Forums » The Bard

Should bards do damage?

    • 35 posts
    April 10, 2020 2:32 PM PDT

    I see bards a lot like rogues with a lute that can get down when they are in the tavern.. Rogues sulk in the corner.  Social rogues... yea, that's a bard. 

    • 71 posts
    April 12, 2020 12:09 PM PDT

    As others have suggested, bards will need to be able to deal damage, likely through both basic melee skills and musical abilities. I'd like to see the bard's damage on par with a healer's damage potential. The bard really isn't in the group for their personal DPS, but rather their ability to greatly augment the overall group performance. Whether that be through augmenting the group's melee capabilities or spell casting capabaities, or through controlling the environment and mobs around them by using their Crowd Control or pulling ability.

    To speak to the "jack of all trades" part of the bard class, they should be able to increase their personal DPS by singing damaging songs (but still not at the levels of a true DPS class), but at the sacrifice of not being able to maintain their other group buffs.  

    • 1986 posts
    September 3, 2020 9:08 PM PDT

    Basically what Kumu said. A solid answer. But as to the OP's question. The answer is yes! However, I would like to see them think outside the box a bit in how they approach the mechanics and the flavor of Bards in Pantheon. I wouldnt mind seeing them be more of a magic than a melee class. And do various types of sonic based damage with their instruments.

    • 128 posts
    September 3, 2020 10:24 PM PDT

    I think bards should do some damage, perhaps as much as others have said (about like a healer), because the catch is; the Bard is a force multiplier, and they will likely do their damage contribution while performing their normal duty of amplifying the performance of the party, whereas a healer for example would likely have to choose one or the other. Because of that, I think the Bard's damage output can be somewhat low and yet still viable.

    • 7 posts
    September 23, 2020 7:37 PM PDT

    Mathematically, I think bards should do melee damage below that of a tank. I think there are more meaningful things than just raw damage output that a bard can provide.

     

    Negatives:

    • Master of nothing
    • Damage of group overall may be reduced versus having another dps player

     

    Positives:

    • Jack of all trades
    • Provide utility to the group that will provide a smoother experience when in a dungeon
    • Overall damage output for teammates is buffed
    • Overall resistance to magic damage for teammates is buffed
    • Overall resistance to melee damage for teammates is buffed
    • Potentially things like charisma / luck rolls / etc all buffed
    • Being able to provide multiple of the above (and more obviously) at any given time depending on the situation

     

    So when thinking about the bard class, I think one of the greatest traits of this class is the overall utility; not the min/max of a given situation. While you may not need a bard to get by, a bard should provide a noticeable reduction in having to be perfect with every decision made, moreso than their overall damage contribution. I would go so far as to even say the damage multiplier they provide to a single group should not do greater overall damage than that of which another dps would bring. Otherwise, you risk the benefit that a dps player brings of their own volition. 


    This post was edited by shooj at September 23, 2020 7:41 PM PDT
    • 6 posts
    November 9, 2020 3:08 PM PST

    shooj said:

    • Potentially things like charisma / luck rolls / etc all buffed

     

    It would be great for bards to instead of having the ability to take hits like a tank or deal damage like a caster their LUCK rolls are huge so they do get a good shot in from time to time and mobs do miss them more often when attacking.  Being a low damage bard but getting more high hits overall would even things out a bit.  Same with getting attacked.  It made me think of one of the Super Hero movies (forget which one) where a female character had the ability of extreme luck so small things always happened in her favor.

    Even have goofey stuff like maybe a Bard's charisma could affect the monsters as well so they are less likely to even try to attack them. (Orc think: Hmm that music sounds pretty, I'll kill him last!)

    • 394 posts
    November 13, 2020 10:00 PM PST

    All spellsingers here then and playing Jon-Tom (Alan Dean Foster, sorry, just had to name it :) )

    • 516 posts
    November 19, 2020 7:43 PM PST
    I would love to see Pantheon do something different, like maybe a Bard spell weaver. Or make them ranged DPS with a bow.
    • 1137 posts
    November 24, 2020 7:22 AM PST

    Nanfoodle said: I would love to see Pantheon do something different, like maybe a Bard spell weaver. Or make them ranged DPS with a bow.

