Kumu said:Bards live to group...how else will we gather the material needed for rich songs and tales of cowardice & heroism; sadness and joy; defeat & triumph.
I find it difficult to compose solo odes to a broken lute string, shawm reed, or past due bar tab...
that's the spirit longbeard! please sing the song of the snow maiden and fetch me a glass of that fine honeysilk wine!
Kumu said:Bards live to group...how else will we gather the material needed for rich songs and tales of cowardice & heroism; sadness and joy; defeat & triumph.
I find it difficult to compose solo odes to a broken lute string, shawm reed, or past due bar tab...
I remember bards being one of the most highly sought after classes in FFXI. They were always my first choice to build a group composition around, if they were available. When I think about bards being able to quad kite for solo XP ... it's a really bad vision, kind of like kittens drowning. They are the life of a party, the soul of a brigade. Player interdependence is key and it would be a downright criminal act to allow the maestros of synergy to be reduced into solo balladiers.
WarKnight said:I thought VR's direction was always "Social dynamics with deep grouping mechanics"?
Is this changing or is this question just for fun?
To answer the question if I had to choose it would be "Social dynamics with deep grouping mechanics".
I would also like some "Solo-ability with content to do without the help of anyone else" simply because of my schedule. But for the greater good of the game please focus on grouping!
My worry is them designing "solo" content as an offical declaration. This is a problem, because in order to meet this need, they then have to evaluate that ALL classes are capable of defeating the solo content. This means solo content will be designed to the lowest common denominator, making it so ridicuously easy that players with any level of skill or ability in playing games will destroy the encounter, turning it into the perfect grind material for plat/exp farmers.
There is a difference between having content that "some" may be able to solo and having content that is "solable". One is EQ like, the other is modern game design. The latter is something I have no interest in.
fazool said:Grouping is more important, but you have to have solo content for non-group times or everyone will drift away every time they cant find a group
Not really. As a monk in EQ release, I could only solo up to about 36 (when Instill Doubt kiting, aka fear kiting, resulted in SK gnolls no longer providing EXP), after that, I changed my approach and became a group organizer. I was not the type to sit on my arse and "hope" for a solution, I pulled together players and organized them to a goal. So, after that I was always grouping regardless. In fact, because I was of such a nature, I had a massive list of people logging on constantly asking if there was room in my groups. This works, in fact.. I taught several players in my guild how to do the same (regardless of class). It reallly is just a process of being outgoing, organizing, and being diligent to a focus. Once people know you form groups, you will never be without one.
So the idea that if there is no solo-designed content, that people wiil drift away is not a declaration of failing in the game, rather it is a failing in its players and players who will not take any means to seek such really aren't ones to chase after anyway. I mean, why create a game for social focus and then cater to the anti-social. For those who want to be anti-social, there are numerous games, both single and multiplayer that serve their ideal. Pantheon will only contridict itself by serving that focus.
I would have to agree with Tanix here.
Don't design zones for soloing...that is lazy. I would assume I could solo lower level mobs in any game, including this. I don't think you need to design solo zones. If you are lvl 50 and you go to a lvl 35 zone to farm some bosses for rare drops...so be it. I would assume a lvl 50 could solo a lvl 35 boss. If you are a necro/druid/ranger etc..I would assume you could solo mobs in the 40s without running out of mana. Keep it to group content and let the players figure out how to solo. Don't design things to be soloed.
So my answer will be the group content and immersion one :P
((My worry is them designing "solo" content as an offical declaration. This is a problem, because in order to meet this need, they then have to evaluate that ALL classes are capable of defeating the solo content. This means solo content will be designed to the lowest common denominator, making it so ridicuously easy that players with any level of skill or ability in playing games will destroy the encounter, turning it into the perfect grind material for plat/exp farmers.))
This is a very very valid concern. While I have argued that all classes should have at least a minimal ability to solo, I have also agreed with many others that classes should be kept separate and distinct and *not* balanced to make every class equal to every other class. If the weakest class can solo easily this indeed implies that the strongest class can go though solo content like poop through a goose. As to this Tanix is correct.
A mystery a rebus, a puzzle, an enigma - can we resolve it without crucifying solo play upon an altar of unblance? Perhaps not but we need to try. Those who want to group almost all of the time and those that want to spend significant chunks of time solo must hang together or assuredly Pantheon will be weakened and we will all hang separately. But ....how?
