I've done searches within and without the forums regarding the progeny system and the best I can seem to find is its basic summary and that it is still tentative whether it will be in game (as of appx. 11 months ago). Does anyone have any links regarding more information on this or whether or not its still a "thing"?
A part of me is fanboy excited about a feature like this while at the same time I see many potential risks at it's impementation. I have thought about this concept, or a concept like it since I started MMO's. Before I even spout off I just want to double tap and check if I should allow myself to get excited, if there is any current information on it to get up to date or if its been *&^%canned.
The only, sort of, official info we have received on progeny is that there will be a limit to the number of times a player is able to gain benefits by using the progeny system.
We will see how it goes. To me it feels a lot like something that might get added post release, if at all, the way it has been discussed...or lack of discussion. People seem to have strong feelings towards it. I have learned by trying to discuss it that most people don't have experience with this type of system so there is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding it.
philo said:The only, sort of, official info we have received on progeny is that there will be a limit to the number of times a player is able to gain benefits by using the progeny system.
We will see how it goes. To me it feels a lot like something that might get added post release, if at all, the way it has been discussed...or lack of discussion. People seem to have strong feelings towards it. I have learned by trying to discuss it that most people don't have experience with this type of system so there is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding it.
Aww, would be cool to have that character that has an impressively deep progeny line. I am dissapointed by the limit, but in all honesty I had a difficult time understanding how they were going to manage that and balance it at all. If you are only allowed to do it once or twice I see that long term becoming a prerequisite to have it maxed before being taken realistically by end game guilds. That will just create a greater divide for players starting later on.
Additionally, if you leave it open it gives an opportunity for those who dont want to farm end game content to offset those gear bonuses through progeny character progression so they dont get left behind and can exceed the average progeny numbers to try and stay relevant without the BiS gear. They still have to earn the power, just in an alternate fashion and at a cost of restarting over and over again to get it.
Lots of deconfliction required but I still love the idea and think it would absolutely be worth the effort to make it work.
I am just excited to see what Brad has in his head. I seem to remember a thread about this somewhere. Think it ended up in a locked fight thread.
I am not going to stress about it cause like Philo said. it could be a post launch thing. or it could end up scrapped all together. ( i really doubt it will get scrapped)
Truth is, since brad won't spill the beans, none of us know what he has in his head. After seeing this last stream, I am just happy to see the game progressing. wish it wasn't 2 years away.
Flapp said:I am just excited to see what Brad has in his head. I seem to remember a thread about this somewhere. Think it ended up in a locked fight thread.
I am not going to stress about it cause like Philo said. it could be a post launch thing. or it could end up scrapped all together. ( i really doubt it will get scrapped)
Truth is, since brad won't spill the beans, none of us know what he has in his head. After seeing this last stream, I am just happy to see the game progressing. wish it wasn't 2 years away.
I feel you on that, but it least it gives me an opportunity to divvy out cash for the alpha in installments lol.
The idea has so much potential.
I can only imagine sitting in a common area and seeing the end game guy whos sporting the glowing swords of who knows what with the helm of too much time spent, and then a level 5 run by with a little roman numeral X on his nameplate showing hes "reincarnated" 10 times. 2 completely different types of impressive obtainable by 2 completely different types of content focused players.
Kinda sounds like they will cap that to much less but a guy can dream.
We talk a little bit about Progeny in the Dev Roundable which I will release to you guys later this week, it isn't much but Chris touches on it while answering another question but it is one of those systems that we just aren't ready to discuss while we work on other things.
It is exciting and I am looking forward to it too but detailed info on the Progeny system will come further down the track, I promise! :)
Thanks Kils.
Also, in one of the more recent progeny discussions Brad mentioned that restarting your character might not be necessary.
Again, we will see how it goes. I feel like that negates much of the benefit of having the progeny system in the first place but, I'm sure they will work it out.
Going to share an excerpt from the FAQ thread I put together a while back:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8530/frequently-asked-questions
51) What details are available regarding the progeny feature?
