While it may be a bad idea for this game, that doesnt mean its a bad idea period. And sometimes sugar coating it is just being polite. Why do we have to be mean to each other? Why be toxic when we can choose to be better? Do i want RNG loot game-wide? No, dear god, please, no. The kind of system the OP is suggesting is better suited for a console game. That is why i said it isnt a "bad" idea. It just doesnt really fit into MMO's. Do i want TLC? Not really. I was just making a point. Do i want dynamic content with a single drop or limited drops of that item per server? Heck yes.
its not being mean when you tell someone why something wont work, youre mistaken the emotion here...does butter cut steel? No its doesnt, does that make you mean for telling me butter doesnt cut steel? according to you it does, see where im going with this?
kreed99 said:While it may be a bad idea for this game, that doesnt mean its a bad idea period. And sometimes sugar coating it is just being polite. Why do we have to be mean to each other? Why be toxic when we can choose to be better? Do i want RNG loot game-wide? No, dear god, please, no. The kind of system the OP is suggesting is better suited for a console game. That is why i said it isnt a "bad" idea. It just doesnt really fit into MMO's. Do i want TLC? Not really. I was just making a point. Do i want dynamic content with a single drop or limited drops of that item per server? Heck yes.
When disagreeing or pointing out an invalid argument (subjective of objective) becomes an insult, then society has devolved to a level where there can be no advancement of ideas, no progression of understanding and only the appeal to ignorance and emotional servitude.
I think people need to stop personally attaching their ideas to themselves. Look, people are going to have unsound, illogical ideas from time to time, this is the nature of things, it is the process of learning and understanding. If someone points out a flaw in logic, it isn't a personal attack, it is an attack on the idea itself, something all ideas MUST withstand via logic or be cast away to the garbage bin of poor reasoning.
That is, if your idea turns out to be bad, the person pointing that out isn't attacking you personally, they are pointing out the problem with your rasoning, your idea. You can defend it logically or you can take offense. I would prefer people defend it logically, and if they can not, admit a fault in the logic or position and work from there. That is healthy discussion, not thinking every argument is valid, that every opinoin is sound, this is where we walk a path straight into insanity.
People will be wrong, it happens (I have been wrong many times in my life and continue to make errors as I go), but I refuse to cater to poor logic out of some socially contrived idea that by disagreeing I will hurt feelings. People need to group up and realize that the way to success is failure, that you can't be right if you have never been wrong.
So with all due respect, please stop this whole "toxic... mean..." accusation thing, it isn't being mean to point out a flaw in someones reasoning. In fact, to ignore it and let people go on thinking their logic is sound I find to be more of a disrespect because it sends the message that the person is too far past any means to be reasoned with. That is really a form of disrespect.
@Dragon I your idea closely mimics a non-repeatable quest reward. There is definitely room for good items to be rewards for a non-repeatable quest. You can go to the locations where the quest items drop and kill to your hearts content but you will never get more than one copy of said quest reward. Otherwise I am not too keen on the idea myself. I would rather deincentivize high level characters farming low level zones by having it be a relative waste of time.
@Nephele as usual lots of good ideas. The only one I’m not thrilled with is #4. It’s a pet peeve of mine when monsters, NPC or dragons drop items that they would not be carrying. I would prefer to see Boss Mobs having fairly small loot tables which are really just vehicles to receive crafting materials through deconstructing them. The deconstructed items can be rebuilt into the types of items your raid actually wants rather than only 25% of named items dropped by the boss being valued.
@everyone: Rather than RNG items I prefer to think of them as formulaic items and Named items. Named items would have some unique skins and occasionally non-standard stat combinations but by definition would be Lore items as they have a name and a story and you can only have one copy per character/account.
Formulaic items are also fairly straight forward assuming that Ceythos delivers us a kickass crafting system. They are items that can be made with one or another craft. They are a combination of base object recipes with the cultural skin of the mob that dropped it using raw materials that are native to the zone with a chance to have an optional component applied to the recipe. These optional components are the source of magical effects on otherwise mundane gear. These optional components are also what people are primarily looking for to have items crafted that fit their class.
The semi RNG component to the formulaic item system is that you will not always find iron armor when killing an NPC in a zone with copper tin and iron for example. The armor could drop as iron or bronze which have different base stats. The optional ingredients show up on items can also be fairly random but they would also have another source in the zone. For example a Carved Cougar Tooth could be harvested in raw form from a killed cougar which is purified then worked or it can be found attached to a goblin lieutenant’s leather harness. So the items would have some randomness to them but would be in a fairly focused subset of the global options.
