I was reading a post about the race to hit cap and it made me decide to post something I had always thought about in MMOs. I always enjoy an MMO that had options to focus more on various types of useful advancement instead of just your linear character advancement to max. Of course there is crafting and I have always loved the concept of alternate advancement because grinding out non linear advancement always gave me a feeling of mastery of the character.
In every MMO I have ever played, "magic" items seem oh so non-magical. If Im an adventurer and I stumble upon a magical sword, regardless of level that should be significant. However in the MMO world we typically look at the item and assess how fast the item will become useless to us on our race to "level up".
I had thought several times that "magical" items should be something special and have an opportunity to grow with a character. In fantasy, magical items tend to have a bond with the one who posseses it.
So, what if magical items had the ability to level up as well. Not passively. I hate that idea. I think you should have to choose to put effort into it in order to do so. Example, at level 10 in a gnoll cave you happen to loot a magical "Sword of Examples". This item is appropriate as a strong weapon for a level 10 but becomes relatively weak within several levels as all weapons do in MMOs. However, when you inspect the weapon it says "The blade thirsts for the souls of the fallen." (or something more poetic than my imagination can muster). This would mean that you would essentially grant the weapon experience while killing undead. Once the weapon advances to the next level with a slight statistical increase to become relevant for a level 11 you inspect it again and it says " The blade thirsts for the blood of X" (You get the drift, pardon my corniness).
Ultimately, not only would it allow for a magical weapon to advance and mantain its relevance, but would also encourage players to seek out different areas for different types of NPCs in order to do so. Instead of going to the camp everyone is fighting over, maybe I'll LFG to see if anyone needs scarabs to level up a piece of gear as well.
Just a thought. Ive always hated dumping a magic weapon that I had a fond memory about obtaining because in 5 levels it was useless. I also get stupid amounts of joy watching experience bars increase. Maybe there are logistical complications with something like that but again, just something I have always thought about.
This sounds a lot like WoW's artifact weapon system which wasn't that great. It was great in theory, but turned out to just be a grindfest for leveling up your weapon. I was originally very excited for something like this but later hated it. One issue that I personally didn't like was I never experienced another weapon. I just kept using the same one since I could level it up and it was always useful. Wasn't as fun for me. Anyways, that's my two-cents.
Neyos said:This sounds a lot like WoW's artifact weapon system which wasn't that great. It was great in theory, but turned out to just be a grindfest for leveling up your weapon. I was originally very excited for something like this but later hated it. One issue that I personally didn't like was I never experienced another weapon. I just kept using the same one since I could level it up and it was always useful. Wasn't as fun for me. Anyways, that's my two-cents.
I never played WoW with the artifact system. I believe later on in EQ they had some sort of levelling system for weapons where they passively levelled with you as well.
I think the key would be to make it grindy enough and progression slightly behind at level gear so that ultimately finding current drops is more practical. While at the same time allowing one the option to advance the weapon if they needed to either make the one they have more suitable until they got an upgrade or because they happen to just have a particular fondness to the weapon due to looks, maybe a proc, the skin or whatever. I also think that levelling it should allow it to remain relevant but maybe not equivelant to a higher level drop in every case if that makes sense.
I was always the type to level 2hb to max even if I knew there would never be a time I wouldnt be dual wielding. In those cases I would probably want to have something I could grind mobs my level range but not necessarily go out of my way to farm or buy a weapon to fit that role. If it happens to have a snare proc on it as well I would probably go out of my way to level that particular item.
Again, I would see this as an alternate path as opposed to going to X dungeon for the new hotness to drop. I would say anything of a levelled weapon should always be slightly behind on at level equipment but still close enough to be viable and not necessarily stellar.
This seems like a good idea....until you experience it, sadly its dissapointing in the end, mostly because when does it come into play, if its during release by the end of your journey you are going to be sick of looking at it, and then theres expansions/content patches, Not only that but it will only be a matter of time before it becomes a linear progression.
I have played more than a few games where weapons or other gear levels up. It generally proves to be far more negative than positive.
Apart from other negatives correctly mentioned above - it takes a lot of the fun out of hoping for a good new weapon. Once you have invested enough time and effort into a legendary or epic weapon at maximum level you don't *want* to start over.