Excerpt from "The Pantheon Difference" https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
Progeny System
"Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things)."
Quote from Aradune (08/23/2016) https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak
"I think the 'retirement' part is the hardest part of this system to wrap one’s head around and to accept. In fact, having to permanently retire a high level character in order to create alts with progeny bonuses may be asking too much. While we're not putting a lot of time into the progeny system right now (it's something that is planned several months down the road, after we actually have high level characters, have experienced high level combat, etc.), if there's anything that pokes a sizable hole in the system it's the retirement part, and what that truly means or might mean.
We have to first go back to the purpose for such a system -- one of its primary goals is to reward a player who has leveled up a character to max level by encouraging him to create alts and experience the game again, albeit from a different perspective, and ideally in such a way that feels different and new enough that it’s a lot of fun. It's about replayability. It's also about pride -- you could adventure with your augmented alts and people would recognize that you were someone who has already achieved great things in Pantheon. And I think these are great goals -- recognizing and rewarding long time players while also giving them reason to keep playing can't be a bad thing.
But then how does it actually work? Well first, we haven't said much, again because this system is not even close to being set in stone, and, as mentioned, one that doesn't have to be fully fleshed out in the near term. So I'm going to speculate and theory-craft a bit -- yes, that means I'm not announcing anything officially.
First, does such a system really require that the older character be permanently retired? I remember my earlier characters and how proud I was of them -- I didn't log them in very often because I was more interested in leveling up my newer characters -- but I did log them in occasionally to show them off and perhaps even participate in some adventure. If I couldn't do this because my character was inaccessible, how would that make me feel? Probably not so good.
But if the higher level player isn't retired, is it fair to allow that person to create alts with some added benefits? I honestly don’t see where it’s not – if you do, please speak up. So for the sake of this discussion, I'm willing to remove the retirement part and think about it for a while -- is there something I'm missing?
One of the other questions that comes up is will there be any restrictions as to who these augmented alts can be? If, for example, they are the offspring of a mighty human warrior and a beautiful ashen elf wizard, then it wouldn't make any sense if that alt could be any race or class, especially race. Does this restriction add to the system? Perhaps it does -- if you want all sorts of augmented alts that are a variety of races and classes, then perhaps you need to bring multiple characters up to this level necessary to use the Progeny system. Maybe that's good and encourages even more replayability.
And the last big question that keeps coming up is 'just what are these augmentations, these advantages?' And will they create an imbalance? Will these alts be crazy powerful and damage the balance and fun of the lower level game? Well, that's the easiest one to answer: no, of course we couldn't let that happen. I'm confident that whatever these advantages might be that they could be measurably beneficial, truly noticeable, yet not so powerful that balance is harmed or that nobody will want to group with regular characters.
Anyway, that's pretty much what I wanted to bring up in hopes that people keep talking about this proposed system and how it might work (or how it might not). The big question being, of course, is retirement really a necessary part of the system? It's certainly a big negative to many people and I have to ask, what is the positive? What does the system lose or what breaks or what doesn't make sense if the original character is still around and playable? Or, if a sacrifice must be made, perhaps it’s not about retiring a high level character but rather sacrificing powerful items in a ritual that results in their alts (offspring) having special advantages. This could be a great item sink, and while it would sting to lose some great items, you still get to play your old character if you want to.
It is interesting that this system is brought up as often as it is. I didn’t expect it to be. It’s an old MUD concept that I’ve wanted to bring to MMOs for some time as I’m always thinking about ways to encourage and reward long term play, about ways to keep people playing an MMO even years later. Really, that’s all the system is: a way to reward players who've put a lot of time into the game and who might want to experience the game again, as an alt, but would be even further incentivized to do so if that alt had some small but noticeable advantages. It's like a rite of passage and a recognition and a measure of respect shown to older players. Everything else is just detail, context, and flavor."
