Been speaking with a few people outside the forums about Pantheon, current state of the game etc. These are all people who definately plan on purchasing and playing the game upon release, but have not pledged or have only pledged at a supporter level. Looking thru the Pantheon discord i see the same thing, a tremendous amount of people at beta (or lower) levels of pledge status. I am sure everyone who has taken the time to sign up to these forums and discord etc, understands that the developers are highly skilled and experienced, know what it takes to create this amazing game and how to achieve that end. That being said why are so many followers still uncommitted? If you just cannot afford say a $250.00 pledge (or not know of a way to hide it from the wife) i understand. But for everyone else, i can only assume you do not see the value in it. So lets break it down.
Lets just start with the #1 benefit to Champion level pledge. Alpha access. It is coming. Do you really want to sit out for 6 months or longer while everyone else is exploring Terminus waiting for beta or release? Could you?? I am not going to try and shine a light on the cool litlle clickies, potions, name reservations etc, but instead the benfit and value. This release will have a subscription model. (hopefully $20.00 + per month) So lets say Alpha and Beta together lasts 12 months, there is $240.00, not to mention two digital copies of the game prob around $50.00 ea, totalling min $100.00 for a value of well over $300.00 dollars oh wait there is a 3 month subscription included another $60.00 or so. Our total is looking closer to $400.00 now. That is a goood deal, a bargain if you will. The name in the credits, with a $250.00 pledge does that make you an Executive Producer? I think technically it may. At anyrate what are you waiting for, go pledge and get the fancy orange name in Discord chat.
Remember, Alpha is coming.
You also have to consider the risk.
This is like a Kickstarter - you aren't guaranteed a thing. You are hopeful that the funding will be enough that the game reaches finality, and launches. But it's never a guarantee, and you don't have a contract saying such. Thus, if the team somehow fails, or things go sideways and the game doesn't come to completion, you could be out $250.
I don't think it will happen, or at least the margin for that happening is very small. But there's still a chance, and thus there is still a risk.
I can afford to spare $5 a month for now, to keep the team in business and the project rolling.
What you also are failing to account for, is that I only pay $5 a month, but it adds up when there's say 100 of us paying that much. Every. Month.
Not once, not a couple times. Every. Month.
I run a Patreon page myself, and I'll tell you that I'd rather have 10 guys giving me $2 a month vs. one guy giving me $100 once.
Just consider the ramifications of having a monthy revenue stream during development. Even if it is to just pay for coffees for the office.
Economincs put to the side, many people do not want to play a non-finished game. When Pantheon is released to Alpha the game is not going to be polished. There will be bugs and glitches and 100 other items that will make you ask why am I playing this game before it is released. Some people would rather wait for the game to be ready for release then to mess around in Alpha and write bug reports.
Same thing with kickstarter games (Computer and board). People can get a lot more for their money putting money down during the Kickstarter; however, others want to wait until the product is released and maybe watch/read a few reviews before putting their money down.
Because of how customers have been treated through the years by companies, I am very much against prepurchasing products that can easily change in nature. So I fully understand people who "only" pledge at betalevel or those who wait for release.
If a product does not come to market because people didn't want to pay for it before they knew what they were getting then so be it.
Having said that, I gave them 250 dollars because I'm looking for a game where I want to spend a lot of hours. Pantheon, I think, has a good chance of being that game.
You mention some benefits and try to add a monetary value to them.
However, a lot of them are not at all important to some people.
In my eyes nice but meaningless:
Good but also exist in the $100 pledge:
The good, and why I paid $150 extra:
And really, it's just the Alpha. But 3 months sub has actual, tangible value. So I paid 150 extra, sans whatever 3 months sub will be, just so I can help test a game that I hope will be good.
Adding to that we don't know what the uptime will be like on the alpha servers
I can see how $250 would be quite a lot to ask for many people. Makes me glad I got the Patron's Pledge when $150 got me alpha access. XD Only thing it doesn't get me is a fancy orange discord name for silly reasons haha.
Pledging and pledge levels will always be a personal decision, though. Everyone's finances and levels of willingness to commit money will be different.
Why would I spend such amounts of money on a game when I have no guarantee that it will meet my expectations or needs?
Do you know how many MMOs I have alpha/beta'd that resulted in games that were completely in violation to their initial mission statements?
I want Pantheon to be what it says, I am willing to spend a bit of money to support that, but they can't even establish to a specific point on how the death penalty will be and you want me to spend 100's of dollars knowing I may not get anything anywhere near what I was hoping for?
I respect your admiration and postive outlook, but do you know how many Kickstarters have been failed by such?
