Let's talk storage in this game. It's a thing that eventually becomes a problem in some fashion. How will storage work?
In this stream showing off a city mid development the party walks past a bank next to the Inn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz_29h3_Npw
The only thing I'd be wondering about really is if the bank storage is shared across the world or if it is only local storage. By this I mean If you put an item in bank A and you go to bank B, will the items you put into bank A show up or not?
I ask this because I don't know if there will be global auction houses or if trade will be more regional or local.
So...
In short you want to talk about storage to specify you don't want to worry about it ? Pretty straightforward...
And unlimited storage would ultimately create database issues, since you can hardly define a unlimited number for a character. But would at the same time create some terrible packrat behaviour where nothing get to sale and everything gets to be stored for "future use".
i think it should be limited to about equal the size of a player inventory, maybe 1.5 times that. So if you have 8 slots in which you can carry 8 backpacks to put stuff in, than the bank should be equal or to 12. It also depends entirely on the amount of items the game offers / needs. Cause i can imagine as a crafter if you require much more space it can become a problem not to have it.
so i geuss, per craft tier, if you need 20 common items, you will always want to have 40 slots to accomodate 2 tiers. + a little more to store stuff you still want to sell, store your player made stuff and other general items.
MauvaisOeil said:And unlimited storage would ultimately create database issues, since you can hardly define a unlimited number for a character.
Yes, for all practical purposes you can. There is a finite number of different storable items in the game, and all you have to do is save the number of each owned by each character. Saving 4,294,967,295 rat tails in a 32-bit database field takes up exactly as much space as saving 1. (If saved in a 64-bit database field, the number is 18,446,744,073,709,551,615). And even if someone were to collect more rat tails than that, and assuming VR wanted to support that, creating an extension record for the next 4,294,967,295 ones, would be trivial.
Of course there will also be some overhead keeping track of how the items are stored in the inventory, but database storage space per character will never be an issue in this context. In harddrive terms we're probably talking kilobytes per character, at most a few megabytes, which is nothing these days.
Kaliscio said:
I'm not sure I want to worry about storage space. Realistically, it's a thing to have space to store items in. Do I want to manage that in my game time...no.
I do. In fact, storage management is a key feature of cRPGs. In pen and paper AD&D, you could only carry as much as your characters strength (and ability to hold) would allow. This is why things like "bags of holding" and the like were a feature in the game. They were VERY difficult to obtain because being able to have infinite space has numerous effects on other game balance aspects. Space affects ones ability to earn money and carry it, loot, what type of gear they may be able to wear, etc... the player then is required to manage what is worth keeping and what is not, also giving distinct pros/cons to classes and races.
It also establishes a game play carrot where the player then seeks other means to help assist in this problem (be it more/bigger bags, spells to reduce carry weight, etc...). Also, combining this with encumbrance, the player then can easily put themselves in bad situations where they take on too much and this burden causes them to take extra falling damage when they fall as well as slowing them down to a chasing mob.
Storage and its management is an integral game play feature in these types of games. Getting rid of it serves no purpose other than to provide "convenience" to the player and I think that is counter to what this game is trying to achieve is it not? Is not "convenience" the very aspect of modern MMOs to why many are seeking Pantheon?
I think if we want Pantheon to be a good “game” and not simply an entertainment ride, we need to think about things we have taken for granted and how they have an effect on game play which has turned modern games into the lack of appeal they are. In my opinion, it is not any one big thing as to why I miss EQ, rather it is the many “subtle” elements of play that we threw away because we thought they were too much effort in play. That is what I think killed MMOs for me.
decarsul said:i think it should be limited to about equal the size of a player inventory, maybe 1.5 times that. So if you have 8 slots in which you can carry 8 backpacks to put stuff in, than the bank should be equal or to 12. It also depends entirely on the amount of items the game offers / needs. Cause i can imagine as a crafter if you require much more space it can become a problem not to have it.
so i geuss, per craft tier, if you need 20 common items, you will always want to have 40 slots to accomodate 2 tiers. + a little more to store stuff you still want to sell, store your player made stuff and other general items.
