As I interact with various people across the community, I've noticed lately that there still seems to be some confusion about why Pantheon still isn't in Alpha. So recently I went straight to the devs to get some answers. No, not every answer to every question, and no, I don't have a start date. But this should hopefully shed some light on why plans have changed in the past and how that affects the scope ahead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWoEXiM4laA
Good video - thanks.
The optimists among us thought, and think, and said on the forums, that the delay was very likely because of success not failure,
That the delay was because with the new hires and things moving well on both the creative and financial front they had an opportunity to make alpha a lot better than originally planned.
That they wanted to seize this opportunity because NDA or no NDA word would spread quickly about how the game looked and a bad first impression would hurt. Also, because the further advanced the game was the more *useful* alpha testing would be to them and let us make no mistake this is a *testing* phase not a marketing phase or a chance for loyal supporters to start playing. Though many of *us* view it as such.
The video reflects a conclusion based on at least a bit more information than most of us have that this "half full" belief was in fact correct. But fairness compels me to add that we don't *know* this and if the delay was due to bad things wouldn't they be going out of their way to persuade us that the reverse was true? Bazgrim is optimistic. I am optimistic. Gods of Pantheon willing we may even be right.
I'm not surprised they are ditching the one continent per phase approach, as so far, they've been unable to produce content at anything close to that pace, for whatever reason.
It means they now have the possibility of not launching with all three continents of content, though, which... is not going to be great, for a huge number of reasons.
Personally, I'm not expecting Faerthale to be done before June, and I'm not expecting Alpha to start this year. Since April 7, 2018, every estimate and ETA has slipped for every milestone. It's disheartening, but now... expected. :|
Having seen (eventually) the reasons for similar silence and delays in other small-dev-team projects, there is either a serious technical issue or a leadership/financial issue that is causing them, historically. That's not conspiracy-tinfoil talking, that's just history talking.
With the additional funding they have received, and the slew of new artist hired, they probably want to make a bigger splash with Alpha than was previously planned.
At the point Alpha is released, I suspect the Marketing is going to start picking up. By saying they want the game to be closer to release quality tells us that they know a lot more people are going to find out about Pantheon becuase Alpha means the game is real and getting close. When that time comes, they want the game to be looking and playing well so all the new eyes like what they see.
Truth be told, the game was always going to come out when it comes out; when a specific code commit is considered "alpha" or not is irrelevant.
bigdogchris said:With the additional funding they have received, and the slew of new artist hired, they probably want to make a bigger splash with Alpha than was previously planned.
At the point Alpha is released, I suspect the Marketing is going to start picking up. By saying they want the game to be closer to release quality tells us that they know a lot more people are going to find out about Pantheon becuase Alpha means the game is real and getting close. When that time comes, they want the game to be looking and playing well so all the new eyes like what they see.
Truth be told, the game was always going to come out when it comes out; when a specific code commit is considered "alpha" or not is irrelevant.
I think you're spot on.
vjek said:I'm not surprised they are ditching the one continent per phase approach, as so far, they've been unable to produce content at anything close to that pace, for whatever reason.
It means they now have the possibility of not launching with all three continents of content, though, which... is not going to be great, for a huge number of reasons.
Personally, I'm not expecting Faerthale to be done before June, and I'm not expecting Alpha to start this year. Since April 7, 2018, every estimate and ETA has slipped for every milestone. It's disheartening, but now... expected. :|
Having seen (eventually) the reasons for similar silence and delays in other small-dev-team projects, there is either a serious technical issue or a leadership/financial issue that is causing them, historically. That's not conspiracy-tinfoil talking, that's just history talking.
You're entitled to your opinions. But I don't see how releasing without 3 continents is at all a possibility. There are 3 races whose home city is on each continent, so launching without a continent means launching with less than the 9 races they've promised, which would cause an incredibly huge backlash. So that definitely falls under the category of "when it's ready." In other words, they wouldn't launch until all 3 continents are ready.
There's zero evidence other than your sunny side thinking to suggest they'd be in their previous version of alpha by now. We're moving the goalposts right along to support this narrative. The reply from VR was a bunch of meaningless "coach speak".
Bazgrim said:... In other words, they wouldn't launch until all 3 continents are ready.
So, objectively, without bias, we now know less than we knew yesterday, regarding the timelines for those milestones. As such, it is now a possibility that they will not meet those milestones, as those goals are no longer in place as they were previously.
I'm not trying to be pedantic. This is just simple logic. We know less. It's less certain. Now there is the very real chance they will simply stick the the neutrals in some generic outpost and call it a day, until the third continent is done, as the first expansion.
I'd rather they launch without all the continents than they don't launch at all, personally. But the second they publicly reveal the updated schedule for each continent to be done, I'll be a happy clam.