The intent of this is that most items players use for most of their career are formulaic items. There will be plenty of Named items out there but only a few in each zone with most being quest rewards. Rather than needing to itemize Named Items for every slot of every class across all the class levels you just make templates that can be shifted for what each class favors though with many variations.
I get your point. And i didnt mean to accuse you or anyone of being toxic or mean. I was just saying that i don't like doing that. So i might skirt around telling someone that thier idea is crap and word it better/differently. And if the OP actually had more thoughts than just a single post without a rebuttal we might have something to go on.
Yes, i have been known to put bandaids on fleshwounds. I have an aptitude for wasting my time on fruitless endeavors.
Nephele said:It's an interesting concept and one that I have not thought about before, really. It feels like one of those things that might work "on paper" but in practice might not actually accomplish the goal that it's really going for. I'll try to explain:
While it's true that some loot proliferation can be traced back to farming, even if you remove the farming from the equation, you'll still end up with loot proliferation over time. The reason for that is that you'll have people acquiring items that they themselves don't use - or, that they *will* use, but then later replace.
So, if the goal of this system is to cut down on loot profileration in the economy, I don't think it actually goes far enough. Plus, how do you handle the situation where someone wants to help another player get the drop that they already have? Unless you're envisioning personalized loot for every member of the group (which potentially increases loot proliferation) that could lead to some messy situations. "Sorry Bob, I want to help you but if I go the thing you want won't drop."
I think instead of doing this, when it comes to loot tables, the emphasis needs to be on rarity and variety. We all keep expecting EQ-style farmable named mobs, but I don't know that we should be. Pantheon has an opportunity to change the way that looted items are delivered and help mitigate the problems of static camps and farming. Things like:
1) Setting up shared loot tables for minor named mobs so that any of them can drop a wide variety of items, instead of always droppng the same two or three things.
2) Providing multiple potential spawn points for minor named mobs to make them less predictable in where they may show up.
3) Avoiding the use of static timers for named mob respawns but instead using placeholders or "lottery" spawning for minor named mobs, and triggered spawns for major bosses
4) For major bosses, preparing a big and diverse loot table such that you never quite know what you'll get but it will probably be interesting.
5) Insuring that while loot tables have usable equipment, they also have things like special crafting materials, spell/skill upgrade fragments, or collection pieces.
My point here is that if VR sets things up right, we won't have a game where static camps (for items are really a thing. Instead we'll have a game where groups head off into dungeons just to see what they can get from whatever they run across, or maybe to try and spawn the big bad for his sweet loot. Even if the same amount of loot is generated (and there's no reason to think it wouldn't be), that loot will be a much more diverse set, slowing proliferation.
Some people may like what I have said and some people may hate it because it clashes with their worldview, but I think it's important that we don't make assumptions about how we're going to spend our time in Terminus. VR has the opportunity here to give us all a newer, different, more compelling adventuring experience than we've had before, and I hope they use that opportunity well.
I love these ideas. I personally do not like buying my loot, I like to earn it. However, playing on EQ's TLPs for the last few years it has been next to impossible to actually get a shot at a camp where named mobs spawn, because others have the spot camped 24/7 and it's frequently the same person who never leaves and is not interested in adding you to a list, because they already have their box army with them and don't want to even give you a 1/6 chance of you winning a roll on the loot.
Riqq said:the down side of not having static spawn locations for monsters is you might not ever see it, in which case why play the game? You will quit after a month if you even make it that long.
And if the static spawn is camped 24/7 by box armies you will also never get to see it. Take that incentive away and everyone can have a chance to see the content.
Trasak said:@Dragon I your idea closely mimics a non-repeatable quest reward. There is definitely room for good items to be rewards for a non-repeatable quest. You can go to the locations where the quest items drop and kill to your hearts content but you will never get more than one copy of said quest reward. Otherwise I am not too keen on the idea myself. I would rather deincentivize high level characters farming low level zones by having it be a relative waste of time.
@Nephele as usual lots of good ideas. The only one I’m not thrilled with is #4. It’s a pet peeve of mine when monsters, NPC or dragons drop items that they would not be carrying. I would prefer to see Boss Mobs having fairly small loot tables which are really just vehicles to receive crafting materials through deconstructing them. The deconstructed items can be rebuilt into the types of items your raid actually wants rather than only 25% of named items dropped by the boss being valued.
@everyone: Rather than RNG items I prefer to think of them as formulaic items and Named items. Named items would have some unique skins and occasionally non-standard stat combinations but by definition would be Lore items as they have a name and a story and you can only have one copy per character/account.