I would rather have storage tied to player strength and then implement numerous features both in solutions and obstacles that have an effect on what someone is able to carry (the environment system would work well into such obstacles and various magic/technical achievements could provide some solutions). My only concern is making storage an indefinite problem for the player. It needs to be something that the player always is seeking to remedy. MMOs have the problem with the fact that they are technically infinite in thier progression, which creates problems for storage as a game play element (among many others).
Storage in a bank or house (when they have houses) may actually be less important than what kind of carrying capacity each character has.
Limit items carried by weight or encumbrance, perhaps with strength letting you carry more (a traditional "old school" system) and the annoyance and need to manage inventory causes considerations of bank storage to almost pale into insignificance. Note that when I say "annoyance" that doesn't mean I dislike such systems - as with death penalties things that make a game harder and more complicated can be a plus.
Also highly relevant is the mail system. Allow instant delivery of mail from anywhere to anywhere and storage is less of an issue, especially if you can have more than one or two characters on a server. Hopefully mail won't be nearly that unrealistic.
As referred to earlier in the thread, it isn't just the amount of storage that matters it is access to it. If you need to go to the bank branch where you put something in order to get it out having 100 storage slots may feel more limited than having 25 accessible at any bank.
Let us not forget the interrelation with crafting or coin. Can crafters make items that let you hold more things, or store more things. Can you use in-game currency to buy more storage.
Going further afield - will VR feel the need to use this as a revenue source. Almost all of us hate the idea of in-game stores and microtransactions. On the other hand almost all of us accept the concept of *some* things being available for sale in a website store though we have many opinions as to what things bother us and what do not. Character slots, changes of name, server transfers and the like are common even outside of microtransaction based games (yes there are disadvantages to this we need not debate it - my point is merely that they *are* common even in subscription-based games).
Will VR sell anything this way? Quite likely. Will it extend to items that characters can actually use in the game - almost surely not. Will it extend to in-game cosmetic items? Probably not unless they really need the revenue to make things work. Will it extend to storage space - which you can buy for real world money in some MMOs - let us hope not but it is not entirely inconceivable either.
I think storage limitations should be a thing. It forces me to make decisions as to what to keep or not keep. I would rather sell stuff to merchants to make room in bags for quest related stuff, than constantly lug that burden around in the hopes to maybe sell it to players, shackling myself to my own pixelated desires.
Tanix, I can go with what you are saying. You are right, this game is trying to undo what a lot of people had considered "progress" for the modern MMO for the sake of convenience. In light of that, I will say let's have limited storage on one's person and unlimited in a storage area. How about you start with those 20 spaces in the storage area and you have to earn more space in whatever way is deemed appropriate. You can earn unlimited space. The only limit is how much effort you are willing to put in for that extra space which can be pretty awesome when looked at in that way.
Inventory space restriction and encumbrance are a big part of gameplay the gameplay loop in any "grindy" CRPG imo, MMO or not. It breaks up sessions into little chunks and become part of the deciding where to grind. Finding vendors, banks and any other way to unload stuff, imprinting the geography of the zones into your memory (especially in a game without a map) are all linked to this limit. It can be a soft-cap on how far you can go, a trade-off to consider whether you want to maximise XP or profit etc.
I'm sure there are other things but I could come up with this stuff off the top of my head here and now. I'd be quite careful in making bags bottomless.
Spluffen said:Inventory space restriction and encumbrance are a big part of gameplay the gameplay loop in any "grindy" CRPG imo, MMO or not. It breaks up sessions into little chunks and become part of the deciding where to grind. Finding vendors, banks and any other way to unload stuff, imprinting the geography of the zones into your memory (especially in a game without a map) are all linked to this limit. It can be a soft-cap on how far you can go, a trade-off to consider whether you want to maximise XP or profit etc.
I'm sure there are other things but I could come up with this stuff off the top of my head here and now. I'd be quite careful in making bags bottomless.
