You can easily do both. I will play whatever class and race I want, and then proceed to min max that character until its near perfect. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.
So many people tried to join 1 raid in wow where someone said their gearscore was to low and now everyone has this absurd view of how top end guilds play the game. This is not the case. Theres a distinct difference between world first WoW guilds who are competing for recognition and sponsorships. And server first guilds that are leagues above the next closest competitor.
Min maxing will not matter in the majority of pantheons guilds. Infact I even guarantee if you wanna play a dps dread lord, there will most likely be a guild that takes you.
Stop making it seem like min maxing is a bad thing. It's the exact same thing to me, as having alts, or maxing all tradeskillers is to you. It's just a different way of experiencing the game.
As far as knowing what the stats do. In the end, it wont matter. If you assume nearly a year of alpha and beta.... you'll have all of the stats completely figured out by then, by people that find fun in unlocking hidden breakpoints and squeezing out 1% extra dps. It doesnt matter either way.
Some people take racial bonus very serious. I hope people understand that most MMO's spend months after release making changes (including racial abilities) to achieve the feel and balance they are looking for. I hope the VR team stay away from giving tanking, healing, or dps racial bonuses because:
A - It will be too strong of an influence and divide the community.
B - If they decide they need to change the racial abilities later there will be too much blowback.
Retsof said:Some people take racial bonus very serious. I hope people understand that most MMO's spend months after release making changes (including racial abilities) to achieve the feel and balance they are looking for. I hope the VR team stay away from giving tanking, healing, or dps racial bonuses because:
A - It will be too strong of an influence and divide the community.
B - If they decide they need to change the racial abilities later there will be too much blowback.
Racial bonuses, more than starting stats, will factor into what is the best race for each class. EQ had a few really good racial bonuses that made race/class combo's drastically better. When WoW first came out they had racials that were drastically better. I think balancing racials will do more for allowing people to pick whatever race/class combo they want, without feeling gimped, more so than starting stats. It's also extremely difficult. I would almost rather racials be some out of combat buff or QoL enhancement.
I never min-max . Choosing the race is for me a matter of lore and culture because I like to identify with my character and try to behave in game like my character really would if the world was real . This is basically RPing (without all the codified formalism) and it is the main reason why I play an MMORPG at all .
The stats represent for me a very rough qualitative representation of a character's abilities . Racial traits are innate inherited abilities and general stats are the result of what the character learned + what his birth gave him . For that reason I consider that racial traits must be necessarily very different because the races are very different too . If a game doesn't give a significant strength advantage to a 200 kg Ogre compared to a 45 kg halfling , then the races don't make any sense , the world is inconsistent , I can't believe in it and immersion is destroyed . In that case I'll stop playing such a game .
As for stats coming from equipment , it is something that has always bothered me because I can't see how somebody could become more intelligent by just wearing some boots and become stupid by removing them . Equipment should influence only stats that an equipment could believably influence either magically or physically - AC , AGI , DEX , STR and resistances . Everything else is a matter of learning , training and experience (e.g level) . Unfortunately most MMO are using a system where the bulk of stats is coming from equipment so that I am forced to also look for equipment that enhances the abilities that are important for my character (STR for a warrior or WIS for a palladin f.ex) .
But I won't spend a single second on trying to mathematically solve the relations between a stat and things like DPS or mana/s .
When i start to min/max the game starts to become a numbers game. It becomes a spreadsheet where peope do calculations to get the best of the best out of their character.
I don't mind if others do it. But i play what i like. I choose a race (mostly just a bald human) which i think it fun to play, regardless of the class i choose (probably rogue or ranger but recently i am more into sword and board).
I just hope people don't demand in raids to install a dps-meter addon or something because than the cat is out of the bag since i always tend to have bad dps compared to others.
Hopefully when that happens we have housing so i can spend my time decorating, fishing and sailing.
Most likely i will be playing with friends, so will try to attune my class and race choice to that more than i will to benefit the character. It will ofcourse be in the back of my mind and game changing bonusses will most definitely play part in my choice. For example, the AC boost on Dwarfs is very appealing to me, but i like to play medium / small races to start with.
I wouldn't care if I couldn't tell the difference. :)
What I mean by that is, if you couldn't parse out the difference that x strength meant on melee damage, so one race didn't have an advantage?
