort like feature and there was a night and day difference between that MMO experience and most others.
Dissolution said:I understand that, but if its just a reward without any kind of risk or sacrifice then there is no real value to it either. I've played more than a few games with tons of QoL features that are handed out for free because people didnt like inconvenience or difficulty. It wasn't that cool.
Again, I really don't understand your perspective. Think about how much time it takes to level a character to max. Every minute spent on that re-level process is a sacrifice of "time" that could have otherwise been spent at max-level. This isn't a matter of inconvenience or difficulty -- the retirement component is antithetical to allowing players to build lasting relationships and keeping them together. It's horrible for communities built on trust and interdependence. We want lasting/meaningful relationships, not musical chairs.
Dissolution said:I can understand that being a headache trying to manage as a guild leader, but would also argue that seeing the players as spots in a raiding roster also treats players as a commodity. I would also argue that a serious raiding guild would be benefiting from the end game content already anyway.
It's not about seeing players as spots on a roster, it's about harmony and having a community. You suggested that it would be an indirect benefit if guilds had "rotating slots" -- I was using your definition and context. My stance is predicated around the idea that players are much more than that. Again ... we want lasting relationships. We want to build trust and rapport. We want to help each other with long-term progression and avoid "rotating slots" at all costs. That is why I said it is the stuff of nightmares. Most guilds appreciate having a sense of community, harmony, continuity, and trust. The last thing any guild leader ever wants to deal with is a game feature aimed toward veterans that sabotages relationships and interdependence. Players don't grow on trees. When a guild spends countless hours helping one of their members with anything and everything they might need, it's downright obnoxious to think that those players would be encouraged by game design to retire and be replaced by player X or whoever is next in line in the rotating slots fiasco. I don't play games to get stressed about managing relationships. To think that this scenario could come into play to help "close the gap" between normal and non-normal players ... yikes. That isn't what progeny is meant for. It's meant for veteran players. It's supposed to be prestigious in it's own way, not an alternate path of power for those who can't raid.
Dissolution said:I would just hate to see this as just another system that instead of having the potential to offer something new, ends up just becoming a new flavor of the same old ---- offering an easy stat boost, or ability or whatever without the need for it to be earned.
At this point I can only ask that you read the PM I sent you. If things still don't make sense please take me up on my offer to chat in Discord. This "easy stat boost" and "ability or whatever without the need for it to be earned" narrative is basically the complete opposite of what I have been suggesting.
oneADseven said:Dissolution said:If there is no sacrifice to gain this bonus, and you essentially just toggle the progeny mod on and off while going back to your max level character then how is it not just a bonus to a max level character?
I don't follow your logic here. You do realize that leveling a character to max is an incredible sacrifice of time and effort, right?
Dissolution said:So you would only get those progeny boons while toggled in the progeny mode? (serious question as I can see you are passionate about your perspective but I'm fuzzy on that aspect of it) That feels a little gimmicky to me and sounds more like a mentor system, however, we don't really know what the vision is for the progeny system as is.
We don't really know the "how" behind progeny but we most certainly know the "why." The reason I have such a passionate perspective about this is that I have been able to enjoy a world that had a progeny-like feature, and where all of the associated benefits were realized in magnificent fashion. As others have previously suggested on this thread, progeny is another word for "remort." Richard Bartle explains what remort is here: http://mud.co.uk/dvw/whatisremort.html
The subclass system from FFXI absolutely qualifies as a "remort" system according to the description shared by Richard Bartle. It was arguably the most game-defining feature for FFXI and again, that is why I have been so excited about the potential for progeny. I know the impact it has on the world, on new players, on the economy, on veteran players, on the relevance of content, replay value, and the alleviation of bottlenecks. FFXI is the only game I have played that offered a remort like feature and there was a night and day difference between that MMO experience and most others.
Dissolution said:I understand that, but if its just a reward without any kind of risk or sacrifice then there is no real value to it either. I've played more than a few games with tons of QoL features that are handed out for free because people didnt like inconvenience or difficulty. It wasn't that cool.
