another reason mmos are dying because they are trying to neutralize negative player to player interactions with systems. if you want to put it into perspective, it's along the lines of misgendering someone and next thing you know you are in jail with a 5 thousand dollar fine. i don't mean to be political, but i'm drawing an similar solution to an issue that occurs in human society.
Tanix said:That is why in EQ, we had server forums and a black list thread. People posted their issues and it went from there.
Fair enough. If a community is tight enough to the point where server forums are widely used and not just ignored by 90% of the population that could be a good place to post issues like this and leave it at that.
have you ever been a fight before? or had an argument? If you cant handle someone being aggressive toward you, you DO need help, you just want someone else to help you instand of you helping yourself, this is figurative btw, not directing it at you as an individual, most people dont go out of their way to attack people, especially for no reason, and when there is reason, its not like that person on a videogame of all things is going to go out of their way everyday to make you misreable, it will more than likely last for 5 minutes and everyone will move on. Its a fact of life a few softies are trying to eliminate, its never going to happen, its what makes us strive to be better as a species, and sorry man but it works, has since the beginning of us, and hopefully that motivation keeps us going for as long as the earth can keep us alive.
It used to work like that, but in recent years it no longer really does. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind politically incorrect jokes and SJW movements tend to go way overboard with ridiculous accusations as they take anything and everything out of context to suit their cause. I've just noticed that as people have gotten fed up with SJW nonsense there's been a growing trend where it's considered 'rad' to insult others to 'put them in their place' whenever there's a conflict of opinion. Jerks are celebrated on the internet for some of the trash that comes out of their mouths. A bit of course correction wouldn't go amiss, as long as it's not taken to extremes.
Riqq said:as long as i get my barney the dinosaur mount and heart particle effects radiating from every pixel of my character i dont care either way
i find your barney mount and heart particile insulting. i must now grief you as long as you continue to mount such an atrocity. (jk btw i'm just pushing a point)
stellarmind said:Riqq said:as long as i get my barney the dinosaur mount and heart particle effects radiating from every pixel of my character i dont care either way
i find your barney mount and heart particile insulting. i must now grief you as long as you continue to mount such an atrocity. (jk btw i'm just pushing a point)
Actually, as I disagree with your comments I think the only sensible course of action is to hunt your avatar down in Pantheon and teach it a lesson. (jk same reason) I'd say we need to grow up, but grown ups are often the worst.
I wouldn't even try to define toxicity - it comes in so many different forms.
If I were writing a rule with this in mind it might be along the lines of "thou shalt not take action to hurt other players or make their experience less pleasant where that is your objective, rather than it simply resulting from things that you do to *benefit* yourself or others".
Of course it can be very hard to determine what someone's motive is.
But if someone trains someone else and says haha got you it isn't all that difficult. Or if they deliberately run into a group of mobs, make sure they have them all, run straight to another person and flop.
Personally I think eliminating trains is a better fix than playing with how feign death works but that isn't likely to happen.
dorotea said:I wouldn't even try to define toxicity - it comes in so many different forms.
If I were writing a rule with this in mind it might be along the lines of "thou shalt not take action to hurt other players or make their experience less pleasant where that is your objective, rather than it simply resulting from things that you do to *benefit* yourself or others".
Of course it can be very hard to determine what someone's motive is.
But if someone trains someone else and says haha got you it isn't all that difficult. Or if they deliberately run into a group of mobs, make sure they have them all, run straight to another person and flop.
Personally I think eliminating trains is a better fix than playing with how feign death works but that isn't likely to happen.
makes me think, god got tired of policing humans, so he decided to let them figure it out themselves and dropped some simple guildlines XD
((makes me think, god got tired of policing humans, so he decided to let them figure it out themselves and dropped some simple guildlines ))
This is actually not a bad theory at all. I prefer it to the theory that the universe is a kindergarten project and God hasn't been going around, zapping people and talking through prophets recently because it is nap time. Note that I don't necessarily think it is more *likely* but I do prefer it.
I had an immature friend who actually got me into playing EQ. When he found out he could train level 1 noobs (as a low level player himself) with skeletons, that's literally the only thing he did for hours on end. In WoW and other padded wall MMO's those players find new outlets for their toxicity - social interactions. In WoW temper tantrums are the norm. Elitism runs rampant. Bullying is ignored.
The goal shouldn't be to stop conflict and toxicity with mechanics, but social pressure with a touch of rule enforcement is a tried and true approach. Any mechanic that can be visibly and verifiably abused is 100% fine by me.
What I want from Pantheon is a system that lets me record gameplay to some degree and hit a button to save some recent section of play. If I get trained, I want to be able to see what happened, who did it, and be able to prove that to a GM.