Quote from Kilsin (01/23/2017) https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3056/the-progeny-system-what-say-you
"We have explained parts of this already but this isn't a forced system, you can ignore it and play the game without worrying. We have said the rewards/bonuses for using the Progeny system will not be game breaking, meaning - you will not suffer in a group against someone who has used the Progeny system if you haven't, people are just wildly throwing assumptions and opinions around without actually knowing how the system works, but to explain why we think it will be good for Pantheon very briefly and for context (and this isn't information for people to cherry pick and continue arguing over, it is some very general reasons behind why a system like this can be very good for our game)
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system.
We have stated that we will scrap it if it doesn't work well, but for it to have a chance, we need to get more work done on it and then let people actually test it out first hand, because so far the discussion is based on assumptions and opinions on something with such little information at hand and that is just absurd.
We really need to relax and give a few topics like this a chance before casting such negative assumptions over them or trying to troubleshoot problems that don't yet exist. Let us get the Progeny system to a working state so we can implement everything we have in mind for it and then when it is time to test it (along with all of the other systems, mechanics and features that work in sync with the Progeny system) you folks can then give us your feedback, we will be open to discussing it more at that time, but for now, people assuming and basing opinions on such little information on this topic is pointless."
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak ;(Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3466/an-alternative-to-progeny ;(Open)
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2580/remort-ability ;(Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6732/progeny-titles ;(Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3056/the-progeny-system-what-say-you ;(Closed)
There are indeed many misconceptions about what the progeny system is designed to do. I highlighted a section of Brad's quote which summarizes the main goal behind the feature. As he previously suggested, permanent retirement is probably the most sizable hole in the early concept. There was a lot of pushback about permanently retiring a character, especially in a game like this where it should take a really long time to level up. When you consider that, and then this other quote from Brad, things start to make a bit more sense:
"If the plan is to implement an interesting but shallow system you have to ask yourself a bunch of questions. Will most people partake in this? Will most people enjoy it? How long will they enjoy it for? How long would it take us to implement and how many people on the team?
That all gets weighed together and, quite often, if it's not a system that has legs... has enough depth that people will be enjoying it for a long time and that it will appeal to most of your players, then it's just not worth doing. Time is better and more wisely and effectively spent elsewhere. That's why I was emphasizing how important the depth and longevity of new systems are."
This topic has been debated many times and on many different threads. I feel pretty strongly that permanent retirement isn't going to be attached to progeny because it would probably end up compromising the feature altogether. As someone who has experience with a feature like this, at least in the broader context of what it's trying to accomplish and how it's trying to do it, I will say that this is the differentiator that I am more excited about than any other. The impact that this kind of system has on the economy, the relevance of content, intentional emergence between new players and veterans, replayability/prestige ... it's monumental. It is absolutely worthy of being dubbed as a major differentiator for Pantheon and I'm really looking forward to seeing how this feature shapes up.
One of the major benefits of progeny is that it alleviates the high end bottleneck when a large portion of your player base is at max level.
If players aren't restarting their character I don't see how that helps?
If players can log into their high lvl character when a raid mob is going to spawn or when a camp becomes available etc., it isn't decreasing the bottleneck. We would be missing out on one of the main reasons to have the progeny system in the first place.
Philo - you are not necessarily wrong but even without retirement of the progenized character I see a few benefits in reducing the so-called bottleneck. Which won't be an issue for most of us for many months or even years if things work as planned.
Firstly some of the players who are compulsive about playing just one character and having it the best it can possibly be probably will treat it as a "temporary" character since it will not be the best it can be - the successor character with whatever advantages progeny gives will be. They are unlikely to delete it - they will keep it on call for when friends or guildmates need help but they won't log it on for the purpose of improving it further.
Secondly, since new characters will be able to do things after progenization that could not be done before (otherwise the system will be meaningless) it will be an encouragement to people that may not otherwise have run multiple characters to start new ones. This will reduce the time spent on the progenized character and reduce complaints that there is "nothing to do" since new alts will have lots to do.
dorotea said:Philo - you are not necessarily wrong but even without retirement of the progenized character I see a few benefits in reducing the so-called bottleneck. Which won't be an issue for most of us for many months or even years if things work as planned.
