Is it more important to you to play what you like or is it more imortant to min-max your character? Please don't let this turn into a flame-fest, that's not the point of this thread. Was reading this https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/10358/other-than-cash-shops-p2w just now and saw:
vjek said:EppE said:... Knowing 1 agi = 1 AC isn't cheating, it's giving me the information to make educated decisions.
Agreed. And those days of ignorance are long gone. No-one is going to change starting stats in ignorance, ever, again. I mean, it just ends up feeling like betrayal to the customer.
These days, people will either data mine it out of the client, or parse it from logs, but somehow, some way, that information will become public because someone got burned making a Gnome Rogue, when STR was the primary combat damage stat, not DEX. (in EQ). When a Barb Rogue parsed more than 5% higher, people re-rolled. All you do is guarantee the feeling of bait and switch, when inevitably, the truth is discovered.Happily, so far, Joppa has been very up front with what stats will affect what, and what skills, spells, and so on affect what stats. So we've got that going for us, which is nice. :)
So, is X% more damage/healing/mitigation worth rerolling your toon or will you be playing what you like regardless?
I will pretend you are Kilson and give an honest answer - not one designed to forward any agenda I may sneakily have ((chuckles)). Easy enough since I can't think of any such agendas.
In creating a character I will go for the race I want - because of aesthetics or because I like the backstory - over one with somewhat better racial bonuses. On the theory that I may be playing that character for years and I might as well enjoy it - but the typical racial bonus is less and less valuable as the character advances and gets better gear. But a really *good* racial bonus could change my mind especially one that does not become outdated with levels. Such as a percentage boost (5% greater damage or 10% bonus run speed) rather than an absolute boost (+1 strength or +10 hit points).
Once I have played a character I am far more likely than most to delete it - I enjoy the early stages of games and do not mind repeating them. But I will not do so for min/max reasons. I feel no need whatsoever to have my character be the best possible character of its class - as long as it is entirely capable of doing the content I wish it to do and not so weak that it is a burden to any groups that take it.
If I understand the question properly, it's far more important to me to be able to play the character concept that I identify with. If that means I want my warrior to be a human rather than an ogre, then my warrior will be a human. If that means that I set up my paladin to use a two hander instead of a sword and shield, then that's what I do. It's not that I don't pay attention to stats, but immersion, distinctiveness, and aesthetics tend to outweigh stats, for me.
This is why I am hopeful that Pantheon will set up a system where we can all make different choices from each other and still be equally viable.
Edit: It is worth noting that in the last roundtable, Brad was very firm in his statement that while there will be racial bonuses, they are actively trying to avoid a situation where a particular race is "best" stat-wise for a class.
I am under the impression that the differences in Race / Class will not be large enough to cause a reroll later... The main differences will probably come from gear and any horizontal leveling abilities offered. So if the case, play what makes you happy and work on the toon as you progress to bring out their max abilities.
Ghool said: Play what you want. Min-maxing to the point where you're trying to squeeze out that extra 1% makes no sense. I think too many gamers take their games way too seriously. It isn't a job where maximizing efficiency is the primary goal. The primary goal is to play a game and treating it otherwise, I think one would need to check the priorities in their life. If anyone wants to maximize their character, it's on them. Just don't expect me to do it for any reason. It's a game and I'd prefer to play it rather than break it down into a math problem.
min maxing is a way to play what you want XD ta da~
stellarmind said:Ghool said: Play what you want. Min-maxing to the point where you're trying to squeeze out that extra 1% makes no sense. I think too many gamers take their games way too seriously. It isn't a job where maximizing efficiency is the primary goal. The primary goal is to play a game and treating it otherwise, I think one would need to check the priorities in their life. If anyone wants to maximize their character, it's on them. Just don't expect me to do it for any reason. It's a game and I'd prefer to play it rather than break it down into a math problem.
min maxing is a way to play what you want XD ta da~
Yes, min maxing is a way to play what you want, and that's fine. The point of this thread was just to see what people thought, not to debate which is right/better/wrong. I was just curious. I'll play what I like the way I like it, not to the detriment of the group or being able to do my job in it, but to enjoy what I'm playing.
Nephele said:If I understand the question properly, it's far more important to me to be able to play the character concept that I identify with. If that means I want my warrior to be a human rather than an ogre, then my warrior will be a human. If that means that I set up my paladin to use a two hander instead of a sword and shield, then that's what I do. It's not that I don't pay attention to stats, but immersion, distinctiveness, and aesthetics tend to outweigh stats, for me.
This is why I am hopeful that Pantheon will set up a system where we can all make different choices from each other and still be equally viable.
Edit: It is worth noting that in the last roundtable, Brad was very firm in his statement that while there will be racial bonuses, they are actively trying to avoid a situation where a particular race is "best" stat-wise for a class.
One thing I remember from early EQ was that character level and skill (i.e. You have gotten better at crushing! (152)) had a much larger impact on your effectiveness than the weapon you were using. The roundtable was very encouraging. For me, at least, I'm glad to see what appears to be a system that will reward your gameplay and time invested over what race you picked or gear you have.