Also... there's only two continents on the public world map, currently. ;)
vjek said:Also... there's only two continents on the public world map, currently. ;)
Which is also stated as real outdated, even as of a year or more ago. It's probably all related: no finite new map, no continents in terms of zones with specifics, delays. Honestly, I'm not even sure the real map exists in a cohesive form. I really think the old map might be the new map at this point which goes to the point of continents at launch.
I love how people assume that something will happen or not happen...re the game world.
How do you know this? Do you have a magic globe that sees into the future..or is it just controversy you are seeking whether you're right or wrong? :)
Let VR accomplish the things they have planned, and if something more is going to happen than originally planned (ie: more content) be happy that they have the funding to do that. :) Are any of us world builders, coders..etc? No? Well then hang in there for the ride. :) This isn't EA or Sony or Daybreak. this is a small crowd funded indy developper, who has succeeded thus far because there are those of us who have donated to the cause.
The team is getting larger, that should be a good sign that things are going along just fine. :) Keep reading the monthly newsletter, and check out Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, Mmorpg.com if you need more info, as well as these forums of course. "Is it soup yet??" "Are we there yet??" Nope..not yet. :) Cheers! :)
Cana
vjek said:Also... there's only two continents on the public world map, currently. ;)
Just an observation:
Whitethaw is supposed to have at least two racial hometowns (Dwarves and Archai).
To launch with the continent only partially done (or worse, multiple continents partially done) calls to mind the state of Vanguard when that game was launched.
I strongly doubt that Brad would be willing to ship another game in that state after what happened to Vanguard. I know if I was in his shoes I'd wait another year if that's what it took to make sure that all three continents were fully built.
Plus, I'm pretty sure now that she's part of the team, Brasse would lead half of VR's team on a rampage if the dwarven hometown and dwarven parts of the map weren't completely populated and ready at launch :)
Anyway, put me in the optimist camp. I think it's realistic that the game launches with all three continents fully populated, and that we see that within two years (which gives plenty of time for alpha AND beta.)
Bazgrim said:As I interact with various people across the community, I've noticed lately that there still seems to be some confusion about why Pantheon still isn't in Alpha. So recently I went straight to the devs to get some answers. No, not every answer to every question, and no, I don't have a start date. But this should hopefully shed some light on why plans have changed in the past and how that affects the scope ahead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWoEXiM4laA
As usual, great video. Can't wait till Pantheon releases more info so you can make more videos
Nephele said:vjek said:Also... there's only two continents on the public world map, currently. ;)
Just an observation:
Whitethaw is supposed to have at least two racial hometowns (Dwarves and Archai).
To launch with the continent only partially done (or worse, multiple continents partially done) calls to mind the state of Vanguard when that game was launched.
I strongly doubt that Brad would be willing to ship another game in that state after what happened to Vanguard. I know if I was in his shoes I'd wait another year if that's what it took to make sure that all three continents were fully built.
Plus, I'm pretty sure now that she's part of the team, Brasse would lead half of VR's team on a rampage if the dwarven hometown and dwarven parts of the map weren't completely populated and ready at launch :)
Anyway, put me in the optimist camp. I think it's realistic that the game launches with all three continents fully populated, and that we see that within two years (which gives plenty of time for alpha AND beta.)
It's actually Dwarves, Archai, and Gnomes on Whitethaw. But otherwise, yes, you're totally right. The atlas on the website is at least 4 years old and has nothing to do with the current situation. Personally, I expect to see an updated atlas when the new site launches later this year, but we'll see. The bigger point is that because there is no established release date or even time frame for release, they have the freedom to take as long as they need to complete the 3 continents (and therefore all races) as promised. Releasing with any less than that (aka launching an unfinished game) would be a catastrophic PR move as it goes against everything they've said up until now, and therefore is not an option. How long will that be? I have no idea, but as Cana pointed out, momentum has been and will be picking up as the team expands. It makes no sense to launch with less content than promised when there is no promised release date. It's like breaking one promise to keep a promise you never made.
CanadinaXegony said:Let VR accomplish the things they have planned, and if something more is going to happen than originally planned (ie: more content) be happy that they have the funding to do that. :) Are any of us world builders, coders..etc? No? Well then hang in there for the ride. :) This isn't EA or Sony or Daybreak. this is a small crowd funded indy developper, who has succeeded thus far because there are those of us who have donated to the cause.
The team is getting larger, that should be a good sign that things are going along just fine. :) Keep reading the monthly newsletter, and check out Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, Mmorpg.com if you need more info, as well as these forums of course. "Is it soup yet??" "Are we there yet??" Nope..not yet. :) Cheers! :)
Cana
Precisely. We aren’t there yet. We will get there. :) Keep spreading the word community! These devs and OUR community never cease to amaze me with their beautiful work. #communitymatters
I would be OK with them brining the three races from Whitethaw into either Kingsreach or Reignfall if they had too. Hell, EQ shipped without Kunark and Velious -save Whitethaw for the first expansion if you have to.