Firstly some of the players who are compulsive about playing just one character and having it the best it can possibly be probably will treat it as a "temporary" character since it will not be the best it can be - the successor character with whatever advantages progeny gives will be. They are unlikely to delete it - they will keep it on call for when friends or guildmates need help but they won't log it on for the purpose of improving it further.
Secondly, since new characters will be able to do things after progenization that could not be done before (otherwise the system will be meaningless) it will be an encouragement to people that may not otherwise have run multiple characters to start new ones. This will reduce the time spent on the progenized character and reduce complaints that there is "nothing to do" since new alts will have lots to do.
There is a misunderstanding there. Characters in these type if systems are restarted. Not deleted. I know it was explained poorly originally.
None of what you said makes sense doro if you have played these type of reincarnation/ascension type of systems before?
I don't want to stir up the debate again. Ill pm you a better explanation in a little bit.
oneADseven said:There are indeed many misconceptions about what the progeny system is designed to do. I highlighted a section of Brad's quote which summarizes the main goal behind the feature. As he previously suggested, permanent retirement is probably the most sizable hole in the early concept. There was a lot of pushback about permanently retiring a character, especially in a game like this where it should take a really long time to level up. When you consider that, and then this other quote from Brad, things start to make a bit more sense:
"If the plan is to implement an interesting but shallow system you have to ask yourself a bunch of questions. Will most people partake in this? Will most people enjoy it? How long will they enjoy it for? How long would it take us to implement and how many people on the team?
That all gets weighed together and, quite often, if it's not a system that has legs... has enough depth that people will be enjoying it for a long time and that it will appeal to most of your players, then it's just not worth doing. Time is better and more wisely and effectively spent elsewhere. That's why I was emphasizing how important the depth and longevity of new systems are."
This topic has been debated many times and on many different threads. I feel pretty strongly that permanent retirement isn't going to be attached to progeny because it would probably end up compromising the feature altogether. As someone who has experience with a feature like this, at least in the broader context of what it's trying to accomplish and how it's trying to do it, I will say that this is the differentiator that I am more excited about than any other. The impact that this kind of system has on the economy, the relevance of content, intentional emergence between new players and veterans, replayability/prestige ... it's monumental. It is absolutely worthy of being dubbed as a major differentiator for Pantheon and I'm really looking forward to seeing how this feature shapes up.
First off, thanks for the reply Kilsin. I really like knowing that these threads are actually getting read by you guys.
In my humble opinion, which with a nickle I would have a hard time getting a stick of gum with...I think retirement and restart is the key factor. This serves as an alternate form of progression (outside the numerous other key points Kilsin outlines in your excerpt) for those who wont be sitting at end cap farming the BiS gear. If you are capable of gaining the rewards from both ends its akin to having your cake and eating it to.
You will gain an advantage of some type through the progeny system and as such gain an advantage over the player next to you. I feel that should require a great sacrifice. Risk vs. Reward. Dont think you can endure grinding those levels out again? Rather stay doing the end game content with your guild? Dont do it. I promise you, just like every other game there is going to be a smaller percentage of the game who is in that elite group getting the BiS gear unless the system makes it too easy to obtain. This, is for the people who want to continue to progress, without endless grinding of the end game bosses for those uber drops. This offers an alternative means to min/max without having to follow the cookie cutter path of level then grind end game content until your eyes bleed.
If your that special someone who can grind end game content while also slamming through the levelling process to maximize on the progeny system as well...don't hate, congratulate. I would only assume that guy is a jedi in MMOs and will pat him on the back for having and eating that cake because he earned it. However, he should have to earn it the right way, full retirements along with the time spent in end game content.
Only alternative I see would be greater reward for retirement with significantly less reward for anything less. Like a full retirement progeny path and an unwanted stepchild progeny path =P.
