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Crafter's Roundtable: Fishing in Pantheon

    • 1723 posts
    November 27, 2018 4:40 PM PST

    It’s time for another Crafter’s Roundtable! For those who haven't seen these before, Crafter's Roundtable threads are something that the stafff at Pantheon Crafters puts together on a regular basis.  We ask questions that are intended to get the community talking, and help VR see what we'd like for crafting in Pantheon.  As part of our new format, to help get discussion started, we asked all of our staff writers here at Pantheon Crafters to weigh in on the topic ahead of time. Please feel free to agree with us, disagree with us, tell us we're all nuts, react with appropriate expressions of fright or horror to our ideas, or simply tell us what YOU think! :)

    The question:

    Many MMOs are known for their unique takes on fishing. Whether it's having to have the right kind of bait or having to reel the fish in the right way, fishing is often the one gathering skill that actually asks for some player skill. Not to mention it's a great way to take time out from killing things and just quietly enjoy the game and maybe some conversation. So when it comes to fishing, just how "deep" do you think it should go in Pantheon, and how do you think it should work and fit into the rest of the game?


    Here's what our staff had to say. Check out their opinions, and then post your own below!

    From Autherial:

    Honestly I really like how Black Desert does fishing. You can fish anywhere. Based on skill you can see seagulls circling a spot that means it is a hotspot and you have a better chance of catching rare or larger fish. Once you get a bite a bite meter shows up. It fills up like a power meter and you have to press space before the meter drops below a certain line. Then when the fish is hooked you have a mini game. A series of letters appear and you must press them in order before the timer runs out, rare or larger fish have a bigger code to input, it goes like this aabdfeddfasseed. This has been the most fun system of fishing I have played, I would like to see some variant of it in Pantheon.


    From Khaleesi:

    It would be nice to see a player driven or self driven (with less return) platform with some mini-game elements - but not too quirky.

    Let it be expansive, and wild. Beautiful if you are prepared and the sun is out and waves are splashing... or miserable, and wet, and cold, and frustrating, and hard if you are unprepared and starving in the cold environment wilderness, stuck in a shabby tent with a sock-thread line and bent metal hook with dirt for a lure.

    The devs have discussed built-in voice channels. You should be able to take a boat out with your guildie and sit with a bottle of water or beer, cast your line and with good bait wait for the bobber to drop.

    You should be able to go to a stream and hope to avoid the trees while casting the fly up river, hoping to attract the attention of one of the thousands of majestic jumping salmon on their annual run.

    Of course, it should always be better with a friend.


    From Tragic:

    For most people, fishing needs to be relevant in some capacity to impact the economy or for people to even do it. I like the idea of a mini-game where you can really get into the emersion. First, I would like to see crafted equipment that utilizes different materials to make poles, lures, hooks, etc. This will allow for a better catch during tournaments, larger stat foods, and so on. I like the idea of fishing in hostile waters to give the best opportunity for a “big catch.” Each fish should have RNG on size and rarity, thus allowing only the most skilled, well-equipped fisherman to bring in the best catch. This could be used for a leaderboard showing the largest fish from each species in the world/server to be displayed on a website. I love the idea of crafting and gathering leaderboards to give credit to those that play the full scope of the game, not just PvP or raids.


    From Trasak:

    First the most complicated fishing mini game in an MMO to date should be the baseline for how complicated and involved I would like to see all harvesting and crafting mini games.

    Second I still think that harvesting should be an exclusive profession choice to make it more valuable and the player economy be even more interdependent. I would split the harvesting professions into: Animal, Vegetable and Mineral. The animal harvester would be responsible for skinning, fishing and certain other animal products as well as the only way to get the tracking skill.


    From Nephele:

    Fishing is the sort of thing I never really think about, but always end up doing in every MMO ever. When I sat down and thought about this I found myself asking why I actually did that. I mean, I'm not big into fishing by any stretch, and I'm usually not a food crafter so I typically don't really need the fish that I would catch all that much. But I'll still spend a bunch of time doing it.

    After thinking about it for a bit, I realized that part of why I like it so much is the complexity it can have compared to other types of gathering. In a lot of games, gathering wood or metal or skins is just a matter of finding the right thing and whacking it with your gathering tool. But not so, fishing. For fishing, you need the right bait. The right tackle. You need to be in the right place. And in some games, at the right time of day or in the right weather. And that's just to have a chance of getting the fish you want - if there's a minigame involved, you have to do that too.

    That complexity, that depth, is what I really enjoy about fishing - far more than the fishing itself, really. Now I'm not suggesting that there should be ore you can mine only at night during certain phases of the moon, but it seems to me that other forms of harvesting might benefit from being more robust, like fishing.