I'm not against a few steps in an epic weapon until it comes out "fully powered" but I wouldn't want it :
-To be the same weapon I upgrade for years
-To be a questline every class has and is just a "process" of boring tier-ed weapons
-To be a pidgeonhole where everyone wears the very same quest-lined weapon. (While some epics were really easy (rogue) I remember seeing very few warriors with their).
Let's not enter the endless spiral of "If any class has X then every class should have it".
I'm kind of tired of the cycle of trash weapons. This one was great 2 levels ago and now it's obsolete.
I'd love to see something where the weapon had a baseline of some sort then you could get gems/inserts that a weaponsith could add to it. Now of course there would be a limit to how much you could add or have on it at any one time.
DracoKalen said:I'm kind of tired of the cycle of trash weapons. This one was great 2 levels ago and now it's obsolete.
I'd love to see something where the weapon had a baseline of some sort then you could get gems/inserts that a weaponsith could add to it. Now of course there would be a limit to how much you could add or have on it at any one time.
Consider that the "cycle" in a game like EQ and that of WoW are light years different. WoW was a cycle of upgrades level after level, drop after drop while it was not uncommon in a game like EQ to hold on to a weapon for numerous levels. So that cycle wouldn't be like what you are used to.
Tanix said:DracoKalen said:I'm kind of tired of the cycle of trash weapons. This one was great 2 levels ago and now it's obsolete.
I'd love to see something where the weapon had a baseline of some sort then you could get gems/inserts that a weaponsith could add to it. Now of course there would be a limit to how much you could add or have on it at any one time.
Consider that the "cycle" in a game like EQ and that of WoW are light years different. WoW was a cycle of upgrades level after level, drop after drop while it was not uncommon in a game like EQ to hold on to a weapon for numerous levels. So that cycle wouldn't be like what you are used to.
Never played WOW. But like in EQ2 I would hold on to my old weapons until there was just too many of them.
I would like a system where I could hold onto my weapon and be able to modify it over time.
DracoKalen said:Tanix said:DracoKalen said:I'm kind of tired of the cycle of trash weapons. This one was great 2 levels ago and now it's obsolete.
I'd love to see something where the weapon had a baseline of some sort then you could get gems/inserts that a weaponsith could add to it. Now of course there would be a limit to how much you could add or have on it at any one time.
Consider that the "cycle" in a game like EQ and that of WoW are light years different. WoW was a cycle of upgrades level after level, drop after drop while it was not uncommon in a game like EQ to hold on to a weapon for numerous levels. So that cycle wouldn't be like what you are used to.
Never played WOW. But like in EQ2 I would hold on to my old weapons until there was just too many of them.
I would like a system where I could hold onto my weapon and be able to modify it over time.
EQ 2 was very WoW like unless you played release. The cycle of upgrades was quite a short interval there.
EQ, you could spend 20+ levels with the same weapon before you found something that was a sufficient upgrade. Items did not drop like candy in EQ and they were usable over numerous levels (as opposed to EQ2/WoW where you needed to upgrade quickly to stay productive in the content).
Tanix said:DracoKalen said:Tanix said:DracoKalen said:I'm kind of tired of the cycle of trash weapons. This one was great 2 levels ago and now it's obsolete.
I'd love to see something where the weapon had a baseline of some sort then you could get gems/inserts that a weaponsith could add to it. Now of course there would be a limit to how much you could add or have on it at any one time.
Consider that the "cycle" in a game like EQ and that of WoW are light years different. WoW was a cycle of upgrades level after level, drop after drop while it was not uncommon in a game like EQ to hold on to a weapon for numerous levels. So that cycle wouldn't be like what you are used to.
Never played WOW. But like in EQ2 I would hold on to my old weapons until there was just too many of them.
I would like a system where I could hold onto my weapon and be able to modify it over time.
EQ 2 was very WoW like unless you played release. The cycle of upgrades was quite a short interval there.
EQ, you could spend 20+ levels with the same weapon before you found something that was a sufficient upgrade. Items did not drop like candy in EQ and they were usable over numerous levels (as opposed to EQ2/WoW where you needed to upgrade quickly to stay productive in the content).
I started EQ2 with beta and played a few years. I had tons of weapons eventually I started dumping them.