Then I wouldn't care, because I could perform my role to the best of my ability, without caring about race.
However, this isn't DnD and it's unlikely we're going to see 18 STR Halflings to start, relatively speaking.
The difference between 70 starting STR and 113 starting STR was significant. (gnome or dark elf vs. barbarian warrior)
I would imagine similar disparity will exist in starting stats with Pantheon races, as well, so min-maxing will likely be common.
Racial limits and bonuses make sense to me, but so far, there's nothing in the design that takes racial size into account when it comes to combat or non-combat effectiveness. As in, I don't think if you're a small race, you'll hide or sneak better, especially with all the see-invis / see-stealth / truesight dispositions now. That's just a binary check without racial modifiers, so far. I think that's unfortunate, and eventually, once all the homogenization is done (if that's ultimately the outcome) then they might as well go with ARAC like EQ2 did.
Hopefully, though, they figure out a way to make the racial choice meaningful, in some way, despite the conflict with dispositions.
I will ALWAYS go with a race/class combo that I enjoy for playstyle and/or "roleplay" factor. I do not care one bit about being the absolute best possible. I don't play these games to measure e-peens or top a parse. I play them to have fun and having to turn a game into a second job, where I do what is required rather than what I want or enjoy, isn't my idea of fun. I have never once in any MMO picked a race based on starting stats, racial abilities, or end game performance.
The thing is, I will choose a race/char based on what I imagine to be important or what I assume would be usefull based on the descrption of the benefits/stats/racial abilities.
When I start playing I sometimes find it might have been better to choose something else, but I secretly hope that my choice will have a profound impact heretofore unbeknownst to the class. like selecting STR over INt for a caster, and discovering I can wield a 2HB rather effectively in that it 'procs' more as a happy accident for my initial poor choice.
Conversely, I do get gear envy and I am prone to also seek a BiS unless I feel the happy accident above copmpensates for the difference.
BamBam said: I have a selection of races I like, I will pair these races with the class I like. I will look at the racials and stats and make a fit, that I personally like the best. Lore and story are not so important to me, looks and animations are though.
This. I would add that with "animation" I include gameplay/mechanics. Also, if the racial bonuses are detrimental to a class I will avoid crippling myself i.e. if a race has reduced mana regen, I won't play a class that relies on mana, alternatively if a race has a bonus to melee damage I would definitely play a melee class. I don't see this as min/maxing as much as I see it as... well I guess it is min/maxing if you rely want to analyze it, so I suppose it is important to me. Lore and Story mean VERY little to me because when I don't like the Lore, I can easily imagine my own - I can't however imagine my own combat animations/gameplay.
As a min/maxer I can safely say that I do it for my own personal joy - not to compare myself to anyone else, but to see how good I can be. I would also like to add that if there are attribute caps (which I'm certain there will be) this plays a role in my race/class choices when taking into consideration that specific classes will equip gear that increase specific attributes... so if an Ogre warrior starts with 60% of the STR and CON attribute caps but 10% of the DEX or AGI cap, its probably a safe bet that 90+% of the warrior gear will have STR and CON but likely very little DEX or AGI (in comparison)... so the player starting as the race with a very high DEX or AGI may be at a disadvantage at early game, but by end game have the same capped STR and CON (because all of their gear has that + buffs likely) but also have a superior DEX or AGI.
This is where the racial attributes come in like @Dortea mentiona earlier. I'm still waiting for the release of these before even seriously considering what I'm going to play... I'm hoping they won't have that much of an impact on combat so that it won't matter, but there will probably be at least one race with some crazy bonus like plus X% HP or Damage increase/avoidance... we'll see.
Add: A damage increase wouldn't be game breaking, but skills like the Ogre's stun immunity was a superior racial talent for tanks... the Iksar regen was insane for the original classes available to the Iksar.
Its more important to me that I play race/class that i enjoy playing and connecting with.
However, once people start working all their strats and coming up with all these numbers on how this build or spec is best for this, and with these BiS items you can splash dmg over the highest dps cap...blah blah blah. Then I start looking where my character is on those charts....now im worried im playing the worst possible race/calss/spec. This is why i hate damage meters. its like if you love a race/class/spec, but its the worst dps no one wants to play or raid with you.