Again, I really don't understand your perspective. Think about how much time it takes to level a character to max. Every minute spent on that re-level process is a sacrifice of "time" that could have otherwise been spent at max-level. This isn't a matter of inconvenience or difficulty -- the retirement component is antithetical to allowing players to build lasting relationships and keeping them together. It's horrible for communities built on trust and interdependence. We want lasting/meaningful relationships, not musical chairs.
Dissolution said:I can understand that being a headache trying to manage as a guild leader, but would also argue that seeing the players as spots in a raiding roster also treats players as a commodity. I would also argue that a serious raiding guild would be benefiting from the end game content already anyway.
It's not about seeing players as spots on a roster, it's about harmony and having a community. You suggested that it would be an indirect benefit if guilds had "rotating slots" -- I was using your definition and context. My stance is predicated around the idea that players are much more than that. Again ... we want lasting relationships. We want to build trust and rapport. We want to help each other progress and avoid "rotating slots" at all costs. That is why I said it is the stuff of nightmares. Most guilds appreciate having a sense of community, harmony, continuity, and trust. The last thing any guild leader ever wants to deal with is a game feature aimed toward veterans that sabotages relationships and interdependence. Players don't grow on trees. When a guild spends countless hours helping one of their members with anything and everything they might need, it's downright obnoxious to think that those players would be encouraged by game design to retire and be replaced by player X or whoever is next in line in the rotating slots fiasco. I don't play games to get stressed about managing relationships. To think that this scenario could come into play to help "close the gap" between normal and non-normal players ... yikes. That isn't what progeny is meant for. It's meant for veteran players. It's supposed to be prestigious in it's own way, not an alternate path of power for those who can't raid.
Dissolution said:I would just hate to see this as just another system that instead of having the potential to offer something new, ends up just becoming a new flavor of the same old ---- offering an easy stat boost, or ability or whatever without the need for it to be earned.
At this point I can only ask that you read the PM I sent you. If things still don't make sense please take me up on my offer to chat in Discord. This "easy stat boost" and "ability or whatever without the need for it to be earned" narrative is basically the complete opposite of what I have been suggesting.
I think the disconnest is i do not understand how you envison the mechanics of this working. FFXI was never a game that caught my attention so I do not know how it worked in that context.
If in your vision you are relevelling how are we disconnecting on the concept of retirement? I had read the link and it was very interesting, however, all speculative as is our discussion here as well since we have no idea what will be involved with it yet.
I'm not poking at you, but even in that link I never got a clear idea of how you see the mechanics of this. I read something along the lines of toggling I thought, but maybe that wasnt you.
No worries at all, I appreciate having the chance to talk with you about this stuff. It's nice to see new members in the community poking around and asking the same stuff I was a couple years ago. Send me that message in Discord or PM me your username and I'd be more than happy to explain things further.
oneADseven said:No worries at all, I appreciate having the chance to talk with you about this stuff. It's nice to see new members in the community poking around and asking the same stuff I was a couple years ago. Send me that message in Discord or PM me your username and I'd be more than happy to explain things further.
Maybe I'm geriatric, but ive never started the whole discord thing yet. I know its what the kids do these days.
Lmao j/k...only reason I havent taken you up on the offer though.
Please let me extend an offer to join the unofficial Pantheon Community Discord channel then! Here is a link: https://discordapp.com/invite/m8aUZvA
It's a pretty awesome tool that a bunch of folks are using to stay connected and discuss the game.
I am not sold on this system, to say that the offspring will have a better statistical value than the main one invests much time with is ridiculous to even consider, there are definitely better ways to keep the middle population and lower end population vibrant, such as adding bonuses for exp, or harvesting or any other number of ways based on the zone population or ammount of players needed for a set period and lvl range. If in one year there is a need of level 15-35 players, then mayybe an exp boost for alts staritng from lvl 1 -15 and only given to those that have a maxed lvl character for example.
This would be easy to apply without contravertial gimmics or experimental designs. Put the progeny system on a test server after the game launches so it can be properly tested and if needed then implemented live a year after the game launches.