Perhaps this. Make sure that a significant number of classes can solo effectively but not be too overpowered. Make sure that others can at least solo marginally, and let the class descriptions warn players in character creation that these classes may experience difficulty on their own. Many games have done this - nothing new here.
Make sure, as I have said many times, that solo content gives lower experience per minute, inferior items, and less cash than group content. So Tanix' "plat/exp farmers" will not be tempted.
If solo play can get me to level-cap in double the time of grouping and with inferior gear - perhaps this is the win-win spot. Those that cannot or will not group will have something to do that eventually lets them enjoy the content. Heck if I want to solo and I want to level fast I am most certainly playing the wrong game but if I want to *sometimes* solo and am happy progressing at less than blinding speed perhaps I am *not* in the wrong game. But the core design feature will still be "group first" and "group is better for progress".
Just how to have both solo and group content without double the work for VR - this also is a question that must be answered.
Separate solo zones and a solo quest/exploration line is with a high level of probabilty not the way. The Way may be to have solo areas in most or all zones that give a good feel for the zone and the communities/factions. Maybe every dungeon in the game is for groups or raids. But in landscape maybe a decent chunk of each zone has mobs that can be solod even if these aren't the richest chunks of the zone with the best rewards.
Sorry for two long posts on the same topic - not usually my style - but Tanix' point seemed very worth a detailed response (and also I was interrupted in the middle of my first post by family aggro).
Kilsin said:If given the choice, what do you rate as being more important in an MMORPG - Social dynamics with deep grouping mechanics or Solo-ability with content to do without the help of anyone else and why? #MMORPG #communitymatters
Social dynamics with deep grouping mechanics every time!
1. Developing for solo and group is far from lazy. If you want to make up an excuse for not developing a solo portion alongside the grouping aspect then say "it will take up too many valuable resources" (ie...devs)
2. MMO means massively multiplayer online. No grouping is stated as a requirement. Simply put MMO means you have more then one player online in a massive world, usually assumed to be persistent. Now in the RPG portion of MMORPG you might be able to slip that logic in there.
Kilsin said:If given the choice, what do you rate as being more important in an MMORPG - Social dynamics with deep grouping mechanics or Solo-ability with content to do without the help of anyone else and why? #MMORPG #communitymatters
Social dynamics with deep grouping mechanics, without a doubt.
Situational settings: MMO with one player trying to create two scenario's without support of the game or specific designs of the dev's of that game. Purely on their own initiative and creative experience in that game.
As a player, one can be creative enough to go out and play solo in a situation, where they have found it to be succesfull and rewarding enough to go about their business on their own.
It is however much more difficult when that player, goes out into the world and tries to create a situation where they would need a group or where they can preform some grouping mechanics. Without a design for it, already in the game.
In time, players will grow in level and skill and might be trying out older content or current content, in the hope or with the aim to solo some of it. It's quite possible that many will succeed. Depending on the actual game design (challenge) the ratio of succesfull solo players will differ and especially to what degree these players will get rewarded for the solo efforts. (Time to kill a mob, might be an important factor here, but I won't open that can of wurms in this thread)
I prefer the social aspect and especially the deep grouping mechanism, if I can surround myself with people looking to enjoy those skills and designs in the game as wel. It feels a lot more rewarding and it's key to reason why I'm seeking a MMO-style game. To interact with players with all the dependancy that might entail.
Like many others already stated, it's something that could make Pantheon stand out from the other MMO's. It's a big die to roll, but at some point, it will happen.
stellarmind said:food= group content
water= solo content
simple and efficient metaphor
Food = Blarg!
Water = Numag!
Simple and efficient metaphor!
Your argument isn't an argument, it is simply a statement without support.
Tanix said:stellarmind said:food= group content
water= solo content
simple and efficient metaphor
Food = Blarg!
Water = Numag!
Simple and efficient metaphor!
Your argument isn't an argument, it is simply a statement without support.
True lol.
Don't get why people want designed solo content when the higher level you get the more low level stuff you can solo.
Hell with my Paladin in P99 I quested for the ghoulbane and can solo carefully, and slowly, in Lguk if I wanted to. Lguk was definetly designed for groups.
DracoKalen said:1. Developing for solo and group is far from lazy. If you want to make up an excuse for not developing a solo portion alongside the grouping aspect then say "it will take up too many valuable resources" (ie...devs)
2. MMO means massively multiplayer online. No grouping is stated as a requirement. Simply put MMO means you have more then one player online in a massive world, usually assumed to be persistent. Now in the RPG portion of MMORPG you might be able to slip that logic in there.