    Me too.  The EQ "Bard" was too much of a "jack of all trades" because it was also the master of so many things if you knew what you were doing.  In "some" situations I could out CC an Enchanter, out DPS (sustained) more than some DPS classes and even out tank non-raid targets (as far as holding threat and not dying).  I went back recently to mess around and went and got my epic (since I never got it years ago); I was soloing dragons (to include Trak - who teleports you away if you remember... but Bard can solo it now).  It would be nice if they were just a range CC class that used music as their "magic".  But they will likely be the jack or all trades, master of all again.  :(

    • 1533 posts
    November 24, 2020 3:35 PM PST

    Nanfoodle said: I would love to see Pantheon do something different, like maybe a Bard spell weaver. Or make them ranged DPS with a bow.

    I'm not a serious stickler for realism by any means. But I feel that if I find myself playing a 2-handed instrument to maintain CC in combat AND adding a bit of damage with a 2-handed weapon (like a bow) simultaneously, I fear I will find the situation just a bit TOO ridiculous to believe.

    • 1137 posts
    December 3, 2020 11:50 AM PST

    Jothany said:

    I'm not a serious stickler for realism by any means. But I feel that if I find myself playing a 2-handed instrument to maintain CC in combat AND adding a bit of damage with a 2-handed weapon (like a bow) simultaneously, I fear I will find the situation just a bit TOO ridiculous to believe.

    In this scenario, an easy solution would be for the Bard to use their "voice" as an instrument, while wielding a weapon (like in EQ) to deal damage; OR they could focus on CC and hold an instrument (instead of weapons) to provide improved CC at the sacrifice of reduced damage (because they can't hold an instrument and weapon at the same time - like in EQ).  


    This post was edited by Darch at December 3, 2020 11:51 AM PST
    • 1533 posts
    December 3, 2020 4:46 PM PST

    Darch said:

    In this scenario, an easy solution would be for the Bard to use their "voice" as an instrument, while wielding a weapon (like in EQ) to deal damage; OR they could focus on CC and hold an instrument (instead of weapons) to provide improved CC at the sacrifice of reduced damage (because they can't hold an instrument and weapon at the same time - like in EQ).  

    Having Bards start with just singing, which they can do regardless of what else they are doing, would be just fine. As they level, they could find/craft/quest for different instruments, which would add bonuses to their songs. Perhaps at first they could get simpler, 1 handed instruments, which could be held in the offhand. At higher levels, more powerful 2 handed instruments would be needed in high end dungeons and raids. With them, it would be all song or all damage.

    That I could work with.

    • 871 posts
    December 6, 2020 3:39 AM PST

    Haha, its all in the eyes! Lock eyes with a musician going into the zone and you go with them :)

    • 114 posts
    January 27, 2021 3:27 AM PST

    Paloo said:

    For me a Bard has always been jack of all trades and master of non.  You have to realize when talking fantasy bards they had their orgins stemmed from midevil time bards. These bards traveled from tavern to tavern preforming, usually as a troupe of some sort.  They had all sorts fo ways to accomplish their living. From stealing, to killing to defending oneself. EQ bard was so right on the money. They could do magical effects from music, and could use about any weapon. Not as good as a rogue with a dagger but good enough. Not as good as ranger with Bow but good enough.  

     

    In my 20+ years of playing bards in about every game out there, from pen and paper to bards tale to Everquest and so on. Bards shoudl be exactly that jack of everything and master of non(except over land travel speed is must to be master of). Let me stick some mob with a sword while singing a litte ditty. Let me soak a few hits while tank gets over to take the mob. Let me mesmerize the mobs with an irish jig. Let me shot that dragon while I race by laughing a joyious laugh. Let me patch heal till the healer gets unstunned. Basiclly let me be the one that a group doesn't need but when I am there they really notice a difference.

     

    This is what I loved about the EQ bard EQ2 Dirge I always had something to offer and could do a bit of every thing  not the best but some added healing tanking even kiting adds is tanking/cc role DPS 

    • 1533 posts
    January 27, 2021 8:15 PM PST

    That's not quite how I expected it to be, but if it turned out that way I could certainly enjoy playing it.

