SoWplz said: I honestly am not looking to debate boxing AGAIN... It is becoming of the things you just do not discuss, along with religion and politics. However I'm currently jumping between EQ 1 and 2 and noticed not much boxing on EQ2 cause it's not really needed, the difficulty of the game is not the same. My question is has VR confirmed their stance on boxing? Will they allow it? Will they allow third party programs to help facilitate it? Or will they consider it a ban-able offense? With a new game getting up and going will they enforce this, or just turn a blind eye not wanting to remove some of their player base? Second part of the question. IF they choose to not allow boxing, CAN they really enforce it? Can they see if a separate program is running with their game. Or will VR be risking banning innocent players?
multiboxers are like a natural disaster. just steer clear. they are pretty far and few since it takes quite a bit of resources.
We have some confusion here between terms with very different meanings.
Botting is the control of one or more characters by preprogrammed scripts or some other means rather than direct control by the player. It sometimes involves more than one character but sometimes involves just one character. All major MMOs that I know of ban this - at least officially - the rules are often not enforced.
Boxing involves a player running two or more characters at the same time. Generally usuing two different accounts and historically using two or more computers. That is where the term comes from - each computer was referred to as a "box". Few if any MMOs ban boxing as long as each account is a legitimate honest account and the player manually controls each character (which often involves using autofollow).
Here is a recent quote from Brad: https://twitter.com/1ADSEVEN/status/1087108955896274944
"It's certainly a hot topic. I'm actually not sure from a technical level if we could stop multi-boxing."
I can't really speak on whether or not it's possible to effectively stop multi-boxing but I am confident that a lot of people would pay a little extra to play on a server where it was enforced. There are some folks who say that it's impossible to stop multi-boxing. There are others who are convinced that it can be stopped. Then there is a middle ground where people think it can "mostly" be stopped. I think the middle ground perspective is realistic. If there are strict rules that prohibit multi-boxing then I like to think that most players wouldn't even consider doing it in a game like this where we invest tons of time into our characters/accounts. If there is no hard rule against multi-boxing then it's basically an open invitation for people to try and do it as efficiently as possible just to keep up with others. I have multi-boxed in a few games and it ruins the spirit of the game that I would like to see for Pantheon.
It is officially allowed, and as such, will be seen as encouraged, approved, or required, depending on your perspective. There are many quotes on these forums where it's been confirmed as allowed. Section 10.4 of the FAQ confirms they will not be artifically restricting it, which means both that they approve of it (currently) and that they have the capability, if desired, to artificially restrict it in the future.
Yes, it could be stopped, as it's stopped by many other credit-card-based online services already. Heck, even P99 and all the servers hosted on the same infrastructure limiit concurrency, and they're free. After that, all you need is cc, geoip and AVS and the problem is solved.
But, I don't think Pantheon is going to be the game that embraces those existing solutions, given the expected target demographic size.
I can't wait to multibox! Oh, and as much as Brad has said he hopes the game will be of sufficient difficulty such that multiboxing will be a sub-optimal choice, nothing in the streams so far convinces me that Pantheon will be no more difficult to multibox than any other game out there. People who want to do it will figure out how to do it and do it will enough to meet their needs.
Back in EQ1 early days, I had two accounts (one for daughter). When she quit playing, I set up a second computer (from spare parts) next to mine and sometimes played the two accounts together.
But I did not try to actually play 2 characters at once. I had a Druid on the second account to buff, teleport and transfer items.
Sometimes when leveling a new alt, I would have the Druid sit in the background and heal/buff, but I never tried to fight with 2 chars.
I could see myself wanting to do something similar in Pantheon. After all, my pledge does get a second account.
As far as we know, it will be possible in Pantheon. I hope however that there will be reasonable restrictions (like the truebox code of EQ TLP servers which at least prevents running several instances of the game on the same PC).
And I agree with some others above: Boxing really goes against the "spirit" of Pantheon. If you can just do your own thing (by virtue of having your own group), why not play a single player game?
Retsof said:I didn't box in EQ but I know some that did. They did it for different reasons, usuallly just to give some buffs to a group or sell stuff. It never affected my game in a negative way. I don't see it as an issue.
I two boxed in EQ and it was mainly for this reason. I just used it to power level alts. I'm pro boxing... but I will say I knew of someone in my guild who six boxed. He ran an entire group by himself. He could camp pretty much any group content by himself.
The reason we don't see boxing in current MMOs is two reasons. One you just don't need to. Leveling is pretty much a joke and extremely fast so getting power leveled isn't needed. The second is that you have a large amount of abilities and dungeons require more movement than they use to. You can't have 1 character just sitting there.
Pantheon is set to be a slow leveling game so I see people using a second account to power level as a thing, depending on how buffs work. The best way to prevent 6 boxing is to ensure you need to be actively doing something the majority of the fight on any class. If you have a class that can just cast a heal every 30-60 seconds, or renew buffs and debuff at the start of a fight, or auto attack for decent damage, then you're going to see people 6 boxing content. It is all going to revolve around how demanding the classes are to play.