I am not one of the crowds to say Pantheon will not be released, but I am one to say I am unwilling to spend a ton of money for a game I am not completely sure has the same ideals I have. I mean, generally it does, but there are many things, IMPORTANT things that are deal breakers for me. So no, I won't blindly throw money without a means for return.
That is not proper risk vs reward.
It is IMPORTANT to note that Alpha access isn't "pre-release game play". You are testing. You are not exploring the world nor playing as you choose to. You are being told... Go here. Test this. Go here. Test this. In addition, the "world" will not be accessible to you all the time. You will only be accessing the "world" at times that they say you will... Like, "Log on Tuesday from 5:00pm to 3:00am. We will be testing 'a_keep_01' for tonight." "Unrestricted" game testing isn't going to be happening until well into beta, possibly not even until open beta.
I Pledged at the $500 level. Not for the perks, but because I want to see the game succeed. If it goes under, or becomes a game that I don't want to play.... Well, that's a risk I am willing to take.
Kalok said:It is IMPORTANT to note that Alpha access isn't "pre-release game play". You are testing. You are not exploring the world nor playing as you choose to. You are being told... Go here. Test this. Go here. Test this. In addition, the "world" will not be accessible to you all the time. You will only be accessing the "world" at times that they say you will... Like, "Log on Tuesday from 5:00pm to 3:00am. We will be testing 'a_keep_01' for tonight." "Unrestricted" game testing isn't going to be happening until well into beta, possibly not even until open beta.
I Pledged at the $500 level. Not for the perks, but because I want to see the game succeed. If it goes under, or becomes a game that I don't want to play.... Well, that's a risk I am willing to take.
This! I have had immense trust in Brad and Co. since the EQ days. Also enjoyed Vanguard. Both had issues with the "parent company" that eventually clashed with the McQuaid Ideal. I'm extremely excited to play a McQuaid title under his own publishing company. Less red tape. More artistic freedom.
I thought it was worth it just for alpha access. But there are people that aren't really looking to play until the game is polished or that understand alpha is *work* if done right. Remember when the developers used to pay *us* to test their games. I certainly do.
Obviously if you can afford $250 without cutting back on anything else you may want to pay for that makes the decision a bit easier.
I did the Adviser's Pledge once I saw their Tweet that they had the funds to make the game and launch it. At this point, any extra money they are getting is just "icing on the cake" and helps it along to a smooth finish. I also did it so I could test and help find bugs. I have a very good feeling this game will make it and I wanted to do my part to help.
I pledged at $250. Also did $5 a month for a year+ before I pledged.
I really had a hard time letting go knowing this thing may never see a release date. And that is still possible.
Was only 6-7 months ago that the monthly news letter was hiring after "finding out the project had been revived"
Look at Ashes of Creation. they basically said, 'um. sorry, check back in a year?' (or two...) and left it at that. AoC was further along than Pantheon.
Now it's "we'll let you know something when we know something" until then please stand by.... indefinitely.
That same thing can happen to Pantheon. They run out of money. No angel backers, boom. game goes to an indefinite hold. Alpha hasn't even started yet. this game is 2 years away at best. it's super easy to run out of money in 2 years.
All that said. I pledged to check out the game a few times during Alpha, but I really won't mess with Alpha much. I want to play a finished game.
I can understand why Many do not give $250 +
a- the world does not starts and ends in the US. the world is somewhat bigger, for many people who would love to play this MMO 250$ is half of their monthly salary.
also- 20$? for subscription? ha, I hope you are joking, if it is not between ~10$ to ~15$, people will not play it, its too expensive for a game. ( ~15$ for monthly, ~12$ for 3 month sub, and ~10$ for yearly sub)
b- the game is still a risk, i personally backed money on several failed projects: EQnext ( landmark), heroes song, repopulation, kings and heroes, albion online, and others. and only one of these game got properly released, and its still a dissapointment. and i dont even mention people who backed star citizen or shroud of the avatar.
so you know, once bitten twice shy.
c- from the following:
the only things from that list that actually worth money are : 2 copies of the game and 3 month of subscription.
and if the game is going to have free-demo option with upgrade to subscription, then the two digital copies are well; worthless.
so economics of the challenger pledge, its a donation, just like you donate to some kind of charity and get a sticker in return its the same, if you think its a worthy cause you donate to the game, depend on your availible income.
Any amount of time in a game whether its testing or pre-release access gives you an advantage over other players. Some people are able to put a value to that.
