DracoKalen said:zoltar said:DracoKalen said:zoltar said:DracoKalen said:I would like to see progeny not be specifically tied to class. If I start as a paladin I don't want to have to be tied to that for the rest of my reincarnations. Maybe tie it to race reincarnated as,like you choose to become a dwarf you become even more resilient to cold atmosphere's and as you reincarnate those stack.
This could work IF you have to sacrifice your character. If you don't, then progeny just becomes leveling alts.
sacrifice your character?
yes. Sacrifice/retire/etc. The point of the progeny system is to give people a reason to go through the leveling process again. Retiring the character was part of the original concept.
People already have a large incentive to level alts. So if progeny just becomes leveling alts, what was the point?
As far as unlocking race/cass combos, the problem I see is that in order for lore to be maintained, you might need to restrict it too much for it to be seen as a general game system. I do think unlocking certain race/class combos is a great idea, but I'd rather see it done via questing in a way that is specific to each race and class.
ahh.. Got it. I guess I was looking at it as you were reincarnating your character into one of your progeny.
There was an issue with the way it was described here originally. They gave a justification that the progeny character was the old characters offspring instead of it being the same character reincarnated. Most people here seem to not have experience with these type of systems so they took that at face value and dont realize that it is the same character. There is no reason for a name change. It is simply the same character continuing to progress but having to relevel to do so.
I think there wouldn't be so much confusion if it had been explained better.
DracoKalen said:I would like to see progeny not be specifically tied to class. If I start as a paladin I don't want to have to be tied to that for the rest of my reincarnations. Maybe tie it to race reincarnated as,like you choose to become a dwarf you become even more resilient to cold atmosphere's and as you reincarnate those stack.
This could work IF you have to sacrifice your character. If you don't, then progeny just becomes leveling alts.
sacrifice your character?
yes. Sacrifice/retire/etc. The point of the progeny system is to give people a reason to go through the leveling process again. Retiring the character was part of the original concept.
People already have a large incentive to level alts. So if progeny just becomes leveling alts, what was the point? As far as unlocking race/cass combos, the problem I see is that in order for lore to be maintained, you might need to restrict it too much for it to be seen as a general game system. I do think unlocking certain race/class combos is a great idea, but I'd rather see it done via questing in a way that is specific to each race and class.
ahh.. Got it. I guess I was looking at it as you were reincarnating your character into one of your progeny.
There was an issue with the way it was described here originally. They gave a justification that the progeny character was the old characters offspring instead of it being the same character reincarnated. Most people here seem to not have experience with these type of systems so they took that at face value and dont realize that it is the same character. There is no reason for a name change. It is simply the same character continuing to progress but having to relevel to do so.
I think there wouldn't be so much confusion if it had been explained better.
Yes. I've seen that confusion in a few comments and I guess we'll have to wait till they provide more details, or clarification. But as I had to pledge more money just to get a second character slot that leads me to believe they are trying to minimize the alt-storm and thus progeny would be a reincarnation or retiring of the 50th level parent. But that's just supposition on my part.
I'm not a fan of any progeny system that requires de-leveling, even if I were able to bring that character back to max level at any time I desired. If there were even slight bonuses to be given by leveling a character up again as a progeny I would feel compelled to do it, despite my desire not to. When I reach max level, I want to remain that level and complete horizontal type progress until an expansion is released with a higher level cap. I would, however, be in favor of a progeny system that provided small bonuses to level alternate characters of the same race as your original character. For example, if I am an elven enchanter and I reach level 50, an epic racial quest could be completed to give my elven alt characters a slight passive mana regeneration buff. However, this mana regeneration buff should only linger until around level 35 - 40, to prevent the need for max level characters to be a progeny of some sort. For example, I would not want a level 50 elven druid with built-in passive mana regeneration buff to be a possibility due to a progeny system.
While I think this sounds cool on paper I don't think it would work for anyone outside of the person who only plays to level characters.