More good points, Spluffen. Unlimited space you can earn 20 bag slots at a time. Could that be bad? Let's discuss.
Kaliscio said:
Tanix, I can go with what you are saying. You are right, this game is trying to undo what a lot of people had considered "progress" for the modern MMO for the sake of convenience. In light of that, I will say let's have limited storage on one's person and unlimited in a storage area. How about you start with those 20 spaces in the storage area and you have to earn more space in whatever way is deemed appropriate. You can earn unlimited space. The only limit is how much effort you are willing to put in for that extra space which can be pretty awesome when looked at in that way.
Here is the thing. A common element in game system design that gets overlooked is the negative component of play (too many developers miss the basis of this and chase "fun" as the defining factor and so miss the point). The negative however is the "key" element to which defines gaming itself. A game isn't simply entertainment, that is why some may play a game, but a game is not entertainment. A game is an activity where the player competes against themselves , others or a system to overcome obstacles or difficulties within the confines of rules or regulations. So, the key aspect is that the game challenges the character.
So, when I look at various things in an RPG system, I think of what the objective is. An RPG is based on developing a role in a fictional world. The game is to develop it to overcome many of the obstacles within it. That means various approaches to design concepts should focus on providing obstacles to which the player overcomes through development (exploring, questing, leveling, etc...). Storage as I previously explained is a component of that.
Anyway, sorry to take the long way around to this point, but I wanted to be clear here in my position. The point is that if we simply give an arbitrary default amount, why are we doing this and what purpose does it serve in the characters development? Why would all characters have a default amount of space regardless of their physical ability? What purpose does such serve outside of seeking a "convenience" in play? I mean, I understand your point about progression (ie getting more space) and this makes sense in a progression development system, but why start with some arbitrary amount that does not take into fact character development itself? Would not assigning how much one can cary to a statistic like Strength or similar stat provide a means to differentiate between class/race and therefore provide depth in play through selecting pros/cons? Would not such also be more compatible with the spirit to that of an RPG's development system?
I am not saying your idea is wrong, just that it seems a bit generic. If you don't mind me asking, what makes you think of this system? Why a default amount to all? What is your reasoning as opposed to something tied to an attribute or the like?
Spluffen said:Inventory space restriction and encumbrance are a big part of gameplay the gameplay loop in any "grindy" CRPG imo, MMO or not. It breaks up sessions into little chunks and become part of the deciding where to grind. Finding vendors, banks and any other way to unload stuff, imprinting the geography of the zones into your memory (especially in a game without a map) are all linked to this limit. It can be a soft-cap on how far you can go, a trade-off to consider whether you want to maximise XP or profit etc.
I'm sure there are other things but I could come up with this stuff off the top of my head here and now. I'd be quite careful in making bags bottomless.
Agreed, and a very important point. Notice how something as simple as bag space has subtle effects to many other systems? This is why in my opinion, convenience is at odds with game play development. It is all too easy to lay such at the feet of "pointless waste of time" when the real issue is one simply not wanting to have to deal with the management of character progression. This is at the heart of what I think has killed MMOs and why I am very leery when people use subjective evaluations of "waste of time" when describing a given game obstacle they "personally" don't want to deal with. After all, some of the games I have enjoyed most in my years are those to which I had to deal with elements I disliked in order to achieve victory. I mean, is it really a victory if everything we do is "convenient”?
bigdogchris said:It was mentioned before that banking is local only. Not sure how long that will last...
It works for Eve Online but then again that game has a huge PvP component making it risky transferring wealth and assets between locations. Making storage local and trade local can create interesting scenarios for the economy of the game.
VR said they had employed some proffessional economists to help with this sort of thing so it could be really interesting. Another thing it will reduce is people sitting in one capital city by encouraging more moving about the world.
Suppose only time will tell.
I'm game for limited carrying capacity, weight and encumbrance.
Although off-character storage (such as in banks or player/guild housing once that's introduced) should have a very, very high limit. I'd much rather see people being able to buy additional slots of storage space at reasonable prices instead of making mule alts the de facto standard to solve all storage capacity problems.
