I read the newsletter today and enjoyed the information around the in-game weather systems. I find weather systems to be very importand and crucial to in-game immersion. They set the mood/tone and can make any region elicit a feeling or emotion.. fear.. dread.. happiness even. However, when I read the information about the new possible weather effects I was very saddened to see that these sytems which bring buffs / debuffs were immediately explained. I've not even stepped one foot into Terminus and yet I already know how to overcome an in game mechanic. Not exactly mind you but I have a very good Idea of what to do.
Just imagine if you don't know how to handle a blizzard or a dense fog or swamp mist when you encounter it. Imagine you get your butt whooped in the swamp by a horde of slime covered skeletons. Don't you feel this would leave a lasting impact on you? I think it would. However, now you just need to know that there is some specific item you need that will let you counter the effects of said environment woe. We just need to find it. We have not even played the game and this mechanic has been laid out for everyone to see. I know that once these things are discovered they are all over the internet in the true bog of Reddit or youTube videos with nerdy kids stuttering and stammering to walk you through the successful acquisition of some powerful artifact. Not all of this is bad but in most cases it has a negative affect on a gamer's experience if they didn't have to figure it out on their own.
So I would like to ask the makers of Pantheon to consider this before leaking out game mechanics, that a player in their world, really shouldn't know, since they have not even stepped foot into it yet.
Thanks,
~ CaffeineInjected ~
I do see your point and it is fair. The problem is that, in general, going in blind is likely a small part of the population. They have to release some kind of information in order to maintain excitement.
Consider this, just because you know that there is an attunement item that you can get to protect yourself from the debuff doesn't mean you know where it is or exactly how to get it. Releasing information from a 10,000 foot view versus a 100 foot view is pretty reasonable.
Now if I were told that Artifact X could be found in Dungeon X by killing Boss X, then I would certainly consider that hand feeding and going too far; at least at this phase.
OP: I can certainly see what you are saying. Anyway, I enjoyed the q&a with Brad.
Caffeineinjected said:I read the newsletter today and enjoyed the information around the in-game weather systems. I find weather systems to be very importand and crucial to in-game immersion. They set the mood/tone and can make any region elicit a feeling or emotion.. fear.. dread.. happiness even. However, when I read the information about the new possible weather effects I was very saddened to see that these sytems which bring buffs / debuffs were immediately explained. I've not even stepped one foot into Terminus and yet I already know how to overcome an in game mechanic. Not exactly mind you but I have a very good Idea of what to do.
Just imagine if you don't know how to handle a blizzard or a dense fog or swamp mist when you encounter it. Imagine you get your butt whooped in the swamp by a horde of slime covered skeletons. Don't you feel this would leave a lasting impact on you? I think it would. However, now you just need to know that there is some specific item you need that will let you counter the effects of said environment woe. We just need to find it. We have not even played the game and this mechanic has been laid out for everyone to see. I know that once these things are discovered they are all over the internet in the true bog of Reddit or youTube videos with nerdy kids stuttering and stammering to walk you through the successful acquisition of some powerful artifact. Not all of this is bad but in most cases it has a negative affect on a gamer's experience if they didn't have to figure it out on their own.
So I would like to ask the makers of Pantheon to consider this before leaking out game mechanics, that a player in their world, really shouldn't know, since they have not even stepped foot into it yet.
Thanks,
~ CaffeineInjected ~
We described the system with enough detail we thought we needed to include and, of course, kept a lot of other details to ourselves. If this 'spoilng' the information? I don't think so. The information presesnted would be documented on several websites within days (hours?) of our lifting the NDA in beta. Believe me I am very anti-spoilers, but I think the detail level we are revealing here and plan to for future major and minor systems is appropriate. I am sorry you apparently disagree :(
Yes it would be documented quickly and it's one of the big issues with MMO's and the internet. There are systems I'm working on currently to combat this but unfortunately this involves pretty complex procedural generation and RNG.
I do disagree releasing that info but as you said it will be common knowledge before the game is even released and that is a shame.
Perhaps a way to balance this is just to keep Pantheon going in the challenging, full-of-depth direction that VR and community are discussing and pursuing. This can be one of the highest missions of the game; to bring us more of the unknown and challenge via expansions. I think it will all work out. It's clear that a lot is going into this game, and that's a good thing.
What was released was more-or-less high level detail to give us an idea what kind of systems were being worked on and what some of the terms tossed around meant to the developers.
I didn't take anything very specific as meaning here is what we *will* do but rather with this type of system here is what we *can* do.
Some of it they will - some of it they will not. And the parts they will use - well we do not know when or where or at what level.
I do not consider the OP's concerns ridiculous, but neither do I share them.
It has often been said that this is a *development* forum and one purpose for it is to have two way communication on game features - so that our input and feedback can be considered in game development. Not automatically followed, certainly, but considered. Again, while I understand where the OP is coming from - a development forum where they give us no information to have feedback *on* is not exceptionally useful.
Sure Brad could have said "we will have mobs - you will kill them if you want xp and loot". Hard to see that as a spoiler - hard to see it as at all interesting or useful either.
I remember the days when you had to buy a game, site unseen. Maybe you got a paid review/advertisement before release.
MMOs changed this. Now, you have to release different bits during development to keep people’s interest and differentiate yourself from the other games in development.
Don‘t blame VR for this phenomenon. Blame the Internet and 24-hours news cycle.