When I looked at pledging, i considered both the alpha and beta pledge levels and broke it down like this:
2 digital copies of the game is valued at ~$120. Since I plan on dual boxing this is a great benefit to me.
3 months of game time is valued at ~$45.
So even before considering the amount I would be willing to pay for alpha or beta I already have 165 dollars in value.
Which means as long as i value alpha and beta at $85 or more I'm breaking even. Beta is obviously a more consistent testing phase and will likely be at least a few months... so consider the months in beta worth $15 each and I justify that I'm really just paying around 4 dollars for alpha access. Which I'm ok with.
I also know that most likely Pantheon will be the last MMO I play so anything I can contribute to give it a better chance at success, I'm ok with.
Maybe when we get closer i will commit more. I have seen a lot of games be developed over the years. Everyone of them on track to be the bestest game ever to be created, the by the best team of developers and the most fantastic fan base.
Then the message comes "Due to unforeseen circumstances beyond our control, despite our best efforts and intentions, due to the highly competitive market place and stake holders expectations we must make the best decision possible for our game and our community. It is with a heavy heart I bring to you that Amazon has bought controlling interest; were are moving the lumberjack engine, removing fall damage, adding an in-game store, a dungeon-finder, rewarding XP for death and adding flying mounts on rails that will have their own social media button you can spam."
The text in bold should seem familar. but despite all that I am really optimistic. If Pantheon does not work out, honestly I go back to pencil and paper D&D, which I try to do anyway, it just harder to get a consistant group going.
They do have my full support and I spread the word everyday about Pantheon. I just seen so many failed projects.
As other have basically said, pledges are basically a bet that the game will be released.
So many games have failed, or just been horrible games. The number of "pre-release","alpha access" games on Steam is incredible.
IMHO, the market is over-saturated with mediocre games. While the player base is much larger these days, they are spread out over many more games. And IMHO, many of the more recent games are just copies of each other with new names, world layouts, but the same boring gameplay.
Many players are disillusioned with anything that is not real and released now.
I have deliberately opted out of alpha access because I cannot commit to testing an unfinished product. That's why I chose the 150$ Protector's Pledge. Recently, I made another 100$ donation to express my continued support and confidence, so it's not primarily a money issue for me. I just don't see the point in reserving an alpha seat for myself.
*sigh*
I walk in a room and I sink half way through the floor, what looks like a door i cant go through and instead I stumble through a side wall into a black space and then fall- into the middle of the zone outside and mobs are frozen and I can loot them. "Hey! I found the illusory zone! I found some treasure area! the map must be crazy!" I shout and tell all my friends.
I would be a lousy tester.
The point on monthly income is a good one. A stready stream is important. Remember when people paid for sigs? it wasnt much, but people did. I paid for art. When there was a seperate discussion as to what people would pay for a dreamed up polished product per month? I put my money where my mouth is, so-to-speak, and upped my monthly contribution to match that.
I could possibly beta test or even alpha but I dont want to. I want to log in as a newb.
It is entirely possible that VR will reduce the benefits of some or all pledge levels in the future. Not take-away benefits but give less to new people that pledge at those levels. This has, of course, been done more than once. That is a reason to upgrade now, or at least soon, if you can afford it and want some of those benefits.
It is also entirely possible that VR will add new pledge levels that give different benefits that appeal to different people. Or will give a benefit for upgrading (go from one level to a higher level and get an additional character slot for example) .
So apart from wanting to support the game more generously and looking only at advantages to the pledger - one can argue it is best to do it now and one can argue it is best to wait.
I've started to reply to this thread a few times now, but always stopped myself. However, I feel compelled to offer my opinion, so I won't stop this time :)
Full disclosure: I'm a VIP pledge currently and have been for some time. I don't think that should influence anyone else in their decision on how much to pledge but I want to be transparent about it, because I'm going to talk about why I pledged as much as I did. There are really two reasons that I pledged to Pantheon.
1) I believe in the vision for Pantheon, and personally I am hoping for it to be somewhat of a spiritual successor to Vanguard. I also believe that the industry needs worlds like that right now, to help remind everyone of what MMORPGs can really be if we allow them to fulfill their potential.
2) With very few exceptions, I have been very impressed with the people in this forum community - just about everyone I have interacted with tends to have their hearts in the "right" place, even when we disagree, and I can't help but be moved by the passion I see in many posts and threads.
So, I wanted the game to succeed for myself personally, for the industry as a whole, and for us as a community. Given that I can't code my way out of a paper bag, and VR doesn't really need a volunteer designer, the best way for me to help Pantheon achieve that was to simply pledge as much as I was comfortable with. Believe me, If I could have pledged more without wreaking havoc on my own personal finances, I probably would have.