No need for extra work or contraversy and it will easily cover the main points oneADseven pointed out (not picking on you bud but im gonna paste because im lazy.) :)
1) It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
2) It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
3) It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
4) It helps us with balance
5) It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
6) It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
7) It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
And most of all it will not undermine your main character and the work you put into it.
Anyone who's new to this idea, or the forum etc. and looking for answers on this topic oneADseven shot me a link Im finding incredibly interesting regarding this:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak
Nice big post from Brad (Aradune) in there that gives a bit of a glimpse as to where their head is or was at on it.
Tigersin said:Sicario said:In a fantasy game where I'm supposed to be able to have as much freedom to define my characters as possible/create an identity for them (within reason), I hate the idea of systems that force things that are typically pretty damn big decisions in RL. I don't want my characters having children, or being related to each other, or being bound by some magical connection, etc. etc. They are all separate, with their own backgrounds and stories. More information on this sytem will be greatly appreciated, but I would like to state now that I really hope whatever they end up deciding will avoid making our characters have "offspring" or "retiring/dying" or whatever to gain an advantage. If it's an advantage that is in any way meaningful, it will become a forced expectation.
Valid concerns that, at this point, will match up with the quoted response below.
"We have explained parts of this already but this isn't a forced system, you can ignore it and play the game without worrying. We have said the rewards/bonuses for using the Progeny system will not be game breaking, meaning - you will not suffer in a group against someone who has used the Progeny system if you haven't..."
For now, there is nothing to rally against. Let's see what we hear about it in the future.
That quote from them strikes me as odd, and I'm skeptical of it. Here's why: if you are guaranteed to not suffer in a group against someone who has used the progeny system, it means that you won't be gaining any combat stat bonuses or other benefits that would make you more appealing in a group; if that's the case, then there's not a meaningful reason to partake in the progeny system to begin with, so what's the point? Keep in mind, any bonus to stats/combat ability, even what seems insignificant, will become an expectation.
I'm also not sure what benefit there is in having a progeny system in place to encourage people to start over (and thus re-populate lower level zones, stimulate the economy, etc. etc.) rather than incentivizing alt creation, which accomplishes the same thing and provides more variety. I highly doubt that people who wouldn't play alts to begin with are going to find something appealing in the progeny system (unless it's forced upon them because the bonuses actually turn out to be meaningful), so this system doesn't seem as impactful to me as some here think it will be. I'd much rather spend my time creating an alt of a different race and class and providing those same benefits to the game rather than recycling one character over and over again.
I hear you, Sicario. They realize there's a chance it can't happen and said they'll scrap it if it doesn't work well. So if they've informed us they're willing to scrap it, I feel we should shouldn't be against them testing it. I can't understand how this system will help the game either but, based on what we've been told, it seems important to VR.
DracoKalen said:Yeah, I first played that kind of system back in my MUDD days, they called it reincarnation.
They still do, just ask Dungeons & Dragons Online.
That's all progeny boils down to - some version of reincarnation. DDO gives a long list of compelling reasons to reincarnate, and given what we have heard so far, PRF progeny is not all that compelling. Everything is hazy and vague right now, so there's no real way to get bummed or excited about it.
((That quote from them strikes me as odd, and I'm skeptical of it. Here's why: if you are guaranteed to not suffer in a group against someone who has used the progeny system, it means that you won't be gaining any combat stat bonuses or other benefits that would make you more appealing in a group; if that's the case, then there's not a meaningful reason to partake in the progeny system to begin with, so what's the point? Keep in mind, any bonus to stats/combat ability, even what seems insignificant, will become an expectation.))
My reaction as well when I reread the quote.
Perhaps the thought was that there would be non-combat benefits which some people might consider important. Ability to change race to one not otherwise available for the class, titles, fancy nametag, exclusive mount if the game has mounts (dying nag of the progenized?) etc. All entirely irrelevant to me but there are some that care about these things.
Perhaps the thought was that there would be combat benefits which would be important to the cumpulsive min-maxer but not large enough that a reasonable person forming a group would *require* them. Of course not all people forming groups are reasonable which is your basic point I believe.