No, someone just took the term MMO too literal and used it as a wedge to contiminate the genre
Well this game, at least to the best of my knowledge was/is being developed as a group-centric game. If they want to add some solo content, great, if not no big deal.
My preference as to solo or group will be solely based off the availability of groups and how they relate to the productivity of what I'm doing at the time
Group is always my first choice but some of us may not be able to dedicate the time that we would like to group play.
With health issues slowing my play time, I need to afk often.
I want solo play that is hard and difficult when I'm forced to play that way.
No care bear please!!!
Soloing a blue should be pretty much (for a competent player) a sure thing. Even con? 50/50. Anything above that and it's your arse. Look, I love games that force you to group to progress for raiding and such, but I should be able to progress by soloing...even if it is at half the rate or less than groups.
Shyin said:Group is always my first choice but some of us may not be able to dedicate the time that we would like to group play.
With health issues slowing my play time, I need to afk often.
I want solo play that is hard and difficult when I'm forced to play that way.
No care bear please!!!
No need to make solo content then. Just make group content and you can figure out how to defeat it solo. That is what was done in EQ.
Grouping mechanics all the way!
not nessesarily that all the content require strict 6 man party with defined roles,
but lets say that a small squad of 3-4 people should be the nucleus of the open world exploration, so when two squads that doing their own way meet at the outskirts of a hard zone they join and go in together.
soloing your way to the endgame is a HUGE 'no no'
I would say:
5% of the content is 24 man raid content ( exclusive hard raids)
10% of the content is 12 man raid content ( casual 'endgame' raid zones)
50% of the content is 6 man group content ( dungeon zones and hard open world areas with good drops)
25% of the content is 3 man group content (the rest of the open world, gathering expeditions )
10% of the content is solo content. ( areas around cities and player hubs, noob zones )
I will always favor grouping in an mmo, thats the reason i play an mmo for the interaction. This is also the exact reason i don't play solo games as it is lacking this said interaction. So for me grouping is the way to go. But . . . i should be able to farm materials for crafting or faction for quest 987234, i'd hate having to have a group for that. So soloable content should exist.
So i geuss what i am saying is: Solo to pass time, grouping for progression.
I always thought the answer to this was exceptionally easy and has been proven over time.
All meaningful character level advancement, gear attainment, and ability advancement should be group focused. If players can advance in any significant manner solo, that's the path of least resistance and most will take it. Soloing for efficient level gain or top end gear attainment is bad design in an MMO.
However, soloability, which I believe is absolutely necessary in an MMO, should focus around horizontal advancement with things such as housing/decoration, crafting/harvesting, exploring/mapping, farming materials, collection quests, working on faction/reputation, Sell/Buy, etc... Just things for people to do if they are in a bad mood and want to play the game alone for a bit.
You need both for the game to thrive. Vertical character progression/Group-centric game play is needed for people to work together and socialize. It's the backbone of a long lasting MMO, along with the game actually being enjoyable and functional. Horizontal character progression is the optional stuff that is there to provide depth and content in the game. This stuff gives people plenty of choices of things to do if they only have a limited play time or are just not in the mood to deal with people but want to log in and enjoy the game. If you make the game group only to achieve anything and there's little to do solo, people just won't log in when they don't have time or are in bad moods, and eventually they just won't feel attachment to the game. You want it to always be a positive experience if someone only has an hour or wants to escape from the stress of the world for a short while and be alone.
It simply depends on my playtime. If i have only 1 hour, i prefer solo play, because to seek a group, even with frieds takes time and 1 hour is to less to have some real fun. Even if you have to go AFK here and there, grouping is hard because its annoying if every few min someone goes AFK. If i have more time, i prefer grouping and the social part. So for me its not a black/white decision for some reasons i need both :)
Kilsin said:If given the choice, what do you rate as being more important in an MMORPG - Social dynamics with deep grouping mechanics or Solo-ability with content to do without the help of anyone else and why? #MMORPG #communitymatters
Pantheon is not marketed as a single player game. But if we look at the "spheres" of the game, IMO there is room for single player activities in the non-combat spheres like harvesting, crafting, maybe some questing.
In the combat sphere, soloing should be limited to things like hunting (single) wild animals. Anything else however should require team work. Although I would like to see (outdoor) content that can be done with small groups. Dungeons on the other hand should be full group only, always.