As far as I know, we have not seen anything from Reignfall at all. Everything, so far, has been KR content. Some of it was redone within the past three years.
I would totally understand if they had to cut out a continent to make a reasonable Alpha/Beta/Release.
Baz, your video on YouTube was spot on. I always enjoy your stuff.
One thing that many decades of gaming and lots of beta play have taught me is its a long way from the start of Alpha to the end of Beta. Things we think are true today won't be by the end of Alpha, and everything will be different by the end of Beta.
If that takes 2 years, so be it. I'd rather it only takes a year, because I wasn't a kid when I started EQ beta 1 all those years ago, so I'm really not a kid by the time Pantheon launches.
But then, Age and Cunning usually trump Youth and Exhuberance.
Ghool said: The part that takes the most time, is establishing the main systems and programs/scripting that run the rules. I just wonder if they have developed a toolset to expediate the process.
This is a very good point... and VR actually has a really great guy working on those tools.
For those who haven't had a chance to read it, they did an interview with this Dev: Jason Weimann, in the July 2018 newsletter Dev Spotlight.
Just some quotes I pulled from that interview:
Jason said: "There are a few key parts of Pantheon I’ve been working on since joining the team in November. The first is tooling; I’ve spent a lot of my time working on building tools for the game-design team to create the content you see in-game"
"Most recently, I built a new ability system for Pantheon to give the team a ton of flexibility when creating NPCs and player classes (along with the tooling to create the abilities). My goal with this new system was to build something that allows design to create just about anything they can imagine."
"I’ve worked on a lot of MMOs in the past, but they were always nearly ‘done’ when I got to them, and some had some serious architectural issues that made things painful. They worked, but there were a ton of those pain points throughout the codebase. I wanted to get into Pantheon to help avoid that, while building some really exciting new functionality into an MMO."
Some of Jason's previous experience: "When I started at SOE/Sigil, I spent most of my time building developer tools so the game designers could create the content. Quest builders, NPC editors, even analytics, but I quickly transitioned to doing a lot of the server and database code. I spent six years at the company, working on Vanguard and EverQuest 2"
Jason also teaches courses on Unity which is the game engine Pantheon is using. He runs the site https://unity3d.college/.
Ghool said: So if Jason joined in November and has been building the tools required for the developers, I'd say it'll be a few more months before the next pre-alpha rolls out.
Note... that interview was from July which means he started back in 2017, not this past November.
Ghool said: I've done a.significant amount of world building myself. I would expect the development of the world and zones to accelerate over the next year. The part that takes the most time, is establishing the main systems and programs/scripting that run the rules. It appears from the live streams that at this point the majority of primary systems are in place. I just wonder if they have developed a toolset to expediate the process, but based on the development time line, yes, although it appears to still need textures for some parts, as well as models. Based on what I have experienced, they have the time to build all the continents and zones over the next year. That's the easiest and quickest part, really. So based on what we know about how many zones are built, I wouldn't sweat it. I would be more concerned if the classes and combat system wasn't yet finalized. But since they are actively tweaking those systems, and no longer building them, we will see quite a bit of progress on the zone and continent building this year. Keep calm and remain hyped. It won't be long now.
This. They have built enough zones to serve as test beds for different systems, with Faerthale being the first to incorporate all/most systems together. I don't work in game design, but I do work in IT Infrastructure and have worked on projects with developers. When building something from the ground up like this, it's done in layers. Think of it like building a house. Do you pour one strip of slab, stand up framing for one wall, run electrical, install insulation, drywall, tape and bed, paint...then move on to the next wall? No, you pour the whole slab, do all the framing, then electrical, etc. You can have some overlap between the crews, but you also don't want to have drywall and paint done before electrical, or you would have to cut a bunch of holes or tear some down. If you have ever been around new construction, you know that "nothing" looks finished until very close to the end of the project. This obviously isn't a perfect analogy, but it is similar in how you need to build systems, background processes, etc first instad of building out 50+ zones just so they can sit there doing nothing while you go back and build foundation stuff.
I see a lot of people saying things like "omg they only have 4 or 5 zones after 5 years so guess we will see the game in about 50 years!" Of course some of these statements are said sarcastically or meant as hyperbole, but just know as Ghool said, building out the zones and making them pretty takes place after the boring backend stuff is done that you don't "see". So yes, it is taking longer than most of us would like, but it isn't as dire as many assume. And I'll go ahead and tote the fan boy line too: "I would rather it take longer and be better and endure, than get it faster/incomplete and fizzle!"