I totally get where CaffieneInjected is coming from with their concern. I'm the same way about wanting to experience the game world for myself, and figure things out on my own.
However:
In order for them to explain systems that are brand new to us, in writing, they're going to have to occasionally give us examples like htey did in the newsletter. Otherwise we'll end up with dozens of competing opinions within the community of what that actually *means*. I viewed what was in the newsletter as simply an example - and the list presented there as a starting point.
As well, I was long ago forced to accept that even though I enjoy discovery and mystery in game worlds, the vast majority of my fellow players would prefer to go out to a website and read all about everything before ever stepping foot in it. I hate that aspect of gaming culture, and I wish I could change it, but it's simply too pervasive to change. Sadly, I know that when the game launches, everything that can be figured out and put in a video or on a web page will be, in short order.
It's frustrating, but I'm choosing to channel that frustration into ideas and feedback, when and where applicable, that would help give us something closer to a living, breathing game world - one that is dynamic enough that we can't always know what we're stepping into or what we'll encounter. One where things can and will change over time, albeit slowly, so that the information captured on a website three months ago might no longer be valid in every case, and the next crop of adventurers to come through will have to learn things anew. There's a balance there, of course. But if Pantheon is really going to move the genre forward, I think it's a logical step that needs to be taken.
Right now the team is just focused on getting all the bits and pieces needed to present static content working, but the building blocks they need to take it further are there. NPC dispositions, the Perception system, even systems like Climates and Atmospheres could all be used dynamically to alter the states of content and provide us with less predictable experiences. Imagine events that trigger the formation of atmospheres, or that temporarily alter the climate of part of a zone. Imagine perception triggers that actually cause encounters to spawn that weren't there before. 9 of 10 people might walk right by that cave without ever realizing the Black Warg was inside, but you just happened to step on a branch at the wrong time and then you heard it growl. Imagine populations of NPCs that have different dispositions each time you encounter them - last time, those Ratkin attacked you, but this time, something's different. Where's that one going? Is he trying to get help?
My point is that even in spite of people's tendency to want to document everything, Pantheon has the building blocks that could be used to still insure there's a sense of adventure and discovery for players. It's just on us to make sure the team knows that there are players who want that sort of thing.
Anyway, I'll step off the soapbox for now. :)
@Nephele: Yes a lot of things you mention are valid and good. However, most mmo Makers have really laid an egg with regards to intelligent AI. I don't really consider triggers intelligent AI. There are of course perceptions or perceived behaviors. However behavior trees are too brittle and inflexible Think about a group of trolls that when they are attacked by a party and driven off they decide to recruit some brigands to help them and come back for a second chance to kick your party's ass. What kind of learned behaviors can your AI adopt. How will they adapt. These are the questions you should ask. If you simply create another MMO based on gear progression where the same encounter is merely repeated until said item drops and you win a roll... well then how have you really accomplished anything new. How will this game really last and not become just another tired rinse and repeat mmo?
As the minister in the movie Nacho Libre asks.. "Where is the Spice?"
~ CaffeineInjected ~
Beefcake said:I remember the days when you had to buy a game, site unseen. Maybe you got a paid review/advertisement before release.
Haha, yes. I actully knew nothing of everquest but i recall picking the box up and looking at the back and seeing a skeleton if I recall. Game changed my play style forever from 1 picture.
I agree completly with the OP. I want to load this game and know as little as possible. I think that is what they are trying to do with PF, just one big zone filled with content, land mass, lore...just enough to make your mouth water for the game. But I wil not be happy if in 6 months we are learning about more and more zones, and more dungeons. Lets try to keep as many secrets about the world as we can.
I did not get same impression as OP
Seemed like some information was teased but nothing was 'given'
And I dont think they are going to spoil much else zone-wise, beleive me they are of the mindset to have the world be explored by fresh eyes by everyone
There is something to be said for the difference between character knowledge and player knowledge. In Table Top RPGs that’s usually referring to the concept that players knowing meta data or having played said adventure before treat their character as not knowing it which sometimes leads to intentionally making bad logistical decisions for good RP reasons.
What I think we see here is more the flip that our adult characters that were born on Terminus are going to know the common fantastical environmental effects the same way we can be familiar with poison ivy and black widow spiders. I imaging that a lot of this information will be reviled through the perception system as you adventure but I could see actual lore books existing in the starting cities that a player can read for at least some of this information.
While the exact % buffs and debuffs may be coded into the perception text as minorly, significantly, greatly rather than 10% 20% or 30% it is still going to need to have some form of clue. I imagine that Gloom may be one of the first environmental effects that we run into and that it will be a relatively well understood effect by the denizens of Terminus.
Ultimately I would like to thank Brad and team for releasing some of the crunchier details as it helps those of us who love to theory craft to understand more of the overall game dynamics. From this one example I can extrapolate dozens of other possibilities that will have roughly the same magnitude of effect but on a player and it makes me excited for the future opportunities and how they can interact with player crafting. It is sounding like Pantheon will be an order of magnitude or more complex than EQ was and that is a very good thing to me.
And as Brian said to the ex-leper, “There’s no pleasing some people!”
If getting details about the mechanics of the game is "hand feeding" then I like to be "hand fed".
But that's not what this is, in my opinion. There is a vast chasm of difference between a single line of information and being hand fed a step by step how to win guide for the entirety of the game from level 1 to 50.
In this particular case, it was simply details that provided context to the topic at hand, and a welcome reveal, from my perspective.