Kaliscio said:Spluffen said:Inventory space restriction and encumbrance are a big part of gameplay the gameplay loop in any "grindy" CRPG imo, MMO or not. It breaks up sessions into little chunks and become part of the deciding where to grind. Finding vendors, banks and any other way to unload stuff, imprinting the geography of the zones into your memory (especially in a game without a map) are all linked to this limit. It can be a soft-cap on how far you can go, a trade-off to consider whether you want to maximise XP or profit etc.
I'm sure there are other things but I could come up with this stuff off the top of my head here and now. I'd be quite careful in making bags bottomless.
More good points, Spluffen. Unlimited space you can earn 20 bag slots at a time. Could that be bad? Let's discuss.
I think it makes sense to be able to use as much bank space as you want as long as you can pay for it. Gameplay-wise I don't think limiting players on how much they can store in their banks will change anything, people will just make bank alts. As for bags its a much different thing. Things you loot go to your bag and whats in your bag is immediately avaliable to you. What goes in there in a game like EQ would have three limiting factors, weight, the number of avaliable slots and (if in a bag) the size attribute of the container. WoW is a bit more relaxed and only considers the amount of slots. In both of those games, though, there is a limited amount of slots to put bags in and the way you increase your inventory after that is by getting bags with more slots in them, which of course have a soft-cap in the sense that the largest bag avaliable in-game is just that.
Increasing inventory space as part of character progression seems rewarding as well as makes sense in the context of the game. How that is done, though (and I assume it is done in the way of Everquest because the inventory screen looks almost identical in the streams), is highly relative to what kinds and sizes of bags will be avaliable. Personally I think it would be more fun to tie that to classes, professions etc. rather than paying a vendor an ever increasing amount of gold for an extra 20 bag slots (the way that "bank bags" worked in classic wow, a broken and useless system).
As for the number of slots, you say 20, I don't think we can constructivley discuss at all since the game isn't out and we don't know the frequency of item drops.
I still wish VR would switch to bags that have a weight and volume limit rather than a slot based system. I really don't see a good reason not to use the combined table method to display the contents in a bag rather than a set grid. Granted it will require item creators to add a volume to the item but it should be pretty easy to apply a fairly generic volume value by item type already created items and new items will have a similar selector.
With this system giving something a high volume and or weight value will make it a portion of the challenge of retrieving the item for player use. Bank storage boxes will be purchased by the volume rather than by the slot though I suppose you could even have a magical storage box created that increases that volume even further. As Jabir said the number it items a player owns is no longer really an issue like it was in the late 90s when the slot based inventory system was generated due to server limitations.
Drebin said:I am onboard with limiting a character's carry capacity and basing it on something like strength in a pathfinder tabletop sort of fashion now. I see the need just from beginning replies. My point was to get the discussion going and see where people sit and how much thought has been given is all.
bigdogchris said:It was mentioned before that banking is local only. Not sure how long that will last...
It works for Eve Online but then again that game has a huge PvP component making it risky transferring wealth and assets between locations. Making storage local and trade local can create interesting scenarios for the economy of the game.
VR said they had employed some proffessional economists to help with this sort of thing so it could be really interesting. Another thing it will reduce is people sitting in one capital city by encouraging more moving about the world.
Suppose only time will tell.
Oh, I've never played Eve Online. That sounds like one of the best ideas ever and a top contender for making storage and trade local. Great point.
Now I am onboard with local and limited storage. We can still let players upgrade storage space at a bank in interesting ways. What are some of the more interesting ways you can think of that do this?
If VR plans on having a robust faction system, then increasing bank slots through increase in city faction would be a clever way to create incentive to allow you to store more items. There could also be a "caravan" faction that allows your bank items to be shared between certain city banks as well.
As far as bags are concerned, it would be wise to have "bank only" bags that have a lot more carrying capacity than what your character can equip. For harvestors it would be cool to have a special backpack that can hold those items at a higher capacity so your inventory doesn't fill up super fast.