OMG You quoted me! I'm semi famous. I'll be signing autographs at the EC tunnel until 2.
I think it's possible to do both. When EQ first came out starting stats mattered, after Luclin they didn't. I'm going to pick my race 100% based off of looks, atleast at this point. That being said after that I want to min/max my stats from gear. I want to know how much swapping a piece of gear out will increase or decrease my mana pool by.
I will do my homework before rolling, choose my class, and then choose the race best suited for that class (as I mentioned in an older post). If things are changed/nerfed/modifed after launch then the real decision comes into play. The "play what I like" concept certainly does apply to my class, it has just about zero bearing on my race. Race is just the tool that supports my class and my playstyle. I could be almost as happy if there was just 1 race, 30 classes, and a 3-5 major warring factions.
EppE said:OMG You quoted me! I'm semi famous. I'll be signing autographs at the EC tunnel until 2.
I think it's possible to do both. When EQ first came out starting stats mattered, after Luclin they didn't. I'm going to pick my race 100% based off of looks, atleast at this point. That being said after that I want to min/max my stats from gear. I want to know how much swapping a piece of gear out will increase or decrease my mana pool by.
Figure it out in play. Do you also like having maps show you exactly where you are, where everything is and where you need to go? This is the same thing.
Tanix said:EppE said:OMG You quoted me! I'm semi famous. I'll be signing autographs at the EC tunnel until 2.
I think it's possible to do both. When EQ first came out starting stats mattered, after Luclin they didn't. I'm going to pick my race 100% based off of looks, atleast at this point. That being said after that I want to min/max my stats from gear. I want to know how much swapping a piece of gear out will increase or decrease my mana pool by.
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Figure it out in play. Do you also like having maps show you exactly where you are, where everything is and where you need to go? This is the same thing.
Tanix said:Figure it out in play. Do you also like having maps show you exactly where you are, where everything is and where you need to go? This is the same thing.
Glad to see you are intentionally ignoring the point of this thread and agruing over if it's valid to know stats or not rather than would you would use to decide your starting character. Care to add to the topic?
I think that the game should provide more accurate informatino than EQ did, but I don't need/want information where it's showing very detailed parsing information like VG had. I like the traditional RPing sense of "Strength does this" and here is your STR score. "Defense does this" and here is your DEF score, etc.
If I wanted to break down how much more damage I am doing when I add 1 STR then I would parse logs and go through that. I really don't want that in the GUI.
bigdogchris said:I think that the game should provide more accurate informatino than EQ did, but I don't need/want information where it's showing very detailed parsing information like VG had. I like the traditional RPing sense of "Strength does this" and here is your STR score. "Defense does this" and here is your DEF score, etc.
If I wanted to break down how much more damage I am doing when I add 1 STR then I would parse logs and go through that. I really don't want that in the GUI.
I kind of liked how EQ2 did their character sheet UI in this regard. You could mouse over any number presented and get a description of what it meant. They had both broad information as well as detailed information presented, but it was set up in such a way that it was easy to read and you didn't get lost in the numbers - or at least I didn't, anyway. However, the detail was there so you didn't have to go out of game to understand how damage mitigation worked, etc.
I don't see why the two of them need to be exclusive. Playing what you like could be the most useful character that fits your playstyle. That being said, I wouldn't replay through an entire class if the differences were small. Not worth the time in my opinion.
If a racial bonus/ability turned out to be huge and was done so intentionally ( to the point I believed devs wouldn't change it ) then rerolling could be in order. Especially if your gameplay is interferred with enough by the decision. There is a difference between elitism and being practical. Say one racial benefit of a race is that they can't be stunned and this makes raiding much better because the unstunned tank can hold aggro and manage surivival cooldowns because they are not stunned. I don't hold it against a raiding group if they don't want tanks that can be stunned then because it becomes a waste of the whole raid's time to wipe with a stunnable tank. By comparison if a racial ability allowed for 3 percent more damage over an hour of fighting, I think that is a terrible reason to exclude a character with the "worse" racial since that 3 percent per hour is most likely not significant to the raid's success.
It's totally possible to roleplay a rerolled character too. It's not like magic doesn't exist in the world. The character could be reincarnated or been the subject of shapechanging magic if they wanted to make it an in character decision if it makes the player happier to have a different race for their character but still roleplay being the same character.
Although I can certainly think of examples in my past that violate what I'm about to say, I tend to enjoy playing an oddball combination. I like being different and standing out in that way. I also find it easier to create backstory and therefore roleplay the less common combination. Having that that, my mains always seem to line up with a race/class combo that tends toward the min/max.
Forced to choose, I identify more with the class, which I equate with skills and gameplay mechanics over the race which I equate with starting stats, appearance and some unique racial ability. As a result, I'd evaluate how wide is the gap between the race that "best" suits that class from a starting stats perspective versus the one that is most uncommon. If small enough, I'll choose the more uncommon combo but if there is a significant hurdle to overcome, I'd likely settle for the min/max combo.