Myself and my friends that plan on playing this game have all pledged enough so that we are each already getting two copies of the game. We fully plan on using both of those copies to two box if its viable.
EppE said:
I two boxed in EQ and it was mainly for this reason. I just used it to power level alts. I'm pro boxing... but I will say I knew of someone in my guild who six boxed. He ran an entire group by himself. He could camp pretty much any group content by himself.
EppE said:We disagree here. We can debate features and how best to implement them all day, but this game at its core is about building a strong community. This indicates that you are fine with limiting the amount of interactions with the community.
EppE said:Myself and my friends that plan on playing this game have all pledged enough so that we are each already getting two copies of the game. We fully plan on using both of those copies to two box if its viable.
EppE said:Again if you are having difficulties finding a port or sow at max level (group?) then it probably means you didn't build up the social network while leveling that is needed to be succesful in this game.
Everyone of your reasons indicate that you would rather be self sufficient then work with the community.
Percipiens said:EppE said:
I two boxed in EQ and it was mainly for this reason. I just used it to power level alts. I'm pro boxing... but I will say I knew of someone in my guild who six boxed. He ran an entire group by himself. He could camp pretty much any group content by himself.
EppE said:We disagree here. We can debate features and how best to implement them all day, but this game at its core is about building a strong community. This indicates that you are fine with limiting the amount of interactions with the community.
EppE said:Myself and my friends that plan on playing this game have all pledged enough so that we are each already getting two copies of the game. We fully plan on using both of those copies to two box if its viable.
EppE said:Again if you are having difficulties finding a port or sow at max level (group?) then it probably means you didn't build up the social network while leveling that is needed to be succesful in this game.
Everyone of your reasons indicate that you would rather be self sufficient then work with the community.
Wow that has to be the most passive aggressive post in history. Yes I plan on two boxing. I plan on having a main character I group with people with and when I can't find a group I plan on running a duo. You caught me! What incredible investigative research you have done!
I'm pro multi boxing and pro community, its possible to be both. I don't want boxing to be at the point where 1 person can monopolize an entire camp. I guess you were too excited to try and post a "got ya" though huh?
MauvaisOeil said:I don't think "you boxing" was the issue.
But that you alternate between beeing pro and against boxing on different arguments.
I've never been against boxing on any agrument. I'm against game features that don't push the community towards interaction. Two boxing doesn't eliminate that... as someone who used a two box to plvl alts in EQ I can tell you this. I still needed to ask for buffs I couldn't get from my "buff" character. Depending on the class you still can't port or sow or heal, again it depends. Two boxing isn't nearly as detremental to the community as allowing everyone to port anywhere, get run speed whenever they want, etc.
I also pointed out that I'll only do this if viable and I explained how the dev's could make it so anything outside of buffing an alt wouldn't be viable. Its possible to desire community interaction while at the same time okay with someone having two accounts online at the same time.
Also if the dev's banned two boxing I wouldn't care. Its available and I already have two copies of the game so I'm going to see what I can do.
SoWplz said: I honestly am not looking to debate boxing AGAIN... It is becoming of the things you just do not discuss, along with religion and politics. However I'm currently jumping between EQ 1 and 2 and noticed not much boxing on EQ2 cause it's not really needed, the difficulty of the game is not the same. My question is has VR confirmed their stance on boxing? Will they allow it? Will they allow third party programs to help facilitate it? Or will they consider it a ban-able offense? With a new game getting up and going will they enforce this, or just turn a blind eye not wanting to remove some of their player base? Second part of the question. IF they choose to not allow boxing, CAN they really enforce it? Can they see if a separate program is running with their game. Or will VR be risking banning innocent players?
You're not going to hash it out again and then make the same post that's been made 100 times. Do a search. It's been discussed ad nausem. If people pay for multiple accounts they will play multiple toons. It's been talked about *every* stream. It's been blogged about. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this has been covered to death. They've said SO MANY TIMES that the game is being designed to be difficult for one person to play and have NEVER said or insinuated that boxing would not be allowed. Again, not trying to be a jerk, but, dead horse is super dead.
((dead horse is super dead. ))
To put it quite succinctly and following Keno Monster's lead.
Will running two characters at the same time on two different accounts be prohibited? Neigh!
Also, 3rd party programs that automate gameplay will be prohibited.
3rd party programs that transmit key presses while an individual being present at the keyboard (ISBoxer) is typically allowed. (I have not seen a game ban the use of ISBoxer).
As others have stated, the difficulty and speed of the game will determine whether players box. EQ was very easy, and very slow, which is why you saw A LOT of boxing. WoW is a faster paced game, which is why boxing was extremely limited. Create a challenging game and people wont box.
As for it eliminating the social aspect. Well that's not true. Theres a huge difference between someone 6 boxing a group by themselves. And someone 2 boxing and stil needing others to group with them. Something like 2 boxing doesnt eliminate the need for socialization anymore than say... allowing for a player to specialize in all tradeskills does.