"Perks" never entered into the decision.
Even today, two years later, I don't think of myself as any different from anyone else here. I pledged the money that I did, simply because I had that much money available to pledge. It doesn't make my happiness or my opinion any more valuable than someone who only has $25 to pledge.
What matters isn't how much money you pledge, it's the fact that you're willing to put something in to help support the game. The "perks" you get from pledging are just an acknowledgement for that contribution. The real reward of any pledge is going to be seeing Pantheon succeed and grow for years to come. I can guarantee you that the people at VR appreciate each and every supporter they get, regardless of how much money that person puts in - because each supporter is another person who believes in what they're trying to do.
So, my advice to everyone who's on the fence about upgrading their pledge is to not think about the perks so much. Instead, think about what it means for Pantheon. More money in pledges helps VR hire additional developers and artists to move the project along faster. THAT is the real reason to pledge, no matter what tier you're looking at.
Regardless of how much any of us pledge, we will ALL be there, side by side, on launch day when the servers open. That's the day we're all really waiting for. That's the stage that matters most. Not alpha, not beta, but the actual retail launch - the day when we can log into Pantheon and start showing the world that this kind of MMORPG can succeed and grow.
I would encourage everyone to decide for themselves how much they're comfortable pledging, and not to overthink things beyond that. Don't view pledge tiers as some kind of rank. Don't view them as an investment you need a return on. Just look at them as a way to help Pantheon get to launch faster, because that is the best pledge reward of them all.
Hemlock said:That being said why are so many followers still uncommitted?
- Alpha access
- 3 Months Game Subscription
For $150 more, the above is not worth it to me. The only other thing that matters in the slightest would be the ring, but if it is anything more than good for 10 levels or a meaningless cosmetic clicky, the game has pay-to-win issues.
Nephele said:I've started to reply to this thread a few times now, but always stopped myself. However, I feel compelled to offer my opinion, so I won't stop this time :)
Full disclosure: I'm a VIP pledge currently and have been for some time. I don't think that should influence anyone else in their decision on how much to pledge but I want to be transparent about it, because I'm going to talk about why I pledged as much as I did. There are really two reasons that I pledged to Pantheon.
1) I believe in the vision for Pantheon, and personally I am hoping for it to be somewhat of a spiritual successor to Vanguard. I also believe that the industry needs worlds like that right now, to help remind everyone of what MMORPGs can really be if we allow them to fulfill their potential.
2) With very few exceptions, I have been very impressed with the people in this forum community - just about everyone I have interacted with tends to have their hearts in the "right" place, even when we disagree, and I can't help but be moved by the passion I see in many posts and threads.
So, I wanted the game to succeed for myself personally, for the industry as a whole, and for us as a community. Given that I can't code my way out of a paper bag, and VR doesn't really need a volunteer designer, the best way for me to help Pantheon achieve that was to simply pledge as much as I was comfortable with. Believe me, If I could have pledged more without wreaking havoc on my own personal finances, I probably would have.
"Perks" never entered into the decision.
Even today, two years later, I don't think of myself as any different from anyone else here. I pledged the money that I did, simply because I had that much money available to pledge. It doesn't make my happiness or my opinion any more valuable than someone who only has $25 to pledge.
What matters isn't how much money you pledge, it's the fact that you're willing to put something in to help support the game. The "perks" you get from pledging are just an acknowledgement for that contribution. The real reward of any pledge is going to be seeing Pantheon succeed and grow for years to come. I can guarantee you that the people at VR appreciate each and every supporter they get, regardless of how much money that person puts in - because each supporter is another person who believes in what they're trying to do.
So, my advice to everyone who's on the fence about upgrading their pledge is to not think about the perks so much. Instead, think about what it means for Pantheon. More money in pledges helps VR hire additional developers and artists to move the project along faster. THAT is the real reason to pledge, no matter what tier you're looking at.
Regardless of how much any of us pledge, we will ALL be there, side by side, on launch day when the servers open. That's the day we're all really waiting for. That's the stage that matters most. Not alpha, not beta, but the actual retail launch - the day when we can log into Pantheon and start showing the world that this kind of MMORPG can succeed and grow.
I would encourage everyone to decide for themselves how much they're comfortable pledging, and not to overthink things beyond that. Don't view pledge tiers as some kind of rank. Don't view them as an investment you need a return on. Just look at them as a way to help Pantheon get to launch faster, because that is the best pledge reward of them all.
Hear, hear! Well said as always and I agree 100%.