    • 127 posts
    March 15, 2021 1:05 AM PDT

    No, Bard should only toss coins to your enchanter, ...


    This post was edited by Khraag at March 15, 2021 1:34 AM PDT
    • 123 posts
    August 30, 2021 2:12 AM PDT

    Barin999 said:Should bards be able to buff a single target? How would you explain that? 


    Yes, through eloquence. The bard could offer words of encouragement, pay compliments, heap praise, throw glitter/confetti, etc. Warning an ally could increase their resists or armor class. Indicating weaknesses in the opponent's armor could act as a dexterity buff. Advising could boost wisdom and/or intellect. Stream of consciousness could accelerate mana regeneration.

    I always liked the idea of a positive effect being fully or partially resisted due to poor execution. Socializing is an art. It is easy to commit a faux pas, especially in different cultures but even on one's own by being too forward or not accomodating enough. If singing, the lyrics could be in a very specific or dead language with the language barrier preventing others from fully appreciating it.

    Barin999 said:Debuffs have the same issue. 

    Personal insults and taunting gestures could act as single target debuffs. Cursing at a target could leave them nonplussed, stunned momentarily. Throwing rotten food at a target could lower its charisma. Flirting with a target could function as continuous lull that would gradually build into a charm if applied repeatedly barring a resist. Entertaining a single target could keep it preoccupied, briefly mesmerized. A disarming dance could cause a target to lower their defenses and possibly even prevent them from moving or engaging in physical combat, while still being able to cast spells.

    With the use of a lowered voice, the bard could tell a joke. Assuming it isn't resisted, that joke causes the listener to laugh, with their weapons lowered and their vision blurred with tears (debuff). If the joke "crits" than the target rolls on the floor laughing uncontrollably, immobilized for a longer duration. The same ability could be AE but with a weaker debuff, spread out evenly, with a shorter duration on CC and smaller chance to crit. It could also depend on the N/PCs having high enough INT to actually get the joke, and ears to hear its delivery. Insert skeleton cackle here.

    Barin999 said:Not everyone is behind the idea of bards doing melee damage. For me, that does provide a logical way for a bard to actually damage a target.

    What are you thoughts about this? 



    Perhaps that could be achieved through the use of mastery points, for those wanting to assume the role of the debonair swashbuckler. LAS seems like it would allow for some melee abilities as well. So if the group or raid has an overabundance of buffs and crowd control, the bard could always stick the enemy with their rapier or crack that whip. 

    Barin999 said:How would you explain single target music or damage by song? (I'm not talking about debuffs, but actual damage)


    With each instrument causing damage to the part of the body or armor it most closely resembles. A stringed instrument being plucked harshly, either causing nerve damage to an enemy or yanking at hair, pulling it tight. The pounding of a drum focused with intent on one target, causing damage to their heart, hurrying or slowing its beat. A horn (rather than being blown into) drawing air from the target's lungs, silencing and damaging them. A chime or bell being shook violently in the direction of an enemy from a distance, magically causing plate armor to dent in places, crushing the wearer slowly over time. 


    This post was edited by Leevolen at September 5, 2021 8:04 PM PDT
    • 1975 posts
    November 13, 2021 6:53 AM PST

    I am not a fan of bards, I think they shoud be the most gimped class in game, but...I love and prefer to have a bard in group every chance I get choosing a bard over another class if a choice has to be made.

    I think bards should be mostly support and be the most dependent of all- hardly a solo class, like an impossible solo class, they must get someone (seek the adoration, accolades and applause of an audience) to do anything. They cannot function unless they have that feedback loop from others, a class enforced sycophancy.

    How-e-ver. should a bard fight. I can see them being quick and sharp. multiple strikes, low damage. The advantage being that so many rapid strikes makes a possibility to shock/stun the MoB. Or in the manner of Kendo swordsmanship (like the original starwars lightabre, not the "Hassan, Chop!" daffy duck/bamboo slice style) where, the blades being essentially large razorblades, it is the many light cuts that eventually exhausts the opponent- the stress on the body trying to heal so many small cuts is too much. Stamina and strikes, not outright kills. Like a quick wit, or always ready with a song to fit the occasion in an instant, ready with entertainment or inspiration to rally the troops when all seems lost. 