But so what if groups demand multiple past lives or whatever? Is that really any different than guilds who demanded you had an Enduring Breath item, JBoots, a complete set of maps, all th dragon ring teeth in Velious, a 200 in swimming and 255 in all stats? Players will form their associations however they choose, so why limit a mechanic tha essentially makes people want to play/stay subbed to your game forever?
Venjenz said:But so what if groups demand multiple past lives or whatever? Is that really any different than guilds who demanded you had an Enduring Breath item, JBoots, a complete set of maps, all th dragon ring teeth in Velious, a 200 in swimming and 255 in all stats? Players will form their associations however they choose, so why limit a mechanic tha essentially makes people want to play/stay subbed to your game forever?
These are pretty much my thoughts as well. There will be guilds out there who require you to play a certain race, or groups that require you to be a certain class. If someone really wanted to they could demand nudes before they would be willing to add you to their friend list. Players can require you to join voice, read class guides, meet attendance requirements ... all of these things are dynamic. The difference between progeny and all of that other stuff is that it actually affects the server health and economy in a positive way. If we ever get to the point where some guilds require players to be a specific progeny generation in order to join, I don't view that as a bad thing. The more people who participate in the system, the more effective it will be.
Venjenz said:But so what if groups demand multiple past lives or whatever? Is that really any different than guilds who demanded you had an Enduring Breath item, JBoots, a complete set of maps, all th dragon ring teeth in Velious, a 200 in swimming and 255 in all stats? Players will form their associations however they choose, so why limit a mechanic tha essentially makes people want to play/stay subbed to your game forever
Because it's not a mechanic that guarantees that at all, and its same benefits can be achieved via other methods that come without the eventual baggage that very well may accompany the progeny system. If equivalent benefits can be achieved by, say, incentivizing alts, then that's a much better solution than one that will eventually lead to extra community expectations upon other players.
Remort is a proven mechanic going back to MUD's. Here is an excerpt from Richard Bartle: (Bartle is one of the more recognized game researchers with particular expertise in the MMO field)
"Those that are willing to play your game long enough to earn the right of a remort will often continue playing longer and have more loyalty to your game. After all, they've worked hard to get where they are!"
Is that a guarantee? Nope. Does Richard Bartle know what he's talking about? Yep. It's a proven mechanic that goes back to the old days where accomplishments were hard earned. The notion that a mechanic shouldn't exist because it would eventually lead to community expectations is hogwash. The fact that the game has a limited hotbar can also lead to expectations. If an AA system is ever implemented, that will lead to expectations. Some players are going to expect you to have situational gear, access keys, epic weapons, exotic spells or qualifying acclimation scores. What is the big deal? There is nothing wrong with community expectations. In fact, it's been stated many times that reputation will matter in this game. Without expectations ... reputation means nothing, unless we want to remember people because of their silly name. If you want other players to associate "prestigious" with your reputation then you need to go off and progress through the feature that is designed to offer prestige to veteran players. I hate playing alts. Been there done that in many games and every one of those characters felt hollow and soulless despite me spending significant time on them. There are a bunch of different ways that progeny can be implemented but if it ends up being anything like what I have experienced in the past, it will probably be my favorite feature in the game. Nail progeny and my subscriptions will be annual rather than monthly.
oneADseven said:Remort is a proven mechanic going back to MUD's. Here is an excerpt from Richard Bartle: (Bartle is one of the more recognized game researchers with particular expertise in the MMO field)
" Those that are willing to play your game long enough to earn the right of a remort will often continue playing longer and have more loyalty to your game. After all, they've worked hard to get where they are!"
It is also a mechanic that was omited in modern mmo's for a reason, it is only going to promote lvl races to the max and then grouping only with people in the same mindset. Completely destroying the philosophical view that it would be good for lower and mid level players. Now if there are no statistical bonuses granted to the alts then I am for it, aside from exp bonuses or passing down of items, houses etc, like a will for example.