Ainadak said:What I want from Pantheon is a system that lets me record gameplay to some degree and hit a button to save some recent section of play. If I get trained, I want to be able to see what happened, who did it, and be able to prove that to a GM.
Don't need Pantheon for that. Pretty sure recording is a basic Windows tool now as well as any AMD/Nvidia GPU from the past few years, you can even start recording events that took place minutes before so you don't have to have it running constantly waiting to catch people.
Unless there is clear cut rules and systems in place, there is nothing that can be done. What you think is wrong , I might think of as compition.
This is not a AAA mmo , stop acting like there is going to be a ton of money and resources for non essential personal.
There have been a ton of solutions that have already been discussed , and no feed back was given by dev's.
Also heavy modding of the forums and direct staff interference in discussions always leads to outside forum use and removes the need or usefulness of the original forums..... eq2flames anyone?
They can't police it. That's why they are putting so much emphasis on creating a game where reputation matters so that the community will police itself.
I'm sure you can dig up numerous other threads where people have shared their opinion on this topic.
Of course there are major infractions that can, and will, be policed but I think you are referring to more than that?
Typical situation:
Someone is a complete ****** to you, repeatedly. You move on and ignore them. Then, they get on chat channels claiming you are harassing them. The community turns against you and you get banned.
That’s the problem with a nanny police state. So easily abused by the people the nanny police are supposed to be stopping.
Just like divorce and politics.
Xxar theres nothing wrong with heavy modding of forums, it's actually the smart move. FF14 is known to be downright tyrannical with their forums yet plenty of people are using them, sure people are on reddit etc. but who cares? Well curated forums is how you get the best community involvement and keep things productive. Last I checked the WoW forums are not known for being productive, the devs don't even bother reading them and that is a 'AAA' MMORPG. Having clear rules defined is a must! Those that are constant bad actors in game should be banned by the GMs. Unless VR is looking for the more trollish type of community I say put that extra emphasis on GM presence in game and keeping clean forums with heavy moderation. Leave the rage posting to reddit.
Ziegfried said:Xxar theres nothing wrong with heavy modding of forums, it's actually the smart move. FF14 is known to be downright tyrannical with their forums yet plenty of people are using them, sure people are on reddit etc. but who cares? Well curated forums is how you get the best community involvement and keep things productive. Last I checked the WoW forums are not known for being productive, the devs don't even bother reading them and that is a 'AAA' MMORPG. Having clear rules defined is a must! Those that are constant bad actors in game should be banned by the GMs. Unless VR is looking for the more trollish type of community I say put that extra emphasis on GM presence in game and keeping clean forums with heavy moderation. Leave the rage posting to reddit.
I would much prefer heavy forum modding than in-game. Most trolls will make themselves known in the forums. The forums should be helpful, not full of crap and arguments.
Heavier modding of these forums would be helpful.
dorotea said:I wouldn't even try to define toxicity - it comes in so many different forms.
If I were writing a rule with this in mind it might be along the lines of "thou shalt not take action to hurt other players or make their experience less pleasant where that is your objective, rather than it simply resulting from things that you do to *benefit* yourself or others".
Of course it can be very hard to determine what someone's motive is.
But if someone trains someone else and says haha got you it isn't all that difficult. Or if they deliberately run into a group of mobs, make sure they have them all, run straight to another person and flop.
Personally I think eliminating trains is a better fix than playing with how feign death works but that isn't likely to happen.
You don't need to fix feigh death. You just need to give players a tool to counter feign death that is being used in a malicious way. Maybe an ability that forces the "griefer" to get back up on his feet with a 10X hate multiplier. Once he's down for the count, the train mem wipes and goes back to their location. Don't give the ability to classes that can feign death so people don't mess up with pulls.
Probably not a perfect solution, but everyone always seem to think feign death is the end all be all thing, while it's really just one counter ability away from not being as useful for griefing purposes.
stellarmind said:another reason mmos are dying because they are trying to neutralize negative player to player interactions with systems. if you want to put it into perspective, it's along the lines of misgendering someone and next thing you know you are in jail with a 5 thousand dollar fine. i don't mean to be political, but i'm drawing an similar solution to an issue that occurs in human society.
What happens when the person who's being toxic towards you is also better geared, higher level, and a better player. Pvp solves nothing. It just gives a toxic player MORE of an ability to be toxic.
I've never been too fussed about this at all. Sometimes people are rude or grief me but it never stopped me from enjoying a game so /shrug. Though I vastly prefer pvp servers over pve anyway. Hunting people down is part of the fun!
ecdubz said:stellarmind said:i'd rather hunt the scum down myself and grief the griefer.