DPs meters ruined mmo's in my opinion. Its not about the meter its about the effort everyone put in together as a team to take down whom or what ever was hording all our gold! I dont care if people min/max but i definately dont want to see damage meters or how they have to be a must in raiding or any of that.
I will do some of each.
I feel it would be very selfish of me to, using the initial example, roll a gnome rogue because they are cool and then expect my guildmates/groupmates etc cover for the fact that I do 5% less damage.
I might make a gnome rogue, but it would be an additional toon and not a raiding toon.
My raiding toons I will attempt to make as good as possible not because I want to be 'leet' or some other such nonsense. I want them to be as good as possible to justify my spot on the team. I would rather be on this list: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1185358-the-100-toughest-athletes-ever
then this list: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1193708-25-laziest-athletes-in-sports-today#slide3
I cannot change my ability/talent. I can be prepared. I can practice. I can, because I want to help my friends not be carried by them, effort.
Max/mining is part of efforting.
alephen said:I will do some of each.
I feel it would be very selfish of me to, using the initial example, roll a gnome rogue because they are cool and then expect my guildmates/groupmates etc cover for the fact that I do 5% less damage.
I might make a gnome rogue, but it would be an additional toon and not a raiding toon.
Something that is being overlooked is that in EQ, for the most part, no one cared if you weren't the perfect race/class combo because we didn't have a raid size limit. Want to be an Erudite Paladin? No problem you're just going to be down the pecking order a bit when it comes to loot. EQs system allowed for people to play what they wanted because there were no restrictions put in place by the game on raiding, other than level.
I think it's a question of relaxed enjoyment vs hardcore ambition. Both camps tend to think the other is "doing it wrong" and hope the developers will lean toward their own philosophy.
I sincerely don't mind if others do the bean-counting optimization thing, that's fine (and I'm sure I'll do a fair bit of that myself within the arbitrary race/class/religion/whatever boundaries I go with at creation)... as long as that doesn't result in my permanent relegation to the back of the bus. I'm fine with being option two or three to fill a group role, and perhaps doing a better job than expected once chosen even if I'm not top-tier elite. I'm less fine with being "do not pick this guy no matter what because he chose a non-optimum race."
All that being said, I certainly DO expect some above-average difficulty if I choose to play, for example, an intellectually penalty-laden ogre wizard or something. That challenge may even be seen as a "hard mode" difficulty to overcome and thrive within, and I know there are people around that might embrace that sort of challenge. And I know that if that's the route I go, I'll receive very little sympathy for my situation later on when I struggle, because "you chose an ogre wizard, dude, what did you expect?" and I think I could live with that. And I'd be kidding myself if I chose that and then ~didn't~ think I'd squeeze every drop of advantage I could find out of the rest of my build... Of course I would. I'd also hope to eventually neutralize much of that disadvantage through acquired player skill, too.
In the end, I guess, I'd hope that such a character creation choice would only make me non-optimum to some mitigatable degree, rather than completely unviable altogether.
EppE said:alephen said:I will do some of each.
I feel it would be very selfish of me to, using the initial example, roll a gnome rogue because they are cool and then expect my guildmates/groupmates etc cover for the fact that I do 5% less damage.
I might make a gnome rogue, but it would be an additional toon and not a raiding toon.
Something that is being overlooked is that in EQ, for the most part, no one cared if you weren't the perfect race/class combo because we didn't have a raid size limit. Want to be an Erudite Paladin? No problem you're just going to be down the pecking order a bit when it comes to loot. EQs system allowed for people to play what they wanted because there were no restrictions put in place by the game on raiding, other than level.
The point is that *I* care. At work, some might think, 'so what if I take a nap on the toilet, Tim is a nice guy, he wont complain about having to answer my phone calls as well as his own.' I do not. Teamwork breaks down when some in the team do not work.
I do not care how good someone is at the game. Some of the best memories I have had were caused by accidents, like having an entire group accidently ported out of a raid. I never had one ounce of hesitation grouping with that person. They (I am being purposefully vague) were a great person, worked to become a very good player and made a mistake. NO WORRIES! But if you show up to raid and AFK and come back when it is time to roll for loot... People that are purposefully choosing their own 'fun' over helping their team, yeah, I do have a problem being that guy.
If I roll a DPS specced healer that can neither heal worth a crap nor do enough dps to make a difference and expect to be in a raid, I am a selfish jerk. I simply do not wish to be a selfish jerk.