Example "Sorry guys can't raid for 6 months I started my character over!"
The "end game" solution to this would be level 2 characters of the same class. Progeny one and level them over while the other stays at max level to raid. Once the progeny reachs max level you progeny the second character, and level again. This ensures you always have a raiding character. It sounds miserable.
Allow me to "sync" my level to any group so I can join them. Take the average level of everyone else in the group not being sync'd and put me at that level. Say I want to duo with a friend who just started playing. I'm max level and he's level 15. I sync to level 15. I only have access to my level 15 spells and my stats all have a hard cap. I join a group with 4 level 20's and myself and a friend Sync to their level. We're now both level 20.
This is the system I prefer. You could offer a daily exp bonus for playing sync'd or something like that. You need to offer rewards in order to push people into lower level content.
@Eppe There will be a mentor system as well that allows you to delevel temporarily in order to group with a lower lvl friend. That doesn't solve the high end bottleneck issue though.
As soon as a raid mob spawns everyone is still on their max lvl character racing to the mob. By having the option to reincarnate and relevel through progeny it relieves some of the high end bottleneck.
vjek said:So, these 3/4 items would, in any meaningful implementation, make it a requirement to have Progeny(x) characters. As in, everyone would be expected to have levelling up x number of times to match the current power ceiling. That's the powerful side of the chasm of balance. :)
"
- The Progeny character gets some minor boosts for being Progeny. You can then proceed through the game's content in whatever way you like.
- While playing as a Progeny, there are additional challenges/quests/achievements you can complete.
- Your original character record is saved when you create the Progeny. At any point, you can choose to merge your progeny back with the parent character.
- When you merge the progeny back with the parent character, all those special progeny challenges/achievements you gained unlock special rewards for the newly merged character. Rewards could be equipment with unique appearances, special crafting recipes, minor stat boosts - really anything that might be desirable as a level 50 without being super overpowering."
If the "minor boosts" aren't more than a single piece of gear could offer, no-one would do it. If they're more, everyone would do it. Knife edge.
If the progeny specific content offers non-combat or combat advantages, again, in the same realm of power as the statement above? knife edge.
If the merging process results in non-combat or combat advantages, again, in the same realm of power as the statement above? knife edge.There's no way to make it "without being super overpowering" and attractive enough to actually do, concurrently, is the issue. The only way to make it attractive enough is to make it overpowering. That would be the whole point, as it would need to be overpowering in order to be a greater attractant than an entirely separate level 50 on an entirely separate account. (which, by their own admission, you could two box.. however you may feel about that)
Totally agree with this. To make Progeny enticing, it has to give you meaningful benefits of doing so. Especially if you have to retire your max level character.
I also agree that progeny may become a requirement if it gives too much of a boost (in addition may cause balancing issues).
If not handled properly I can see Guilds and/or Groups requiring Progerny 3 level 50 characters (assuming you can stack progeny benefits, if not stackable they may still requiring the character to be post-progeny).
Progeny should be tied to something more than max level, otherwise that will incentivize guilds/players to power level their characters to cycle through Progeny level(s) as quickly as possible rather than re-experience the game as a different class or in a different part of the Pantheon world.
Fortesque said:
Progeny should be tied to something more than max level, otherwise that will incentivize guilds/players to power level their characters to cycle through Progeny level(s) as quickly as possible rather than re-experience the game as a different class or in a different part of the Pantheon world.
The benefits can very easily be designed in a way to incentivize people to play other race/class combos. Nothing is official here at this point of course, but other games do exactly that. I'm unsure why you think that people wouldn't: " re-experience the game as a different class or in a different part of the Pantheon world."?
Though personally, I don't see why it matters if people play a new class or not?...as long as the high end bottleneck is being relieved.
philo said:Fortesque said:
Progeny should be tied to something more than max level, otherwise that will incentivize guilds/players to power level their characters to cycle through Progeny level(s) as quickly as possible rather than re-experience the game as a different class or in a different part of the Pantheon world.