    As for fishing itself in Pantheon, I kind of hope the same things I do for all harvesting and crafting: I hope that equipment matters and that it can be crafted by player crafters. I hope that there's complexity and depth to it, and it's not just as simple as pressing a button or two. I hope that the fish you get from it are very useful and desirable. I hope that you're rewarded for traveling around and fishing in different places, and that you're not really encouraged just to stay in one spot grinding away at the same fish to advance. And finally, I hope it can enable social gameplay - I'm totally down with having stats on fish like size or weight that would allow players to put on fishing tournaments, or anything that helps the world feel like more of, you know, a world.


    Now let’s hear from all of you! Post and let us know how you think Pantheon should do fishing!

    • 472 posts
    November 28, 2018 10:30 AM PST

    I'll toss in a curve ball. Fishing should also come with a chance that while sea fishing that one fishes too deeply and too greedily, thus spawning an angry sea monster. It can be a boss or a raid mob, but the chance it can pop is totally random. ;)

    Also, fishing as a mini game can be fun. The materials from it can be used in an assortment of crafts if you want to link it into that. The fish obviously as food but also maybe the scales and seaweed as armor mats. Also trophies for whenever player housing arrives. Who knows? Maybe there are even treasure maps or rescue in a bottle missions floating around out there.


    This post was edited by Kratuk at November 28, 2018 10:30 AM PST
    • 2027 posts
    November 28, 2018 3:16 PM PST

    So long as an Ogre and shove a Dwarf onto a hook to use as bait, I'm all for fishing.

    • 472 posts
    November 28, 2018 4:15 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    So long as an Ogre and shove a Dwarf onto a hook to use as bait, I'm all for fishing.

    HOW DARRRREEEEE YOU! We fish with gnomes around here. Besides, they glow and splash around more. Dwarves sink like a rock.

    • 167 posts
    November 28, 2018 7:30 PM PST

    The response really made me think a bit more that I would normally give to the Fishing subject. Why do I fish in games? Looking back, it was because I was bored and wanted to do something different, I needed crafting mats, or I just needed a relaxing solo activity to get away from it all (just like RL). Fishing is technically gathering but I really do not see it that way as much as I see it as a mini-game. I don't know or care if it needs to be simple as mining a node or as complex as raid bosses. It just needs to be in the game.

    I do look for fishing to accomplish some mainstay type goals (loots): Yes, fish as a food, fish as a material, but also fishing up a rare spawn (possibly trophy fishing mentioned elsewhere). On top of that; I wish to have the ability to fish up a quest, fish up a crate/box/bag/gear/seaweed/Bossmob spawning token/treasure map/message in a bottle, and other stuff. Is it too much of a stretch to somehow roll the perception system into fishing? Maybe have the occasional fish yank me into the water and under the water (who knows what can happen then-otherwise inaccessible underwater grotto).

    As a person that fishes a bit IRL, I do acknowledge that weather, barometric pressure, and time of day definately play a part in success or failure so I think it would be fun to see Climate and day/night conditions and if storms are in game; storm fronts coming through situations.


    This post was edited by Dashed at November 28, 2018 7:31 PM PST
    • 647 posts
    November 29, 2018 12:06 AM PST

    Kratuk said:

    Also, fishing as a mini game can be fun. The materials from it can be used in an assortment of crafts if you want to link it into that. The fish obviously as food but also maybe the scales and seaweed as armor mats. Also trophies for whenever player housing arrives. Who knows? Maybe there are even treasure maps or rescue in a bottle missions floating around out there.

     

    I already said my bit on the Pantheon crafters forum https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/crafters-roundtable-fishing-in-pantheon.221/ style="color: #b00000;"> .

    But I like the suggestion you made here by the chance of getting items other then fish. 

    I'm not in favour of fighting mobs, as when I'm fishing I'm not equipping myself with a sword and shield, I'll equip myself with harvesting gear to get the most out of it. 

    In fact one of the reasons I fish, is to get away from battle. 

    However, if I happen to catch some crafting materials or perhaps a quest in some shape or size (driftwood, metalscraps, bottle, shoe, skull?). Than that gives another incentive to go out there and fish.

    I have played games, where you could catch collections during fishing, and completing such collections gives you; status, coin, gear rewards. So, it has been done before.

    With this option in place, fishing is yet another way to explore the world and experience it in a different way. It could differentiate interplayer experience even more. It could also open up a window for the occasional solo-adventure content. Or even leading up to bigger content where multiple players are needed. So yeah, it has potential.