And thus toxicity was born. DAoC & WoW both fed this kind of mentality where you would get a friend of log over to your main to "grief the griefer". We wont see PvP in Pantheon most likely but to transfer it over into a PvE enironment is definitely what we want to avoid.
The FAQ says "we will definitely launch with at least one player vs. player shard."
"Toxicity" shouldnt exist in private channels. Tells, guild and group are all "private" channels. In these channels if someone is being toxic you have options. (Ignore them, leave the guild or group etc). Toxicity in public channels... trade, ooc, general chats... absolutely should be punished, warnings for language, temp bans, weekly suspensions and ultimately perm bans.
Griefing should be policed. Griefing to me the the intentional disruption of someones play for an extended period of time or across multiple zones. Someone training you is not griefing. Someone training you over and over everytime you rez... that is. Someone training you and you leaving the zone... not griefing. Someone training you... the following you to a new zone and training you again... griefing.
The community should determine things like camps, engagement rules, looting rules etc... there WILL be server forums available . There are for every game. If an individual is doing something that goes against the community guidelines... like constant KSing of nameds... or ninja looting valuable gems during combat... let people know. Blacklist that person. Blacklisting worked VERY well in EQ, because you needed 5 other players to do anything worthwhile most of the time. Blacklisting didnt work in wow... because it can be played as a solo game.
Ziegfried said:Xxar theres nothing wrong with heavy modding of forums, it's actually the smart move. FF14 is known to be downright tyrannical with their forums yet plenty of people are using them, sure people are on reddit etc. but who cares? Well curated forums is how you get the best community involvement and keep things productive. Last I checked the WoW forums are not known for being productive, the devs don't even bother reading them and that is a 'AAA' MMORPG. Having clear rules defined is a must! Those that are constant bad actors in game should be banned by the GMs. Unless VR is looking for the more trollish type of community I say put that extra emphasis on GM presence in game and keeping clean forums with heavy moderation. Leave the rage posting to reddit.
I agree to disagree.
First off a extreamly small portion of the playerbase will visit the forums , these are proven facts from mmo to mmo.
That being said , when we start to break down stats and systems of the game one of two things are going to happen. There will be a serious discussion on issues or it will become a lock fest as we "prove" underlying issues. If the second happens , serious discussions move off the main forums ... eq2flames was a perfect example. Do I want this , No.
The point is with systems in place , the forums become a place to have real discussions and feed back from the devs about truely broken content , what we have now is solid ... but when the game launches , it might be a entirely different situation.
I prefer clear cut systems or rule violations set into stone , otherwise the forums turn into a xxx guild did this , or ban this bot crew or 1000 examples that can be found in almost every single mmo , that allowed a abuse situation due to not having a system and relying on community policing , that honestly ... I can care less about , my community is my guild.
That is the thing you are not understanding , reputation does not matter outside my circle.. you are the enemy in a sense. So you saying xxx is doing whatever , means nothing without a clear set of rules or a system such as encounter locks. There is multiple threads on the subject , with tons of ideas already. I hope you see my point , what exactly is a bad actor ? You consider it kill stealing , I consider it compition and the discussion can go on and on in a circle , without a true set of rules.
VR also has almost no control over the type of community each server has. The individual players on each server will decide that not them.
((Griefing should be policed. Griefing to me the the intentional disruption of someones play for an extended period of time or across multiple zones. Someone training you is not griefing. Someone training you over and over everytime you rez... that is. Someone training you and you leaving the zone... not griefing. Someone training you... the following you to a new zone and training you again... griefing.))
Sorry but I think you have this wrong.
Someone training even a single time on purpose is griefing.
It may be impossible to punish if it is just done once on the way out of the zone because how is a GM to know it is griefing. But what can be *proven* is quite different from what actually *is* a violation of the code of conduct and the distinction can be important. Any attempt to hurt you because someone wants to hurt you (not for any legitimate reason) is griefing. On pve server, that is.
Unless there is a built in game recorder , prove it ? Also accidental pulls happen , was it intentional ? Prove it .... I FD next to you , im using a legit game mechanic you just happen to be there . See this debate can go around in circles all day long and in the end are nothing but a waste of a devs and GMs time , when it can all be solved from the start.
Fraps , can be doctored if someone wants to try hard enough. Why , even allow it in the first place?
As stated this discussion has already been discussed to death.
stellarmind said:i'd rather hunt the scum down myself and grief the griefer.
Waste of effort, I literally have no concern for them, they are "less than" to me. /shrug