Formulaic items are also fairly straight forward assuming that Ceythos delivers us a kickass crafting system. They are items that can be made with one or another craft. They are a combination of base object recipes with the cultural skin of the mob that dropped it using raw materials that are native to the zone with a chance to have an optional component applied to the recipe. These optional components are the source of magical effects on otherwise mundane gear. These optional components are also what people are primarily looking for to have items crafted that fit their class.
The semi RNG component to the formulaic item system is that you will not always find iron armor when killing an NPC in a zone with copper tin and iron for example. The armor could drop as iron or bronze which have different base stats. The optional ingredients show up on items can also be fairly random but they would also have another source in the zone. For example a Carved Cougar Tooth could be harvested in raw form from a killed cougar which is purified then worked or it can be found attached to a goblin lieutenant’s leather harness. So the items would have some randomness to them but would be in a fairly focused subset of the global options.
The intent of this is that most items players use for most of their career are formulaic items. There will be plenty of Named items out there but only a few in each zone with most being quest rewards. Rather than needing to itemize Named Items for every slot of every class across all the class levels you just make templates that can be shifted for what each class favors though with many variations.
I like this idea of non repeatable quest rewards. How about instead of static named camps for every important piece of loot, we could have quest-spawned named mobs where it is coded that whoever spawned the named mob recieves a particular piece of loot and perhaps other loot that could be rolled on by everyone who helped? Then even if there are box armies in the zone, they truly become a help to a player who is trying to experience content and gear up outside of the bazaar.
Being that the evironmental effects on players will be a thing, there will be an incentive to go other places to get gear for different reasons. I am hoping that the world is large enough with a multitude of bosses to fight for different reasons. Boss x is camp them go to boss y and try the luck there. I hope the servers are full enough to have this problem.
Riahuf22 said:Keno Monster said:Riqq said:EppE gets it, and not only will it hurt the economy but whos ever going to do that dungeon again if there isnt anything there for them? They already are making it easier to level which means the world is already that much smaller -_-. See everquest ruled because you could get an item at level 20 that would be good until level 50 or you would at least wear it until then, if any system needs to be under the microscope i would say it should be crafting and crafting materials as this is where EQ as kind of crappy, but it did make the items you did craft super valuable....i think the richest person was the first max level jewel crafter on our server, but also when the other proffessions started picking up with later expansions it was pretty cool...it just took too long for them to get them in order.
And the other side of that is that you could be level 40 and find an upgrade that you'd wear in a level 25 dungeon, thus effectively expanding the size of the world.
It doesn't it makes it smaller, I can say in Eq, for loot their is like what maybe 7 zones in total that you actually have to go to get loot and like 5 zones to get to level 50 and with a game that has like total I dunno 50 zones or so and only 12 of them mean anything sounds bad. Like you have Solb, Lguk, Uguk, and a few more other people's actually went to to get exp or gear, I mean granted this is with after knowing the game in n out but if the gear progressively got better by level than you would also go to the next teir of dungeons to get better gear for the teir after that, not I simply got this lvl 20 items and I wore it up to lvl 50 comfortably the entire time cuase nothing compared to it, you make it seem like a lvl 40 going backwards makes the world bigger but if a lvl 20 got that item he might not of visited some of the areas he went to simply cuase the gear there simply wasn't worth it.
I don't understand your reply. You seem to be disagreeing yet proving my point. Yes, in fact, providing reasons for people to go back to zones they would not otherwise visit because they've out leveled them does increase the effective size of the world.
No and no. TLC is terrible, but I don't like the solution offered either. I don't care if people farm something, at least I can buy it from them. I really dislike artificial limiting systems for minor problems. Also, no one time drop per server items (which is what I thought this was going to be about).
Dragon said:Would you like to see the addition of one-drop items? Instead of Trivial Loot Code (TLC) which excludes higher level characters from farming lower level zones, one-drop items would only ever drop for a character once. They can come for it at any level they want, whether 1 or 100. If you sell it, gift it, destroy it, or part with it for any reason, your only chance of getting it back would be to buy one. One drop items would be more valuable for this reason. It might also prevent one player from dominating a camp around the clock, because it would remove the financial reward. This would then open those camps up for people who enjoy earning gear through adventures with their friends.
I actually like this idea because it will keep these items unique/rare hard to come by and thus adding value and reason to treasure hunt and stash etc.
The game just needs to be more difficult to discourage bot armies. There will always be camps and they will always be farmed. What we need is content that is either difficult enough that someone cant solo it (option 1) or institute trivial loot code so that those that can solo it dont monopolize and block those that desire the camp (option 2). Another option is do not allow best in slot items from dropping from low level group mobs to discourage farming of ultra pricey marketplace items (option 3). Obviously i would prefer option 3, option 1 is next and if there are not other options then option 2. Trivial loot code is a last resort option, but is still a viable option.