Even if there were no limits on raids, I would not want that guy because it causes bad community. The raid leader says, well Sir Brainiac is going to be lower in the loot order because they are a crap race/class combo? I do not want a raid leader deciding on who is priority since that breeds resentment as to if something is fair. Mains over alts is fine and non-discriminatory. 'Prioritized mains over lower order mains' often becomes 'raid leaders friends over everyone else.'
If someone wants to play a race/class that they like but is crap, great. Go for it. More power to you. In Vanguard I had max toons of almost every class, many were poor combinations so I could play starting areas or for RP reasons. I agree it was often fun. I did not raid with these toons.
In a game like Pantheon, it isn't always the stats that matter. A player who is a "good tank" may be able to take a slightly inferiorly built character and be better than a "poor tank" using a properly min-maxxed character. I play the game how I want to play it. No, that doesn't mean my punching/kicking monk is going to have the most ability points in wisdom or charisma, but I may favor something more defensive if I am usually the offtank for the crew I play with most. I may also have some gear in my bank for use in a raid if necessary to provide a bit more damage when defense is not needed.
I'm also one to envision a character that includes race and class, so if another race happens to be better at being said class, tough cookies. That character in my head is a Dark Myr, not a Halfling. That other character i am thinking about is a Halfling.
Edit: I left Rift when they put in a scoreboard for everything from crafting to shiny finding/collecting. Scoreboards/Leaderboards have no place in an RPG outside of PVP. Server firsts are certainly a different animal as single one time achievements. Not who finished first this week/month/season(again outside of PVP).
Porygon said:bryanleo9 said: I really hope the min/maxers that battle for the top 1% of this or that have their own server.Why? How does someone deciding to min max affect you? Im just curious as to your thought process.
I also belong to the players who play for immersion and exploration first . So lore, story and races come first , stats far second .
I agree with Bryanleo9 and choose everytime when it is possible RPG servers because I always hope that I won't be on the same server with people who consider that the game is just an Excel spreadsheet and that the only thing that matters is to kill mobs as fast as possible . How do such players affect me ?
Well a few examples.
I hate it when people talk about "toons". My character is not a "toon" and has nothing to do with a comics book . He is my virtual alter ego in a virtual world . He lives in the same way like an actor lives in a movie. I give him a personality, a history, parents and a role in the world.
I hate the very concept of ooc (out of character) and f.ex people talking in ooc about graphics cards, FPS and pings and how they affect their mob killing . I have no problem with a zone wide channel but I have a problem with ooc.
I hate when people talk about DPS metres , about spread sheets showing how this 1 extra point of dexterity increases the damage output per second of the main hand by 0,75 %. This again reduces the whole world to just a set of soulless numbers.
I hate it when a group says to a player you cannot join this group or raid because you have only X in this or that stat or you don't have sword Y which is the best for your class .
I don't care that some people might prefer to play an RPG in this Excel way, if their only goal in an RPG is to just kill mobs fast, it's their problem. But when they keep talking and behaving in game like in the examples above, then they break my immersion, annoy me with irrelevant considerations and then it becomes my problem . That's why I would flee to a server where this kind of players doesn't exist every time it is possible in order to play only with players who share my priority for immersion , lore and consistent world. I do not consider that the one or other way is "superior" , I just absolutely don't want to mix with people who will keep destroying my immersion all the time .
RPG 1st, stats 2nd
Picking a race should matter. I expect innate racial abilites like Infravision, Ultravision or Hide. Unique races and classes is paramount. However, the last thing I want is some meathead dictating stats to me while I trying to enjoy my time in a virtual world. I get enough people dictating "real life" stats in real life.
There will be players who will calculate the combat stats to death, but to me, they totally miss the who point of the virtual world, "Escape into a RPG with fellow online friends." Everyone tries to improve their armor, weapons and skills, it goes without saying. Escaping with friends into virtual world is my primary goal.
I dont understand the question
I like to play the way i want and i like to minmax in a reasonable way...
i am not going to reroll a maxed toon for half percent advantage, but i will not choose in advance something which is gimped in his stats.
I am not going to farm an item that its upgrade above mine is just several stat points. because these points does not important to me to spend the time on them.
but i am not going to use a pretty armor or a cool weapon whose stats are bad for my class/role.