     


    This post was edited by Barin999 at November 29, 2018 12:14 AM PST
    • 647 posts
    November 29, 2018 12:10 AM PST

    Dashed said:

    Is it too much of a stretch to somehow roll the perception system into fishing? Maybe have the occasional fish yank me into the water and under the water (who knows what can happen then-otherwise inaccessible underwater grotto).

     

    That's a tricky one. Perhaps your perception skill could work with your skill as a harvester. So that when you walk near a body of water you can perceive a good fishing location, or you can become aware of a good location to find bait? So you're value of your harvesting skill will allow or prevent you from perceiving it. And when you have found that harvesting location, or you are harvesting, your skill goes up. It's more subtle then being dragged under the water. But in a way, the player is getting clues from the environment and they can choose to engage or leave it be. 

    What I assume though, is that they'll keep the perception system on par with the main quest streams, instead of putting it out all across Terminus. It just might be too much of a hassle or create too much chance for bugs to occur. 

    Still, it's a good suggestion. 


    This post was edited by Barin999 at November 29, 2018 12:12 AM PST
    • 1816 posts
    November 29, 2018 10:14 AM PST

    I hope Fishing doesn't end up as a complex minigame you have to invest much gear and dedication in.

    It was allways for me a way to relax and get away from any serious gaming to just chill out.

     

    If it ends up beeing like FFXIV, where you have skills, inventory shortage, weather, bait and gear to check, I will just turn away from it.

     

    I somehow, liked wow's fishing : Plain simple, with little items to equip (Hats, Poles, Baits, sometime boots or trousers) that only aimed to improve the single fishing skill. Probably very simple and boring for some, I agree.

    • 472 posts
    November 29, 2018 10:57 AM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I hope Fishing doesn't end up as a complex minigame you have to invest much gear and dedication in.

    It was allways for me a way to relax and get away from any serious gaming to just chill out.

    If it ends up beeing like FFXIV, where you have skills, inventory shortage, weather, bait and gear to check, I will just turn away from it.

    I somehow, liked wow's fishing : Plain simple, with little items to equip (Hats, Poles, Baits, sometime boots or trousers) that only aimed to improve the single fishing skill. Probably very simple and boring for some, I agree.

    Only gear I'm guessing you'll need is a fishing pole and bait. Maybe scaling skills in fishing can offer you a chance at better catches, which could, if the devs choose, include some of that stuff I posted above. All in all though, I expect fishing will be relatively simplistic.

    • 85 posts
    November 30, 2018 6:43 AM PST

    My responses in this font and color below!!

     

    Nephele said:

    It’s time for another Crafter’s Roundtable! For those who haven't seen these before, Crafter's Roundtable threads are something that the stafff at Pantheon Crafters puts together on a regular basis.  We ask questions that are intended to get the community talking, and help VR see what we'd like for crafting in Pantheon.  As part of our new format, to help get discussion started, we asked all of our staff writers here at Pantheon Crafters to weigh in on the topic ahead of time. Please feel free to agree with us, disagree with us, tell us we're all nuts, react with appropriate expressions of fright or horror to our ideas, or simply tell us what YOU think! :)

    The question:

    Many MMOs are known for their unique takes on fishing. Whether it's having to have the right kind of bait or having to reel the fish in the right way, fishing is often the one gathering skill that actually asks for some player skill. Not to mention it's a great way to take time out from killing things and just quietly enjoy the game and maybe some conversation. So when it comes to fishing, just how "deep" do you think it should go in Pantheon, and how do you think it should work and fit into the rest of the game?


    Here's what our staff had to say. Check out their opinions, and then post your own below!

    From Autherial:

    Honestly I really like how Black Desert does fishing. You can fish anywhere. Based on skill you can see seagulls circling a spot that means it is a hotspot and you have a better chance of catching rare or larger fish. Once you get a bite a bite meter shows up. It fills up like a power meter and you have to press space before the meter drops below a certain line. Then when the fish is hooked you have a mini game. A series of letters appear and you must press them in order before the timer runs out, rare or larger fish have a bigger code to input, it goes like this aabdfeddfasseed. This has been the most fun system of fishing I have played, I would like to see some variant of it in Pantheon.

     

    [CaffeineInjected]

    I like that black desert allows you to setup fishing to be done while you are not even at the computer. I feel that we all have busy lives as this is a nice mechanic as fishing is very commonly a repetitve borefest in most MMO's. Regarding the letter minigame I also think it's kind of fun and have found Black Desert to be my favorite fishing type system in a MMO. So I agree with Autherial.




    From Khaleesi:

    It would be nice to see a player driven or self driven (with less return) platform with some mini-game elements - but not too quirky.