If you want your main dead and have a statue or city named after you great but that should have no bearing on any other alt made.
People are going to rush to max level and group with like-minded players regardless of whether or not progeny exists. Having an open/contested world is going to lead to that so we need to accept reality. As far as progeny destroying the philosophical view that it would also benefit low-mid players ... that is patently false. It improves the available player pool that they can group with, the supply/demand of the economy tier they belong to, and allows them to find their feet with veteran players. If a given subset of progeny-rolling players decides that they will only play with other progeny-rolling players, that is a social construct. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but that is their choice to make. If you assume that everybody or most people would have that mentality, it is what it is. I'm not going to try and change your mind about that but when I reminisce about my personal experience with a remort feature, that isn't how things worked. I remember being that newb player who joined a game years after it launched and having a veteran playing with me in my very first group. You start removing the opportunity for social constructs to exist and you get a socially engineered experience where nothing matters. Everybody gets in line at their favorite MMO concession stand and gets their ticket stamped to go on the next ride. No height requirements or weight limits. I'm not really sure how you envision the feature working Yaladan but the typical remort doesn't involve "alts" -- you play the same character. When you start over, you have the same faction, same completed quests, languages, etc.
My understanding was that pantheon progeny had nothing to do with already established remort systems so any association with existing mechanics is quaint, but non-applicable to Pantheon.
Here is a quote from Kilsin: https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/6atms6/the_progeny_system/
"If you want to get an idea of how this kind of system works and why it is used, feel free to - with an open mind - research into the old Remort system from MUDs, it has been around for years and can be tailored to fit into any game successfully.
One of the main benefits is helping to repopulated low to mid level content as people Progeny and level back up, keeping cities, towns and dungeon relevant and stopping the bottleneck at end game with ghost town low to mid level content making it almost impossible for new players to get a group in a group based game.
There are many other reasons and keeping in mind we will balance it to not be OP or give too much of an advantage, most likely no combat advantage at all but all of this will be tested before going live so we can get feedback, until then, there isn't much more I can say."
I kept an open mind and researched the remort system from MUD's. It was exactly what I thought it was. According to Google, this is the authority link when it comes to researching and trying to understand what remort is: http://mud.co.uk/dvw/whatisremort.html
oneADseven said:It improves the available player pool that they can group with, the supply/demand of the economy tier they belong to, and allows them to find their feet with veteran players.
So even if it is a main character starting again, most people are going to redo the content again to max lvl with the same guild or people they always hung around with in a rush to max again. There are very few cases such as your experience usually cetered around a dying game or an empty server. You actually think that most people are going to max out and start from scratch with the same character to go look for noobies to help? Most people that are hard core games would like this system but for the casual gamer...I don't know man, people tent to be pretty self centered if you give them the tools and environment for it. There are things they have to iron out and explain as an insentive and justification for such system. Don't take me wrong if something is implemented or not its not a deal breaker or anything, just playing the devil's advocate on this.
Not of my taste but it is what is is, for now we will bicker like grumpy old men :)
FFXI wasn't a dying game when I started playing it. It was after the first or second expansion ... the "golden years" as referred to by many. I really don't understand why people think that everybody who participates would have some sort of elitist mentality. How is this any different than starting an alt? If a max-level player starts an alt they will probably have items and currency to help get their alt character going. Does this mean that they will only group with others who do the same? It doesn't exactly work like that. Pickings can be slim at times which is why it's important that the feature is actually utilized by the community. If anybody thinks it's a good idea to sit around spamming "Level 20 3'rd Generation Progeny Warrior LFM -- please only contact me if you are also 3'rd generation are higher." -- you do that and you're going to be sitting there doing nothing for extended periods of time and probably be viewed in a less than favorable light by the community. (Reputation matters!) People will group up where they can and when they can. They have already been through the leveling journey at least once ... odds are, they will be more prepared/experienced by default and be happy to fill their group up with the roles that are necessary in a group-centric / role-interdependent game. Believe it or not ... there are plenty of decent people out there who would be happy to group up with a newb and teach them the ropes.