Maybe I'm in the minority but then again maybe not. Let's find out.
When I gain an item. The main thing that makes me value it is knowing that at any point it can be taken away from me via death. We all know that this is in the game as seen in the various corpse runs in the streams.
I would like to see this same logic applied to player levels. Already VR have said that you will lose a portiion of XP upon death but I want to take that further. If I lose XP and my XP bar drops below zero for that level. I want to drop down a level. This will add a greater risk/reward to the game and increase the satisfaction of leveling up. This will also make max level something you have to be good at the game to be able to aqquire.
I'm not sure what the current stance VR has on this but would like to hear players thoughts.
You'll find a lot of debate on the subject. In general, I fall firmly in the camp that believes a severe(ish) death penalty is a core value of "with increased risk comes increased reward". With the NDA in place over pre-alpha, many of us do not know what the current systems are.
I started an FAQ thread awhile ago that may be of interest to you, which can be found here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8530/frequently-asked-questions
It contains a bunch of popular topics that have a range of open/active threads where that topic (or related sub-topics) are already being discussed. Here is the death penalty excerpt:
FAQ Excerpt ( 7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’? )
"We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items."
Quote from Joppa (05/02/2017): https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6068/live-stream-05-02-feedback/view/page/1
"Loving the feedback everyone!
As a general note, I just want to reiterate that our Death system is still under heavy consideration. We may move towards de-leveling in the near future (I'm not opposed to it). We may end up with a hybrid, where a certain amount of EXP debt is accumulated before an actual de-level. Or we may stick with a pure EXP-debt system.
You can bank on us trying all 3 of these approaches, if not more, during Alpha and Beta testing before we make a final decision."
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2087/let-s-talk-death-penalty ;; (Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3116/the-fear-of-death ;; (Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2558/making-death-impactful ;; (Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3817/the-case-against-the-death-penalty ;; (Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3819/a-clear-discussion-on-death-penalty ;; (Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5088/slow-progression-and-fear-of-death ;; (Closed)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6183/death-penalty-level-loss ;; (Closed)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3353/death-penalty-idea ;; (Closed)
I too want de-leveling to be a risk when a player is just newly into a level.
Also, there was a time in EQ you could de-level but keep skill levels, which was fixed fairly rapidly. It was funny to see a level 1 doing huge hits in the newbie areas, but also continuing to increase those already high skill levels.
Keno Monster said:Thanks ba...1AD.
Drebin said: @oneADseven That is one hell of a helpful and informative post. Thanks very much for taking the time to share it.
Cheers fellas, happy to assist!
Porygon said:Let's be clear. There was never a fear of losing your corpse once people began to understand the game. The only fear of death became how much exp you would lose and how much time you had to spend
I've had one or two occasions where the fear of losing my character's corpse was real. I once had to sign off after a nasty wipe in the Plane of Fear in EQ, because it was getting really late for me in the EU and waiting for the recovery wasn't really an option. It was beyond my control at that point. I did give some guild mates consent to drag my corpse though, so when I signed back on I was able to grab my stuff at the entrance and get out quickly. The sense of relief I felt was much greater than any experience I had in several years of WoW.
Also, naked corpse runs significantly increase the risk of dying again and losing more XP as you try to get your corpse back. While that does prove your point, it also proves that having your stuff stay on your corpse after dying is key in amplifying that fear.
I like corpse runs and hate them at the same time. I have played many games where you just lose experience, and just found it annoying, but losing your corpse put some fear into me. I never was all that worried of getting my corpse back, but there was always that worry you might not get it back, especially if your group wiped deep in a dungeon. Still always managed to get my corpse back, but I never lost the emotion of losing all your stuff. Made for greater immersion for me.
Edit: However, this has been debated before and a good opposition to corpse running is the climate system in how some areas will need certain gear, and if you die in that area and not have a back up set to venture in to attempt to get your corpse, then it could be problematic.