    Let it be expansive, and wild. Beautiful if you are prepared and the sun is out and waves are splashing... or miserable, and wet, and cold, and frustrating, and hard if you are unprepared and starving in the cold environment wilderness, stuck in a shabby tent with a sock-thread line and bent metal hook with dirt for a lure.

    The devs have discussed built-in voice channels. You should be able to take a boat out with your guildie and sit with a bottle of water or beer, cast your line and with good bait wait for the bobber to drop.

    You should be able to go to a stream and hope to avoid the trees while casting the fly up river, hoping to attract the attention of one of the thousands of majestic jumping salmon on their annual run.

    Of course, it should always be better with a friend.


    From Tragic:

    For most people, fishing needs to be relevant in some capacity to impact the economy or for people to even do it. I like the idea of a mini-game where you can really get into the emersion. First, I would like to see crafted equipment that utilizes different materials to make poles, lures, hooks, etc. This will allow for a better catch during tournaments, larger stat foods, and so on. I like the idea of fishing in hostile waters to give the best opportunity for a “big catch.” Each fish should have RNG on size and rarity, thus allowing only the most skilled, well-equipped fisherman to bring in the best catch. This could be used for a leaderboard showing the largest fish from each species in the world/server to be displayed on a website. I love the idea of crafting and gathering leaderboards to give credit to those that play the full scope of the game, not just PvP or raids.

     

    [CaffeineInjected]

    Agree here with Tragic in that we need crafted equipment to enhance the fishing experience and give it more immersion. I agree with fishing in hostile waters. I like the RNG aspect as well but there should be a modifier based on your level of fishing skill that slightly increases RNG in your favor.


    From Trasak:

    First the most complicated fishing mini game in an MMO to date should be the baseline for how complicated and involved I would like to see all harvesting and crafting mini games.

    Second I still think that harvesting should be an exclusive profession choice to make it more valuable and the player economy be even more interdependent. I would split the harvesting professions into: Animal, Vegetable and Mineral. The animal harvester would be responsible for skinning, fishing and certain other animal products as well as the only way to get the tracking skill.

     

    [CaffeineInjected]

    I disagree here I feel fishing should be a common skill availabler to all. Make it time consuming and difficult but also rewarding.


    From Nephele:

    Fishing is the sort of thing I never really think about, but always end up doing in every MMO ever. When I sat down and thought about this I found myself asking why I actually did that. I mean, I'm not big into fishing by any stretch, and I'm usually not a food crafter so I typically don't really need the fish that I would catch all that much. But I'll still spend a bunch of time doing it.

    After thinking about it for a bit, I realized that part of why I like it so much is the complexity it can have compared to other types of gathering. In a lot of games, gathering wood or metal or skins is just a matter of finding the right thing and whacking it with your gathering tool. But not so, fishing. For fishing, you need the right bait. The right tackle. You need to be in the right place. And in some games, at the right time of day or in the right weather. And that's just to have a chance of getting the fish you want - if there's a minigame involved, you have to do that too.

    That complexity, that depth, is what I really enjoy about fishing - far more than the fishing itself, really. Now I'm not suggesting that there should be ore you can mine only at night during certain phases of the moon, but it seems to me that other forms of harvesting might benefit from being more robust, like fishing.

    [CaffeineInjected]

    I agree here. I think crafting better mining picks and finding very hard to find caves or mountain ledges that have ore should be considered. I also feel strength of the character should also have an effect in mining speed.



    As for fishing itself in Pantheon, I kind of hope the same things I do for all harvesting and crafting: I hope that equipment matters and that it can be crafted by player crafters. I hope that there's complexity and depth to it, and it's not just as simple as pressing a button or two. I hope that the fish you get from it are very useful and desirable. I hope that you're rewarded for traveling around and fishing in different places, and that you're not really encouraged just to stay in one spot grinding away at the same fish to advance. And finally, I hope it can enable social gameplay - I'm totally down with having stats on fish like size or weight that would allow players to put on fishing tournaments, or anything that helps the world feel like more of, you know, a world.

     

    [CaffeineInjected]

    Agree on the reward for traveling around to find fish. Like real life. Also crafting better fishing gear, lures, rods, etc.. should be there as well. It's all about making things matter. Tie them together with other systems. I have to find the right tree to cut down to use that type of wood, to make this type of fishing rod, that works best for this type of fish, which is only found at this time, in this climate, in this location.... you get the idea.


    Now let’s hear from all of you! Post and let us know how you think Pantheon should do fishing!


    This post was edited by Caffeineinjected at November 30, 2018 6:44 AM PST
    • 65 posts
    December 7, 2018 3:38 PM PST

    Well now, there is nothing I like better than sitting by a stream and fishing while talking to folks in open channels.

