Spluffen said:Tanix said:
EppE said:
Spluffen said:I don't really care if you think its cheating to be honest, cheating or not they are literally still the rules. I want to know the rules.
Yeah... I'm not sure how knowing the rules is cheating. Obsecuring what stats actually do is a terrible game design and every video game that does it eventually has to revert it and add more information. Knowing 1 agi = 1 AC isn't cheating, it's giving me the information to make educated decissions.
The reason why I think it is bad is because it takes away the player learning about their class in play. There were many skills in EQ where it was “vague” on exactly how they worked. The attributes were generally shown, but the details on how they specifically applied the math were not known. You knew a certain stat functioned generically, but you didn’t know the exacts and so through play you learned how your stats worked, got a feel for the basics of the skills.
For instance, taunt was the most misunderstood spell in EQ. You knew what taunt did, but you didn’t know exactly how it worked (detailed mechanics). Through play over time people learned what it was actually doing and how you applied taunt made the difference between being a great tank and a mediocre one. This was what it meant to “know your class”.
FD was the same way. As a monk, I learned numerous tricks about how FD worked, how it interacted with mobs, mob pathing, mob agro, etc… and all of these things were not “given” to me past a general description of an ability. It was left to the player to master them in play.
I noticed a change in attitudes in gaming over the decades. In the early cRPGs, for instance “wizardry 7”, the classes, skills, and basic stats were explained “generally”, maybe with “some” details, but most of this was generic. You weren’t given the math, you had to play and develop an understanding of the best way to use these spells/abilities/equipment. You were given enough information to make an educated decision, but not enough to blatantly hand you the right answer in every case as that would be “given” the answer, not given an basic understanding.
A lot of people playing games tend to look at a “manual” as that of a “walk through” where everything must be explained in exact detail so the player doesn’t have to use deduction, experience and judgment, they just have to do the math and the answer is instantly provided. That is hand holding, that is in my opinion… cheating.
Play the game, figure out the details, gain experience, this is what it is all about. This was one of the things that was really cool about EQ.
It's not rocket science, the more familiar you are with the rules the more educated your decision will be. The vaguer/unknown they are the more it becomes a guessing game. Regardless of your word salad about how you had to walk uphill both ways back in the day, the rules are the rules and that's the only thing we're asking for. Educated =/= guessing.
Doesn't matter, either way I'll know the way the stats work, it's just gonna require more unnecessary theory crafting on my and others' part.
Not knowing how things work means that if you have the best build you can have at any time that is PURELY because of luck. Giving clear infomation will benefit those who care to master their class and the game in general, not the other way around.
You know how it works, you just don't get a cheat sheet to the exact math. You want that, knock yourself out, go parse for hours, work the math and come up with the details so you can "min/max" in your groups with "you must be this high to ride this ride" wihle you claim that only people with x/y/z gear are capable of doing something. As you said, it isn't rocket science, so there is no need to beg the developers to give you all the formulas on how everything works.
Tanix said:You know how it works, you just don't get a cheat sheet to the exact math. You want that, knock yourself out, go parse for hours, work the math and come up with the details so you can "min/max" in your groups with "you must be this high to ride this ride" wihle you claim that only people with x/y/z gear are capable of doing something. As you said, it isn't rocket science, so there is no need to beg the developers to give you all the formulas on how everything works.
True this. In Martial Arts, your learn the form, then over time through training and application you unlock the power of the form. Through your practice you learn when and where to use it. It a simple and a natual way to do things. Learning a new skill or spell in Pantheon should evolve the same way.
Learning skills in Pantheon will be awesome, because once you do figure it out, then you will need to figure out how colored magic and atmospheres affects skill, spells and abilites as well.
Caine said:True this. In Martial Arts, your learn the form, then over time through training and application you unlock the power of the form. Through your practice you learn when and where to use it. It a simple and a natual way to do things. Learning a new skill or spell in Pantheon should evolve the same way.