Watemper said:I like corpse runs and hate them at the same time. I have played many games where you just lose experience, and just found it annoying, but losing your corpse put some fear into me. I never was all that worried of getting my corpse back, but there was always that worry you might not get it back, especially if your group wiped deep in a dungeon. Still always managed to get my corpse back, but I never lost the emotion of losing all your stuff. Made for greater immersion for me.
Edit: However, this has been debated before and a good opposition to corpse running is the climate system in how some areas will need certain gear, and if you die in that area and not have a back up set to venture in to attempt to get your corpse, then it could be problematic.
I remember watching one of Coh's streams where VR were showing off the dangerous weather effects. In this stream I got the impression that the weather effects were subverted by consumables that gave semi permanent buffs to your character against whatver elements you were trying to combat rather than having it rely upon the specific kind of gear you were wearing.
Drebin said:I remember watching one of Coh's streams where VR were showing off the dangerous weather effects. In this stream I got the impression that the weather effects were subverted by consumables that gave semi permanent buffs to your character against whatver elements you were trying to combat rather than having it rely upon the specific kind of gear you were wearing.
That stream was mostly a proof of concept kind of thing more than a direct representation of how they plan on it working.
Iksar said:Drebin said:I remember watching one of Coh's streams where VR were showing off the dangerous weather effects. In this stream I got the impression that the weather effects were subverted by consumables that gave semi permanent buffs to your character against whatver elements you were trying to combat rather than having it rely upon the specific kind of gear you were wearing.
That stream was mostly a proof of concept kind of thing more than a direct representation of how they plan on it working.
Has it been expanded upon since then? I feel like every time I learn something about the game it's quickly outadated and something newer and shinier has taken it's place. The pace of this game has really picked up recently.
Agreed 100%. And, I believe this is a perfect thread to link this blog by Wolfshead for the 1000th time on this forum: The Death Penality Mechanic and Loss Aversion
The fear of death and possibility of losing a level is a good thing. It makes you pay attention, it makes you care that your mess up caused the deaths of your group mates, and its yet another challenge that should be in gaming. When I played EQ and gained a level I made sure that I gained enough experience points to allow for an accidental death or two...and still keep my level. Thinking gamers...what a concept. :)
Cana
Raidan said:Agreed 100%. And, I believe this is a perfect thread to link this blog by Wolfshead for the 1000th time on this forum: The Death Penality Mechanic and Loss Aversion
Yeah, this thread has come up a few times. But experience lose alone is just annoying... the only thing that really keeps me scared of dying or caring about death is the possiblity, however slime that is, of losing your stuff.
Trasak, I think, came up with an interesting idea that I actually could get behind. Most of his ideas I don't like, but this one I could get behind. Anyways, I think it was Trasak, you could put a sort of insurance on your individual pieces of gear and w/e else you bring in your inventory, which will require money to do, and if you die and decide to not get your corpse, then you can go to this insurance guy and get w/e you insured on your body back, but your corpse will disappear and you won't be able to get a rez. They will have to catch some possible exploits, but it can be a pretty solid system if done correctly. So you will basically lose all of your loot that you gained in the dungeon and currency cannot be insured so w/e money you had on your body will be gone also.
Watemper said:Raidan said:Agreed 100%. And, I believe this is a perfect thread to link this blog by Wolfshead for the 1000th time on this forum: The Death Penality Mechanic and Loss Aversion
Yeah, this thread has come up a few times. But experience lose alone is just annoying... the only thing that really keeps me scared of dying or caring about death is the possiblity, however slime that is, of losing your stuff.
Trasak, I think, came up with an interesting idea that I actually could get behind. Most of his ideas I don't like, but this one I could get behind. Anyways, I think it was Trasak, you could put a sort of insurance on your individual pieces of gear and w/e else you bring in your inventory, which will require money to do, and if you die and decide to not get your corpse, then you can go to this insurance guy and get w/e you insured on your body back, but your corpse will disappear and you won't be able to get a rez. They will have to catch some possible exploits, but it can be a pretty solid system if done correctly. So you will basically lose all of your loot that you gained in the dungeon and currency cannot be insured so w/e money you had on your body will be gone also.