Philo - I am no expert on these systems though I remember a bit about the DDO version. I note that some systems focus on future characters getting gear and abilities - that is how the SWTOR legacy system works. There is no restart or retirement - the original character is unaffected by the benefits future characters get. I suspect that Pantheon will go well beyond this but none of us *knows* that at this point.
The difference between restarting a character and eliminating it in order to give benefits to the next character is part semantics, part roleplaying and part that it *feels* better to return a beloved character to level one rather than murder her for the benefit of an otherwise identical offsapring. I have always agreed that deleting the original character is *not* the way the Pantheon system should work.
In a fantasy game where I'm supposed to be able to have as much freedom to define my characters as possible/create an identity for them (within reason), I hate the idea of systems that force things that are typically pretty damn big decisions in RL. I don't want my characters having children, or being related to each other, or being bound by some magical connection, etc. etc. They are all separate, with their own backgrounds and stories. More information on this sytem will be greatly appreciated, but I would like to state now that I really hope whatever they end up deciding will avoid making our characters have "offspring" or "retiring/dying" or whatever to gain an advantage. If it's an advantage that is in any way meaningful, it will become a forced expectation.
Sicario said:In a fantasy game where I'm supposed to be able to have as much freedom to define my characters as possible/create an identity for them (within reason), I hate the idea of systems that force things that are typically pretty damn big decisions in RL. I don't want my characters having children, or being related to each other, or being bound by some magical connection, etc. etc. They are all separate, with their own backgrounds and stories. More information on this sytem will be greatly appreciated, but I would like to state now that I really hope whatever they end up deciding will avoid making our characters have "offspring" or "retiring/dying" or whatever to gain an advantage. If it's an advantage that is in any way meaningful, it will become a forced expectation.
I don't view expectations as a bad thing unless they are tied into something dreadful like daily quests. Having a subclass was an expectation in FFXI and that game was better for it. Their subclass system was a game-defining feature that saw all adventurers re-leveling at one point or another. This helped maintain a healthy population for all zones and tiers of content. It helped new players find their footing with veterans and offered a type of replay value that I haven't seen in any other MMO. It helped stimulate the economy by adding breadth to the demand for lower level items and thus the value of the content dropping them. While I agree that having to retire a character in order to participate in Progeny would be counter productive, I think a /toggle between parent/progeny would solve most issues. If AA's are introduced to the game then they will be viewed as an expectation. Is that a bad thing? I think an AA system would be wonderful for this game because it offers an extremely long progression path that gives players long-term goals to strive toward.
At the end of the day, I think Progeny could function very similar to AA's in the sense that it would encourage players to group up and stay ahead of the curve in the XP Attrition War. At the same time, I think it offers a great advantage for "server health" by allowing people to work on that progression throughout all tiers of the game. Rather than getting stuck at end-game and watching more and more players get funneled down the same congested bottlenecks, the entire world would open in more of a horizontal fashion. Forcing players to retire a character doesn't align with the overarching story that has been shared. Pantheon is supposed to be a game that has built-in tools that allow players to find friends and more importantly, keep them together. That's what the caravan feature is supposed to do, right?
Now imagine being in a guild and getting to max level. In a game like this, one that is focused on player/role interdependence, imagine the decisions people would have to make and how frustrating it would be for any team or guild. Your bard wants to participate in progeny. If he has to retire his bard in order to do that ... now you need a new bard. This same logic applies to all classes and roles. Forcing retirement would divide friends and guilds. I am familiar with all of the benefits that have been associated with progeny and I speak from personal experience when I say that a /toggle would make the feature more attractive and thus more efficient/capable of attaining the related goals. If you want to keep the lower tiers of content fresh with players, and the economy stimulated, participation is important. Players shouldn't have to choose between the feature or continuing to play with their friends that rely on them, especially in a game that is supposed to have a long leveling curve in the first place. There are tons of main-focused players out there who would spend a bunch of time leveling up their progeny and thus contributing toward the many stated benefits and goals.