Learning skills in Pantheon will be awesome, because once you do figure it out, then you will need to figure out how colored magic and atmospheres affects skill, spells and abilites as well.
Yep. A form learned at white or yellow belt can take on new meaning or application with concepts you get at red or blue belt. Granted what they are suggesting in this game would simply be a document with all the possible applications already spelled out. Good to know but discovery is also one of the best parts of the journey.
FierinaFuryfist said:Caine said:True this. In Martial Arts, your learn the form, then over time through training and application you unlock the power of the form. Through your practice you learn when and where to use it. It a simple and a natual way to do things. Learning a new skill or spell in Pantheon should evolve the same way.
Learning skills in Pantheon will be awesome, because once you do figure it out, then you will need to figure out how colored magic and atmospheres affects skill, spells and abilites as well.
Yep. A form learned at white or yellow belt can take on new meaning or application with concepts you get at red or blue belt. Granted what they are suggesting in this game would simply be a document with all the possible applications already spelled out. Good to know but discovery is also one of the best parts of the journey.
Knowing how to use your abilities or how to play your class isn't the same as knowing that 1 agility will give you 1 ac. Providing the players with information about how their stats and abilities work doesn't tell them how to play the game, it just allows them to better understand what that ability or stat does. The lack of that information creates frustration. The goal here is for all the classes to be easy to understand and hard to master, that is the mark of a good game.
Knowing that feign death drops agro doesn't teach you how to hug corners for line of sight, to make sure a caster isn't mid cast on you, it doesn't tell you how the mobs will path. It just says "fall to the ground, you look dead, agro is dropped". I honestly never thought knowing how stats affected your character or tool tips describing your abilities would be a debated feature.
Fast travel (to a certain degree)
I can take fast travel. Eventually Vanguard also got it, but depending on the location it would cost much money. I rather not see it though.
But as an extreme example what i really dislike it how ESO handles it. There is a wayhrine you can fast travel to every 100-200m in the game. You don't see people walking as they can always teleport near. You can travel for free from shrine to shrine. If you teleport from the map by not using a shrine is cost money which increases if you travel to much though.
At least Vanguard had not that many fast travel locations. But imho fast travel makes to world look so small. (i know some people who don't have much time might want it.)
barod1989 said:i don't to see the old expansions useless becouse the new expansions
This is what made EQ great in those early days. Kunark and Velious didn't make the original content worthless. The raids in all three games were still useful. There were zones in all of them that people still frequented. I don't like seeing the level raised every expansion. You end up with ability bloat and gear resets and no one visits the old content anymore.
EppE said:FierinaFuryfist said:Caine said:True this. In Martial Arts, your learn the form, then over time through training and application you unlock the power of the form. Through your practice you learn when and where to use it. It a simple and a natual way to do things. Learning a new skill or spell in Pantheon should evolve the same way.
Learning skills in Pantheon will be awesome, because once you do figure it out, then you will need to figure out how colored magic and atmospheres affects skill, spells and abilites as well.
Yep. A form learned at white or yellow belt can take on new meaning or application with concepts you get at red or blue belt. Granted what they are suggesting in this game would simply be a document with all the possible applications already spelled out. Good to know but discovery is also one of the best parts of the journey.
Knowing how to use your abilities or how to play your class isn't the same as knowing that 1 agility will give you 1 ac. Providing the players with information about how their stats and abilities work doesn't tell them how to play the game, it just allows them to better understand what that ability or stat does. The lack of that information creates frustration. The goal here is for all the classes to be easy to understand and hard to master, that is the mark of a good game.
Knowing that feign death drops agro doesn't teach you how to hug corners for line of sight, to make sure a caster isn't mid cast on you, it doesn't tell you how the mobs will path. It just says "fall to the ground, you look dead, agro is dropped". I honestly never thought knowing how stats affected your character or tool tips describing your abilities would be a debated feature.