I really despise the "cycle". Or at least the rate of speed the equipment cycle has evolved into in the current state of MMO's. Im playing on a progression EQ server atm, and I love how I can go a retarded amount of time before I get a real upgrade. It makes the drop meaningful. When I have endless new items dropping to the point where I am saying "meh, just sell it because I dont feel like looking at everything in my bag" it just donkey stomps the immersion for me.
I guess I like the idea of weapon progression in the context of a game where Im not stumbling on new gear endlessly. I hope they dont go the way of sickeningly fast gear cycling. Id rather value few drops then have to swap new gear every run.
Id much rather be trying to improve what I have because I get so little that everytime I get something to drop it seems expendable because Ill have something new tomorrow.
DracoKalen said:I started EQ2 with beta and played a few years. I had tons of weapons eventually I started dumping them.
I don't remmeber release being a cycle of constant weapon upgrades, but then I will admit I played it only a short time (I really disliked the QoL as well as the many other features they put in to try and correct EQ like play). I came back at a later time to try EQ2 again, but at that time it was basically WoWquest, not Everquest and item upgrades were fast and furious.
Point is, that cycle wasn't a problem in games like EQ, so if they meet those standards in Pantheon, you should find that your items are meaningful for a healthy amount of time.
behold! my level 1 gray rusty dagger has now become a level 100 legendary devious dagger of deceit giving me +100 to aglity and peception and makes me untargetable with no aggro table! it only took me 4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours 34 mins and 22 seconds to make! but it was worth it!
IIRC EQ had items that didn't really level up with you but had stat caps based on what your level was. There were always hidden caps on how much damage you could do with weapons but other items were later added that would be something like +5(10) or whatever and it was capped at 5 because of your level. The item didn't really level up, it was put in place to stop OP twinking.
FF14 has an epic weapon quest that they update every expansion. This has allowed you to keep the same weapon throughout the whole game, for the most part. Its often not BiS though or takes a ton of work to upgrade so by the time it is upgraded you have better.
One thing I really enjoyed about EQ, Kunark, and Velious was that it wasn't a stat/item reset. In MMO's today every expansion resets items to place everyone on equal footing. I get it from an angle, give new people a chance to catch up to the raiders, but in 2 months or so the raiders have passed everyone again. I loved that in EQ even during Velious we were still raiding Kunark and Vanilla content because the items were still useful.
stellarmind said:behold! my level 1 gray rusty dagger has now become a level 100 legendary devious dagger of deceit giving me +100 to aglity and peception and makes me untargetable with no aggro table! it only took me 4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours 34 mins and 22 seconds to make! but it was worth it!
Well, in my example lvl 1 gray rusty dagger would become a lvl 100 rusty gray dagger not a new epic dagger of holy sh#t with stats that the original did not have. If it had a stat on it then that would progress equivelant to what a crappy lvl 100 dagger would be.
Additionally, I dont think weapon progression would be appropriate for all things. Only what would be considered a special item or magic item.
Also, yes. What you are saying is correct in my view. 4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours 34 mins and 22 seconds to make does give the general idea of it being a long, arduous and grindy affair. The option to put that much time into turning a lvl 1 item would be there but 9 times out of 10 you wouldnt, you would likely just level it up a few until you found something drop that was level appropriate or unless there was something (i.e proc or special effect) that would make it worth the trouble.
Tanix said:
EQ, you could spend 20+ levels with the same weapon before you found something that was a sufficient upgrade. Items did not drop like candy in EQ and they were usable over numerous levels (as opposed to EQ2/WoW where you needed to upgrade quickly to stay productive in the content).
I think the reason for this was because your level and skill mattered more than the weapon itself. A level 30 with rusty weapons would easily defeat a level 25-28 with 'better' gear. You have gotten better at slashing! (193) made much more of a difference than a sword with 2 more damage and/or some stat(s).
Percipiens said:Tanix said:
EQ, you could spend 20+ levels with the same weapon before you found something that was a sufficient upgrade. Items did not drop like candy in EQ and they were usable over numerous levels (as opposed to EQ2/WoW where you needed to upgrade quickly to stay productive in the content).
I think the reason for this was because your level and skill mattered more than the weapon itself. A level 30 with rusty weapons would easily defeat a level 25-28 with 'better' gear. You have gotten better at slashing! (193) made much more of a difference than a sword with 2 more damage and/or some stat(s).