The benefits can very easily be designed in a way to incentivize people to play other race/class combos. Nothing is official here at this point of course, but other games do exactly that. I'm unsure why you think that people wouldn't: " re-experience the game as a different class or in a different part of the Pantheon world."?
Though personally, I don't see why it matter if people play a new class or not?...as long as the high end bottleneck is being relieved.
Everyone is different, obviously. But for myself, I prefer to dabble in a few race class combinations fairly early on until I find one that fits my playstyle and preferences the best, then that is my main. That is the one I choose to fully flesh out. At no point in any mmo have I desired to just shelf a main never to return. Nor have I ever made a second character of the same race/class to build up again.
Have you played a game with a progeny type of system fey? It sounds like exactly what you are looking for. It is the ultimate way to fully flesh out the class you prefer to play.
It is a misconception that you have to " shelf a main". You get to do more than simply lvl and gear them up. You earn other benefits for your character as well. Imagine if the max lvl was 50 but you had the option to gain a tiny benefit (not actual levels of power type of benefit) if you earned experience equivelent to getting level 60. That's what this is.
The benefit from a development/community point of view is, among other things, relieving the high end bottleneck. It's just like AA's...only it solves some of the bottleneck issue.
I don't know why I'm replying here actually lol. I told myself I wasn't going to reply to progeny threads anymore a year or 2 ago because of all the misunderstanding.
Feyshtey said:philo said:*stuff about pantheon*
You don't know that. Neither do I for that matter.
Huh? We can only go by our experience with these type of systems. It's not a new idea. You could say that about anything that isn't confirmed at this point...
Based on what I've read so far, it's hard for me to assign value to the Progeny system. It appears to merely be a means of recycling content through grinding. In a raid guild, players would need to level two of the same class, one to keep at level 50 able to participate in end-game content and one to re-roll/re-level during off hours. Each time one hits fifty the player would reroll the other as long as he or she could easily swap gear between them.
Over time this would increase the barrier of entry for new players wishing to join post release. I'd rather be charged a couple of dollars more a month for VR to hire the necessary people to consistently produce content than implement an unnecessarily repetitious system that increases the barrier of entry for new players. Then again, I’m also a fan of limiting server mergers.
SO i think what a lot of what's missing in this thread is what this does. No matter how it's implimented the system is taking players at max level and giving them a chance to experience the world again. If you levelled say 20-30 in one zone the first time, this time you can try another zone. It not only helps with max level players demanding new max level content, but enables you to play content you might have missed the first time. I know on EQ there were multiple places to level and people would be there because of factors such as proximity to where they are, access to vendors, the ability to train close by etc. This game is about exploring the world and it is highly unlikely you'll be able to do this on just one character so they've given you an option to see it all, while still having it mean something. I agree that having it increase stats or giving too much of an advantage will lead to bad times, but from I've read here you all are very over concerned with being max level. The game seems to be enjoyable at any level and they are doing away with max level being king. I get that you could do this as an alt but if you have a benefit to progeny then you're more likely to do that instead of rolling an alt. I will be very interested to see what VR comes up with for this system and from what i know of them, it won't be like anything we've seen!
Cheers!
mountaingoat said:SO i think what a lot of what's missing in this thread is what this does. No matter how it's implimented the system is taking players at max level and giving them a chance to experience the world again. If you levelled say 20-30 in one zone the first time, this time you can try another zone. It not only helps with max level players demanding new max level content, but enables you to play content you might have missed the first time.
Which is good, but isn't what you describe a mentoring system rather that a progeny ditto? Anyway, I fail to see how this cannot be achieved with rolling an alt? That way, your level 50 is resting while you play the alt, thus relieving the top-heavy issue, but it can always be woken up to partake in raids or other high-level activities. The only downside I can see is that any reputation you may have built in the community does not easily carry over, but a family name may help here?