    Fishing is always an oddball profession pastime in game worlds, and I tend to like it to be as complex as possible. =P

    Definitely watching all the threads on this topic!

    Brasse

    • 1680 posts
    February 17, 2019 3:55 PM PST

    Regarding fishing; I hope much- simple- attention is given to fishing.I mean things that may be doable by a development team although I admit to no knowledge of such an undertaking.

    By "much" and "simple" I mean: every body of water has fish or some aquatic or semi-aquatic beasty. The smallest has at least 3 different kinds and maybe oceans with 10-15 different kinds, with various populations inbetween waterways/sizes. All that can be fished- along with appropriate flotsam & jetsam. If I am a poor fisherman then I will catch flotsam & jetsam/seaweed on my hooks more often. Additionally I would like to have these bodies of water show characteristics like, the pike run often on the left side of that lake at early afternoon, or Bass can be found near fallen logs, in other words good spots discoverable, with some AI built in if it gets overfished to promote stewardship- which would encourage players asking native players about the good fishing spots and where not to go because of overfishing. Additionally, different lures or bait needed for regional areas, not too crazy but maybe two choices per season like earthworms? or minnows? fly's or lures? and sub-level learned wisdom like : use a floating lure on this lake after a rain when its calm for fish X, or if the sun is shining, don't fish because the local legend is they can see you and wont bite but if its cloudy then they can't see you and bite more often, in area Y.

    • 85 posts
    February 17, 2019 5:18 PM PST

    I agree Manouk. I would like to see fish in all water if possible. There is a whole lot you can put into fishing. Black Desert did a lot with fishing and I really enjoyed it. 

    • 7 posts
    February 18, 2019 10:29 AM PST

    I also really like the part of BDO where a fish's value decreases over time, similar to the real world, and you can bypass this by drying your fish. 

    • 136 posts
    February 24, 2019 1:28 PM PST

    I like complexity (quality) in fishing as well as crafting/gathering systems, much more so than volume (quantity).  Give me hours spent looking for a crafting reagant any day over hours spent click,click,click .... endless clicking.  Just make sure inventory space reflects what is required to do these things, nothing worse than requiring 5 extra items to fish, 3 extra to gather, and 2 extra to access an area and only 12 inventory spaces.

     

    --- My opinions are not humble, they are just my opinions. ---

    • 1723 posts
    August 3, 2020 7:14 AM PDT

    With the recent forum and twitter discussion about fansites and my own post about how I use the fishing fansite in FFXIV, I thought it would be interesting to bring this discussion back and hear more people's opinions.

    So, bumping this back up.  How do folks think Fishing should work in Pantheon?

    • 3 posts
    August 6, 2020 5:18 PM PDT
    I am late to this post, but I hope not too late for my input I like the opportunity to fish out in the world via almost any system, however have fish farms been considered? Or any farm/orchard/husbandry system?

    It may be hard to implement I am not sure myself about coding it but if players are allowed to cultivate the land in a way even if each player who chooses to go the route of cultivation is given or allowed only a minute area. I think it will be fun. Certain areas in the game depending on landscape or area has a specific plot first come first serve kind of like a node but the player is allowed to cultivate it but will have a time limit on their “sole ownership” on the node past maturity which after its free for all to gather the matured items and then a cool down after it is gathered before the area can be cultivated again.

    Idk it is hard to explain it in detail myself As I am in a rush; but I hope maybe one of your staff gets or understands what I am trying to say To a point of being able to ponder it.
    • 1491 posts
    August 7, 2020 11:47 AM PDT

    Jaquarius said: ... Or any farm/orchard/husbandry system? It may be hard to implement I am not sure myself about coding it but if players are allowed to cultivate the land in a way even if each player who chooses to go the route of cultivation is given or allowed only a minute area. I think it will be fun. Certain areas in the game depending on landscape or area has a specific plot first come first serve kind of like a node but the player is allowed to cultivate it but will have a time limit on their “sole ownership” on the node past maturity which after its free for all to gather the matured items and then a cool down after it is gathered before the area can be cultivated again. ...

    Trivial to do in Unity, been possible/demonstrated/used in MMOs since (at least) 2007 with LOTRO farming.  I know exactly what you're describing, and it's an amazing system.

    I am a huge proponent of what you describe, Jaquarius, but it hasn't been mentioned as a public design goal by the developers of Pantheon from 2013 to 2020, so far.
    It seems like these specific types of 'living world' features are not currently part of the features, tenets or differences.  Crafting, Harvesting, and non-combat loops in general haven't seen as much attention, explanation, posts, podcasts, or videos when compared with combat, to date.