You are saying that you need to know more than Flowing Thought II is more than Flowing Thought I? Isn't it obvious? It increases your mana generation. If Agility is primarly an avoidance stat, but does add some to AC, why does not knowing the exact math frustrate you? Isin't obvious then that a higher agility item will then add more AC than a lower one? The finite may be one item is "slightly" better than another under an exact evaluation, but honestly, if you want that level of detail, parse it. That is the point, that every bit of information needs to be provided so you can make the EXACT best decision.
It is like I said, most cRPGs of the past didn't go to such excessive detail in every aspect.
In fact, this system is exactly what you are asking. It is easy to learn (ie this item is better than that, that stat makes this better). There are no formulas, no deep math to go through, just basic understanding of the benefits. What you are doing on your own is "mastering" this information through play and exploration. So there you go, easy to learn (ie FT1 < FT2) and hard to master (ie parse or through extensive play get the feeling of differences).
Lastly, frustration is such a subjective claim. What you call frustrating, I call fun. I enjoy the mystery, the time to learn about the spells, skills, etc...to master them over time, to understand them through play. I like this because it also separates the players who have developed skill over time. You could always tell who was a real monk (not a twink) by how they pulled. They lacked any real understanding of how the skilled worked in the world. They knew the basics of what it did, but they had no clue how it worked practically in the environment.
For instance here is roughly its description (I used the P1999 version, I can't remember if it differed from the original and I can't find my old manual at the moment).
In their martial studies monks also learn other useful skills, including the ability to move silently and fall safely from great heights. Experienced monks also learn to feign death, slowing their body's functions enough to fool most observers into believing them dead - this trick often allows the monk to escape dangerous situations as monsters wander off, thinking the monk defeated.
No exact math, no info on how the skill level affects the feign percentage. No details about the skill past the basic general description.
Now I am assuming based on your discussion you would want details, something akin to:
"Feigning death can be interrupted if the monster started casting a detrimental spell on the player before he started to feign death. It may also be broken by AoE spells landing on the player feigning death.
Feign Death is commonly used as a pulling tool. When bringing numerous monsters to his group, the puller may snare one of them, then feign death and wait for the monsters to walk away. The snared monster, walking slowlier, then becomes an easy target for a single pull." (everquest wiki)
FD has a base fail rate of 0% at skill level 0 and increases by .35 per point of skill (max 255 skill) to a maximum success rate of 89%.
See, I think the first description is perfect. It gives you the basics, the easy to understand concepts... then you are left to master the skill by learning about it over time.
That is easy to understand, difficult to master.
What you are asking for is all the information to where you don't have to provide any real thinking or learning on your part. You don't have to explore the possibilities, test what it can do in situations, etc...
See, FD was an "emergent" game play skill. It was NEVER designed to be a pulling tool. In fact, they tried to stop it from being used as such by changing the way it worked in Velious. FD by its very existence today is the result of a skill that was simple and easy, without all the numbers where players went out and played the game, learning, evolving, and taking those skills to new levels.
Malleable said:Hmmm. Half the things said I like. And half I don't like. Why should there not be armor dyes??? Hell IRL you can dye/stain stuff.
Mal
imo, dyes trivialize gear. (seem less important, significant, or complex than it really is.)
but I'm open to anything, maybe VR could do it tastefully.
One thing i absolutely do not want to see is quest hubs. I am ok with a quest journal so that i can remember who the heck i talked to, but don't have flashing exclamation points and don't move me from place to place to progress my gameplay. Don't show my next destination on the map. I am ok with progressive quests and even repeatable tasks. But don't lump the quest givers all into little camps and don't dictate my gameplay. I want an open discoverable world, i want to log online and be lost for a minute. I don't want a story that i have to progress through from point A to Z.
Everyones armor looking the same at high level.
wehted said:Reminds me of orc sashes and goblin ears from EQ. These kinds of retrieval quests were a good way to encourage grouping, and also slowed down the game, because npcs that dropped these items were generally not soloable by players within the designed quest level range.
Gnoll Fangs in Qeynos. Loved it.