EppE said:Allow me to "sync" my level to any group so I can join them. Take the average level of everyone else in the group not being sync'd and put me at that level. Say I want to duo with a friend who just started playing. I'm max level and he's level 15. I sync to level 15. I only have access to my level 15 spells and my stats all have a hard cap. I join a group with 4 level 20's and myself and a friend Sync to their level. We're now both level 20.This is the system I prefer. You could offer a daily exp bonus for playing sync'd or something like that. You need to offer rewards in order to push people into lower level content.
A strong mentor system is definitely critical to keeping low- and mid-level content relevant and populated. Perhaps more critical than anything a progeny system could offer.
Naunet said:A strong mentor system is definitely critical to keeping low- and mid-level content relevant and populated. Perhaps more critical than anything a progeny system could offer.
While they are related, I tend to feel that the high end bottleneck is a bigger issue than there being a low amount of people in a certain leveling range.
Having limited content is more of an issue than having a limited number of people to group with.
Progeny solves both. Mentoring only solves 1.
philo said:While they are related, I tend to feel that the high end bottleneck is a bigger issue than there being a low amount of people in a certain leveling range.Having limited content is more of an issue than having a limited number of people to group with.
Progeny solves both. Mentoring only solves 1.
If the game provides incentives to go back to that low- and mid-level content for level-appropriate rewards so long as you're synced down, then it can help with content issues at level cap as well.
Progeny probably sounds great to anyone that only plays one character but for people like me who have a main that raids and many alts (usually one of each class) who all level up hense keeping lower content active for new players as well, progeny sounds bad. If it is something that adds power to my main it will kill my alts.
We know that Progeny is intended as a major differentiating feature of Pantheon if they can get a good system that works well. Yes, we have seen similar things in games like DDO but systems like this are not very common and given VR's emphasis on it I think we can expect something a *lot* more fleshed out and integral to the game than we have seen elsewhere. Assuming they can come up with a system they think is good enough to play this role in the game. Thus, I agree with those that say that comment is premature because we have no idea what Progeny will look like.
This is not to say that we cannot and should not suggest what we want, and more importantly do *not* want in the system. Ideas for VR to look at is one of the *purposes* for a development forum.
They have said that they prefer us not to comment on Progeny yet and that such comments are premature. I read this as meaning that we should not and can not meaningfully comment on what VR intends to do. Which I agree with. But I have never seen VR object to comments on what we would *like* them to do.
In other words - "I like Progeny" or "Progeny is awful" are meaningless at best since we have no idea what Progeny will be like. But "I hope Progeny does XXXX" or "If Progeny does YYY it will be awful" are a different matter entirely.
Of course, Progeny and mentoring are entirely separate matters. We will almost surely have some form of mentoring together with Progeny. The two systems overlap a little in terms of the problems they address and the opportunities they provide but they have quite different approaches to doing such. This is as it should be - just as the fact that one class can be a healer neither does nor should invalidate having a totally different class *also* be a healer.
Splitpaw I am not sure at all that you have it right - maybe you do, we will see when Progeny is released. But quite possibly Progeny will prove to be something that encourages the creation and playing of alts by enabling them to have certain features of the ...Progenized .... character. Quite possibly it will not be to the liking of those that only play one character because the result of Progenization will not *be* that same character and they will only be able to use the system by playing alts which is anathma to them though to you and I it is the lifeblood of a MMO. We will see.
All emphasis added by me....
philo said:It is a misconception that you have to " shelf a main". You get to do more than simply lvl and gear them up. You earn other benefits for your character as well. Imagine if the max lvl was 50 but you had the option to gain a tiny benefit (not actual levels of power type of benefit) if you earned experience equivelent to getting level 60. That's what this is.
The benefit from a development/community point of view is, among other things, relieving the high end bottleneck. It's just like AA's...only it solves some of the bottleneck issue.
I don't know why I'm replying here actually lol. I told myself I wasn't going to reply to progeny threads anymore a year or 2 ago because of all the misunderstanding.