Actually, it was more the weapon. By the time the player achieved a drop of such, their "skills" were often far above the requirements.
Not a fan of gear that levels up. It really doesn't make much sense to me why an item would level up instead of the player unless it is some kind of sentient piece of gear.
Praying for a more EQ-esque itemization/gearing progression, but I am relatively sure they won't be going that route and we will have a gear treadmill of sorts more like WoW and beyond where full sets of equipment are replaced every 5-10 levels and higher levels will always mean better drops. Enter: rush to the endgame.
I think you're missing the core of the issue.
That is that there's too much focus on gear progression in general in modern RPG's that try to use it as their carrot on a stick. I remember that back in the old days of EQ, you could wear completely mundane steel plate armor made by a smith at level 20 and it was fine as level-appropriate gear. You'd have a couple of magical pieces for rings and cloaks etc with some minor stat bonuses but not much else. For single player dungeon crawlers and D&D-based isometric games like Baldur's Gate things were similar. Just getting a regular suit of full plate for your warrior was not super easy and would remain useful for much of the game.
All that constant focus on gear progression really does is stretch out your actual meaningful progress (i.e. you have to grind for gear before you are powerful enough to beat a certain boss). I'd rather just have slower XP gain and let players outgrow items much more slowly without needing to upgrade them. Much of the gear collection can focus on (situational) sidegrades rather than upgrades.
Kaeldorn said:I think you're missing the core of the issue.
That is that there's too much focus on gear progression in general in modern RPG's that try to use it as their carrot on a stick. I remember that back in the old days of EQ, you could wear completely mundane steel plate armor made by a smith at level 20 and it was fine as level-appropriate gear. You'd have a couple of magical pieces for rings and cloaks etc with some minor stat bonuses but not much else. For single player dungeon crawlers and D&D-based isometric games like Baldur's Gate things were similar. Just getting a regular suit of full plate for your warrior was not super easy and would remain useful for much of the game.
All that constant focus on gear progression really does is stretch out your actual meaningful progress (i.e. you have to grind for gear before you are powerful enough to beat a certain boss). I'd rather just have slower XP gain and let players outgrow items much more slowly without needing to upgrade them. Much of the gear collection can focus on (situational) sidegrades rather than upgrades.
I think you're spot on Kaeldorn. I initially wrote this idea and even thought of it during the many years of playing MMOs that were in a relentless fast paced levelling and gear acquisition cycle. I practically forgot how the tide changed in that direction from what I had been accustomed to when I started. Since reading alot of the replies I read a little about the systems that other games like WoW and later EQ implemented that were somewhat close to this and see a host of potential problems with it that could arise if not executed perfectly.
The real issue is the 'cycle' of excessively fast levelling and the rate of special (rare, epic, legendary) gear drops. Im playing on a progression server for EQ recently and noticed how much slower the leveling is, along with the fact that the majority of the gear is very standard. Its simple cloth, mail and plate with varying degrees of quality. Special items are rarer and because of that they are "special". Even a magical weapon at a low level lasts long enough for it to have been a meaningful piece of equipment. So the leveling pace, along with less special items and a simpler default set of gear for a good percentage of the game seems to be the recipe that worked. Not sure if that was by intent or accident but it worked well.
Just as much as levelling and progressing the character itself the focus nearly across the board in MMOs is color coded quality equipment. Need to get all purple epic gear, or orange legendary, etc. etc. I think that ought to go. Magic items should be rare and highly sought after. I really like on the progression server that I have gone many levels without hardly changing anything. The gear itself helps if I get an upgrade noticealy, but it also doesnt make me or my characters practically useless if Im not in a certain quality gear.
I'd love to see a system whereby you can "sacrifice" a +2 Sword of Undead Papercuts to improve your +3 Scimitar of Chopping. Through the expenditure of other resources (gold, materials, etc) some portion of the stats from one item can be merged into another item. In the example above the final weapon would maybe be a +3 Scimitar of Chopping, +1 bonus vs undead. Even the appearance of the final weapon might be changed by sacrificing a 3rd item whose appearance you want to keep.
It's a great way to remove items from the economy as well as whatever the combine cost in terms of gold and resources. It even provides a bit of a minigame players engage in to improve and customize their gear which provides progression without having to directly add yet more gear to the game.