Experience loss is annoying?
I am curious what games have you been playing? That's pretty much how it works...or has in any McQuaid games. Just wondering why all that extra coding would be required to add all this "insurance" to each and every item in the game in order to fulfil your wish..is that a normal thing in the games you have been playing thus far?
Having to go get your corpse ..means possibly asking others for help, or helping others find theirs, or working together to accomplish other goals. It created and creates community. If you lose exps that might be because you weren't paying attention, or what you and your friends took on was stronger than what you were able to defeat.
Challenge. Learning curve. If games are made to be easy, as has been happening this last decade or so...then the challenge goes away, people get bored and leave for the next shiny game around the corner.
I am hoping to play Pantheon for literally years...look at Everquest ..granted it has changed much under new ownership, but it is still going after 19ish years. :)
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:Watemper said:Raidan said:Agreed 100%. And, I believe this is a perfect thread to link this blog by Wolfshead for the 1000th time on this forum: The Death Penality Mechanic and Loss Aversion
Yeah, this thread has come up a few times. But experience lose alone is just annoying... the only thing that really keeps me scared of dying or caring about death is the possiblity, however slime that is, of losing your stuff.
Trasak, I think, came up with an interesting idea that I actually could get behind. Most of his ideas I don't like, but this one I could get behind. Anyways, I think it was Trasak, you could put a sort of insurance on your individual pieces of gear and w/e else you bring in your inventory, which will require money to do, and if you die and decide to not get your corpse, then you can go to this insurance guy and get w/e you insured on your body back, but your corpse will disappear and you won't be able to get a rez. They will have to catch some possible exploits, but it can be a pretty solid system if done correctly. So you will basically lose all of your loot that you gained in the dungeon and currency cannot be insured so w/e money you had on your body will be gone also.
Experience loss is annoying?
I am curious what games have you been playing? That's pretty much how it works...or has in any McQuaid games. Just wondering why all that extra coding would be required to add all this "insurance" to each and every item in the game in order to fulfil your wish..is that a normal thing in the games you have been playing thus far?
Having to go get your corpse ..means possibly asking others for help, or helping others find theirs, or working together to accomplish other goals. It created and creates community. If you lose exps that might be because you weren't paying attention, or what you and your friends took on was stronger than what you were able to defeat.
Challenge. Learning curve. If games are made to be easy, as has been happening this last decade or so...then the challenge goes away, people get bored and leave for the next shiny game around the corner.
I am hoping to play Pantheon for literally years...look at Everquest ..granted it has changed much under new ownership, but it is still going after 19ish years. :)
Cana
I think you misunderstood me. I played alot of games that just, keyword JUST, have experience lose...which means I don't respect death as much. Now if corpse running and the possible lose of your gear if you don't get your gear back is in the game, then I respect death more.
Edit: I was just stating that people who hate corpse runs the insurance type of thing would be a good middle ground for me, and also be a good money sink.
Brad has said he's against item loss.
I think the insurance idea would single out poor folk. I'mean one that plays poor. Saves me getting stresses out if the Hill Giants are taken, or that guy just ninja looted that item that I could have sold, or that guy just need rolled on an item he can't use just to sell it.
Not that any of that is "ok" but it's just a lot less concern if I don't have to worry about paying insurance on my epic item.
With the insurance idea, now my Wizard is has a solid NEED to roll on that 2 handed sword I can sell for 100pp so I can pay insurance.
What I think to be a better mechanic would simply be a denial of items for a signifacant time. If you die and your corpse is unrecoverable. After a given time (I'm thinking 5 days) it will rot and your items will be given back to you with no experience recovery. If you recover your corpse (necro summon or another raid can give you a rez) you will get your items as well as experience recover based on how long it took. 2 days you get 60% 4the day you get 20% (actual time and numbers just for example of course)
Something like this I think could satisfy Brads concerns about item loss but still keep most if not all the satisfaction of the loss aversion outlined in the wolf head article (that I fully agree with btw)