It's important to offer a certain degree of freedom in how they progress their progeny generations. Allowing players to enjoy a bunch of meaningful content that they may have missed on their first run is important, but it shouldn't come at the cost of doing max-level content for 6+ months or whatever the expected timeframe is for achieving level cap. A /toggle function (with limits and restrictions) would absolutely alleviate end-game competition because by it's very nature, any time spent on the progeny would be time not spent at max level. The more people who are willing to do that, the better ... but it shouldn't be an all or nothing choice. This kind of feature has a proven track record in FFXI. The main point behind Progeny is supposed to be the replay value that it can offer to veteran players. That is the core purpose of the feature. There are many benefits that are natural byproducts of people participating and they will be more broadly realized when people buy into it. Progeny has always been the differentiator I have been most excited about. It can offer a type of replay value for main-focused players that otherwise won't be available. If leveling up is viewed as more of a "time-sink" than challenging and fun then I would be more understanding of people who are against it. I'm banking on that not being the case but only time will tell!
@Philo - As we discussed before, you can't speak to the implimentation of Progeny by VR, because VR hasn't told you what the system actually is. They've only made some vague references to it, and where they have spoken on the topic they use the term "retire". Not restart. They leave themselves a lot of wiggle room, but repeatedly use the term "retire" (a word used right now, on this site, in "The Pantheon Difference" page: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/). The quote above by Brad actually elaborates on what it would mean to tell someone they cant use their old character anymore, and then speculates on the reaction of players. It also says Brad is unsure if it's fair to let them continue to use the old character while giving alts benefits. So a full retirement of a character is a possibility by all info we have.
Those of us who have been around a while know that there are systems that may have similarities in games currently on the market. But you don't know VR's intentions. Hell, I'd put even odds that VR doesn't completely know their intentions yet. So anyone making assertions as to what this system really means is doing nothing more than guessing.
And frankly, if you're going to tell me I'm just restarting the same character, I'm no more impressed with the system. I have little to no desire to play the same race and class from level 1 a second or third time.
[edit]
And you've discussed how this eleveates the end-game level clumps, with many people at cap level competing for high end content. Progeny as you describe it doesn't solve this issue. It only delays it. Which might be a good enough reason. But what happens as the game ages? As expansions come out? As level caps are raised? Do you allow more Progeny? Questions abound. Answers are non-existent. Guesses are all we have, so no one can say this is a good system. The "system" doesnt exist in any more than a conceptual form and even that is pretty nebulous.
I know we have discussed this a bit on the side oneADseven, but I’m going to double tap a bit for the sake of healthy debate.
You have stated that "Forcing players to retire a character doesn't align with the overarching story that has been shared." a few times when I have discussed this with you and in the past post. I would like you to elaborate on that statement a little more. I don’t see how it impacts the "overarching story" at all.
I know the dev's have stated that a goal with the progeny system would be replayability (and ultimately a consistent subscription base) and that you are of the opinion that if the progeny system required the retirement and re-levelling of a character that it would be a negative. Ultimately leading to a loss of subscriptions. I am gathering from you it is because the end game raiders and raiding guilds would have a difficult time utilizing the feature because it would conflict with their end game goals. To this I would say, that is precisely why the retirement and re-levelling would be essential to the success of the feature.
I disagree with that and feel as though it has the potential for exactly the opposite effect. Let me explain my reasoning.
The current formula of vertical progression and content progression in MMORPGs and the current problem with it is that it really only benefits the player with end game raiding and content in mind. The end game content tends to be focused on by a smaller percentage of the population, however they also tend to be the most consistent subscribers because they have achieved the most and invested a lot with their time investment paying off. The majority, not the minority of players do not ever see all of the content. This gives them a low investment justification for walking away from a subscription at any time.