Food for thought : https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
Additional food for thought: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3056/the-progeny-system-what-say-you/view/page/1
Kilsin said:If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
I will grant that these are from years ago, and it has been stated by devs that the entire system is subject to change. But based on the only official stance we have, and interpretation of questions asked of the community by the Community Manager, I think there's a compelling case to be made that I am not the one that misunderstands the potential outcomes here.
Yep, this is what it actually says: " Carry on your legacy with progeny—retire a character and have his or her child resume the adventure " and " Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things). "
That's it. And the fundamental logical problems with those public design goals have been highlighted repeatedly, and no further clarification has been forthcoming, other than: Wait. Trust us.
I'm sure that'll work out fine. :)
Based on all the public information to date, if "noticeably better" is greater than the effect of one gear slot, everyone will be expected to utilize Progeny, until it's maximum, or until they have an additional 22 slots of player power, effectively, or indefinitely.
Alternately, if it's not as good as the effect of one gear slot, no-one will ever use it.
And overshadowing all of that is.. it's a time investment issue. If you're going to spend the same amount of time, and two boxing is approved, then you should level up another two characters, because then you have another two characters worth of power projection available. :| Even if you levelled them up and then cancelled their subs, it's still better to have two max level characters on ice versus one that is 4.5% better.
As discussed in other threads - over time MMOs tend to develop a bottleneck at maximum level, with many characters at that level looking for things to do. I think it is clear beyond dispute that Progeny as originally outlined focused on *replacing* characters that were Progenized rather than improving them. The child, as vjek correctly says, might grow to the same level and be more powerful than the Projenized character had been but this is a separate character not the original one. Quite likely the whole idea was to lessen the bottleneck since in a game like Pantheon getting a new character to level-cap is not a quick process.
This may ...or may not ... be what VR has in mind now. This may ...or may not ... be what VR has in mind at release. But it certainly is what they *had* in mind.
Nephele I would like to see this fleshed out to include races, too. So you coulf pick a class in that race that might not be available in other races.
I think this would satisfy alt-oholics while still keeping the blockchainish security of one IP and one account. Additionally it would satisfy the armchair travelers- such as myself- where I could go to other cities and do quests and learn the peoples ways and maybe discover a quest for a neat minor clicky item that will last through all levels.
I am a fan of quests, sometimes just sitting around and killing stuff can get boring.
Manouk said:Nephele I would like to see this fleshed out to include races, too. So you coulf pick a class in that race that might not be available in other races.
I think this would satisfy alt-oholics while still keeping the blockchainish security of one IP and one account. Additionally it would satisfy the armchair travelers- such as myself- where I could go to other cities and do quests and learn the peoples ways and maybe discover a quest for a neat minor clicky item that will last through all levels.
I am a fan of quests, sometimes just sitting around and killing stuff can get boring.
I'm kind of torn on the race thing but I get where you're coming from (because I'm one of those people that will go make alts of every race just to see what the experience is like).
When I came up with the idea I was trying to think of a way to get around the whole "retire a character" stumbling block but still keep the resulting progeny closely associated with the original main so that the identity of the character is preserved. Example: The dwarven warrior Barad Steeltoe hits level 50, and after a while he decides to hand up his axe and go drink lots of ale instead with his vast piles of wealth from his adventuring career. But his nephew Vasran Steeltoe picks up the family business and follows in his uncle's footsteps. A few months later, there's a great orc uprising, and the lands are threatened, so old Barad comes out of retirement to fight off the threat (and sends that youngling Vasran back to guard the children, where he'll probably be safe).
I realize that's a very RP perspective for me to have, but I think it's important that however the progeny system works, we can present it in-fiction. If it just amounts to "hit level 50 and then make an alt with a bonus", then it doesn't really fit well as part of the world, at least not in my view.
Anyway, that was a ramble and a half, but hopefully it makes sense. Either way, I hope that we see more info on progeny and high-level bottlenecks from the devs soon. I know it's a topic on a lot of people's minds.