    I dont think they should be armor dependent, but rather more avoidance skills, like dodge and agility based movement maybe even a quick-step (dance) or a light mez (snake charm, square dance) . Plus there are meme's and science that have Music being a weapon, Kung-fu hustle being one, and harmonics, sound waves, a sung perfect pitch shattering a crystal glass kind of things, indistinguishable from magic?

     

    • 1533 posts
    November 13, 2021 11:26 AM PST

    Manouk said: I am not a fan of bards, I think they shoud be the most gimped class in game

    I'm curious as to why Bards should suffer this fate?

    I could see an argument to make all of the Support/CC Classes the lowest DPS and/or most gimped. Not sure whether I'd support that or not, but I can see how one could argue it. But making it just the Bard? What is the reason, beyond just not liking them?

    • 1137 posts
    November 17, 2021 10:38 AM PST

    Manouk said:

    I am not a fan of bards, I think they shoud be the most gimped class in game, but...I love and prefer to have a bard in group every chance I get choosing a bard over another class if a choice has to be made.

    I think bards should be mostly support and be the most dependent of all- hardly a solo class, like an impossible solo class, they must get someone (seek the adoration, accolades and applause of an audience) to do anything. They cannot function unless they have that feedback loop from others, a class enforced sycophancy.

    I dont think they should be armor dependent, but rather more avoidance skills, like dodge and agility based movement maybe even a quick-step (dance) or a light mez (snake charm, square dance) . Plus there are meme's and science that have Music being a weapon, Kung-fu hustle being one, and harmonics, sound waves, a sung perfect pitch shattering a crystal glass kind of things, indistinguishable from magic?

    I'm not "disagreeing" with you since this is all opinion based; I will however give you a different perspective regarding "the performer needing admiration and an audience" to do anything... who's to say that the Bard's target(s) isn't their "captive audience"... to the point that they fight each other over the Bard's adoration?  i.e. Charm/Mez/Fear/Stun or otherwise having your enemies fight for you/over you is a powerful way to destroy your enemies and would make for very effective soloing... without having to be a martial combatant.

    • 3028 posts
    November 17, 2021 4:55 PM PST

    Who is to say bards all covet attention or admiration anyway? Perhaps they are just people skilled in music or poetry etc that realized and harnessed the power in it? 

    • 1137 posts
    November 23, 2021 8:24 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Charm/Mez/Fear/Stun or otherwise having your enemies fight for you/over you is a powerful way to destroy your enemies and would make for very effective soloing... without having to be a martial combatant.

    The more I think about this the more I like the idea of a Bard not relying on a weilding weapons and just using instruments essentially being a medium armor wearing caster, seriously boosting allies and hampering enemies or utilizing charm/mez similar to how an Enchanter would except being heavily reliant on maintaining songs...

    • 1533 posts
    November 25, 2021 3:52 PM PST

    Darch said: The more I think about this the more I like the idea of a Bard not relying on a weilding weapons and just using instruments essentially being a medium armor wearing caster, seriously boosting allies and hampering enemies or utilizing charm/mez similar to how an Enchanter would except being heavily reliant on maintaining songs...

    In Vanguard, my Bard could kill effectively with weapons or with his music. I used both at different times.

    There is one key point about using your music offensively that is easy to overlook. A Bard (like both other CC Classes) will have a combat resource he uses. If he has to use up that resource to kill as well as CC, then he's necessarily going to be much more reluctant to use very much of it for dps, as he will never be sure how much he'll need to properly do his job throughout the fight.

    More generally, if the ultimate magic user - a Wizard - gets a melee weapon with which he can contribute some small amount of damage to the group, it would be hard to justify a Bard not having one.

    • 714 posts
    November 26, 2021 4:34 AM PST

    Makes me think of Kung Fu Hustle when The Harpists Attack.

    • 1533 posts
    November 26, 2021 10:06 AM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said: Makes me think of Kung Fu Hustle when The Harpists Attack.

    Yeah, those Harpists could join my group anytime!