It becomes difficult for the standard player, or player who starts later because the majority of end game raiding guilds are fully established. If they reach a point where they are interested in the end game they do not have the gear/stats to join an end game guild but find it difficult to get the gear/stats because they are not in an end game raiding guild. If this is an open world as well where end game content will be heavily contested, that will make it even more complicated for the standard player to get into one of those end game guilds.
Now, you introduce a progeny system promising an opportunity to gain additional power. In my opinion the retirement aspect not only offers the standard player an opportunity to close the gap in power but also forces the end game content player to make a choice. Continue to gain power through farming end game content or give up that opportunity for another one. Essentially having to sacrifice one power grab in order to progress in another. Not both.
If this forced choice is not there you are just giving the most powerful a way to double dip and increase the power gap even more. Additionally, if the standard or “casual” player takes advantage of this to close the gap in power to min/max it can’t be said that it was a handout. It was well earned, only in a different capacity.
An indirect benefit on top of that is that if end game raiders begin cycling out of the end game content to utilize progeny, it begins to open rotating slots in the end game guilds to participate in that content.
With the current formula we can say to the non end-game raider “if you don’t put in the effort, you don’t deserve the rewards.” That’s acceptable because with the present formula it’s the truth, even if opportunities are lacking. With a full retirement system, you can additionally say “if you don’t put in the sacrifice, you don’t deserve the rewards.” to the end game raider if he wants to gain the advantages of the progeny system.
Feyshtey said:@Philo - As we discussed before, you can't speak to the implimentation of Progeny by VR, because VR hasn't told you what the system actually is. They've only made some vague references to it, and where they have spoken on the topic they use the term "retire". Not restart. They leave themselves a lot of wiggle room, but repeatedly use the term "retire" (a word used right now, on this site, in "The Pantheon Difference" page: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/). The quote above by Brad actually elaborates on what it would mean to tell someone they cant use their old character anymore, and then speculates on the reaction of players. It also says Brad is unsure if it's fair to let them continue to use the old character while giving alts benefits. So a full retirement of a character is a possibility by all info we have.
Those of us who have been around a while know that there are systems that may have similarities in games currently on the market. But you don't know VR's intentions. Hell, I'd put even odds that VR doesn't completely know their intentions yet. So anyone making assertions as to what this system really means is doing nothing more than guessing.
And frankly, if you're going to tell me I'm just restarting the same character, I'm no more impressed with the system. I have little to no desire to play the same race and class from level 1 a second or third time.
Feyshtey. I dont think they know yet either entirely. Right now there are more important considerations to place as the 50m target.
It sure is damn fun to think about though.
I'm at work, ill respond more eventually. But we all need to understand that, as brad has mentioned, the progeny idea is based on remort systems that have been around for a long time...but don't seem to be used heavily in current mmos.
It isn't a new idea that is created for Pantheon. Yes the specifics are unknown...and even if some were mentioned they wouldn't be set in stone at this point anyway, but anyone with experience playing this type of system in current mmos will have a general understanding of how these systems work. We aren't breaking new ground here.
Like mentioned before, a lot of the confusion is because of the original justification on these forums about the progeny character being the max lvl characters offspring.
If you mean to say that the parent isnt necessarily max level when 'retired', ok. I'm listening. But then the investment requirement seems pretty diminished to get the benefits. And with that, the replayability and longevity increase of the game diminished as well.
If you mean to say that the progeny character isn't the offspring of the max level character, then I'd argue that you're (potentially) wrong.
philo said:I'm at work, ill respond more eventually. But we all need to understand that, as brad has mentioned, the progeny idea is based on remort systems that have been around for a long time...but don't seem to be used heavily in current mmos.
It isn't a new idea that is created for Pantheon. Yes the specifics are unknown...and even if some were mentioned they wouldn't be set in stone at this point anyway, but anyone with experience playing this type of system in current mmos will have a general understanding of how these systems work. We aren't breaking new ground here.
Like mentioned before, a lot of the confusion is because of the original justification on these forums about the progeny character being the max lvl characters offspring.
Yeah, I first played that kind of system back in my MUDD days, they called it reincarnation.