I wanted to start a discussion regarding the spells that slowed the attack speed of a target.
Let me premise this by saying, I am all for the inclusion of these spells, as I found them to be entertaining and beneficial. The issue I had with them though was what they became later in the game life cycle. They became so powerful and game content was soon developed around them, so much so, that nearly everything soon required their inclusion into the group make up.
Again, I do not want to see them removed, but I think pre-planning to understand the capping point of just how slow an NPC can be made to prevent the depency of certain clases so that content HAS to be slowed in order to succeed. Instead of continually increasing the slow down rate, the introduction of other additional benefits when slowing the targts, instead of just raising the slow down affect from 45% to 60%.For example, a late level version of slowing could be capped at 50% attack speed reduction, but now slows and has the added effect of over hasting 1% up to a stack of 3 if undamaged.
Now, this does not mean certain targets will not ever require the slow spell line, say a raid target may require slowing due to its attack design, but most targets should still be feasible to a certain degree by using other spells/skills that do not slow, but stabilize damage out put so that having multiple healers aren't required just to survive a single fight. For example, classes having abilities that cripple or lessen the damage output. Instead of slowing the attack speed, you are reduing the potential damage generated by a target or targets through stat reduction. Of course, regulating the combination of these spells will need to be considered as having both the ability to land slow and a cripple like spells on a target could trivilize the encounter. Perhap an either/or catergory for certain spells and skills.
I do hope certain melee abilities will exist to fulfill some of these roles. Although not quite as effective or long lasting as a spell, but able to fulfill the functionality on a repeating basis (applying through specific attacks) should likely exist. Again, they should be less effective compared to a class who specializes in debuffing, but in a pinch, this ability adds an alternative.
Thoughts? What am I not considering or missing in this thought process?
One thing to keep in mind is whether the game design gives most or all spells that players can get to some mobs to use against *us*.
Few things are more frustrating to players than spending a large part of a fight - maybe even all of it - unable to use their abilities because of being silenced, paralized, stunned, slowed, slept, mezzed, disarmed or the like. Especially when the game has immunities to keep one ability from being used on us repeatedly but doesn't have a global immunity against any disabling effect. In other words if it prevents us from being slept twice within 5 minutes but allows a sleep to be followed by a stun, to be followed by a mez, to be followed ....you get the point.
If any slow spell or ability is also given to mobs it shouldn't be so powerful as to basically mean death to a character that is a target.
My concern is with solo content where there aren't groupmates with spells that can free us of crowd control- I *know* the main focus of Pantheon is group content not solo or raids but all the more reason for some of us to try and discourage design features that inadvertantly cripple soloing or raiding since both of these will be important as well.
A lot (myself included) of us are looking to recapture that magic and awe that was EQ1.
What we have to remember is that a lot of things in the game were added after and/or evolved as we played the game.
If they put everything in from the beginning, then you have to play with that in mind always.
I would love to see some lines of spells, such as slow, used only sparingly in the first launch of the game.
You see, once slow is in the game, then everything will be slowed. No one will play without it, Just like crack. Once you have it, you won't play without it.
Seriously, how many casters in EQ (after say 2003) ever played with KEI? Ummmm none. Ever.
And how many tanks did their job with a haste and slow? Ummm. none. Ever.
I want things like that to be rare, situational and special, not just "peanut butter spread" all over everything because then it doesn't mean anything.
I think it's okay if a slow is powerful, but that powerful ability likely shouldn't be something with 100% uptime. I personally believe that a power of a spell needs to be balanced with its drawback, whether that be mana cost, cooldown, or some more creative opportunity cost such as damaging the caster, or having friendly fire. I'm definitely against the idea of spells that are very potent and 100% uptime.
This, of course, includes boring "cast and forget" buffs. I generally don't like them at all because they're just not fun or interesting. You just buff up before the encounter and it's just a useless time sink that doesn't really feel good. I'd be happy if all long duration buffs were removed from the game! Unless of course, there was some element of strategy involved, such as each buff also lowering another stat, or being mutually exclusive with other buffs.
On a slightly different note, as far as encounter design goes, I think it's okay if certain spells or certain mechanics are hyper powerful against a mob. If a potent slow really lowers the difficulty of a certain boss, then maybe the class that has access to that slow is almost mandatory. For that fight. Other fights, sure, that slow may be really potent, but bringing that particular class means you can't bring another certain class, and that's an opportunity cost (or at least, it should always be, if encounter design is balanced). Maybe other mobs just have such high damage on each attack that even slowing them doesn't help, because those individual hits are too heavy and there are other things going on in the fight. In that case, maybe that slowing class is outshone by a class with shields and damage mitigation, and that's okay, too.
I guess the point I'm making is that I'm okay with the idea of really potent slows. Provided that they aren't 100% uptime and have to be used properly, and provided that that slow isn't the be-all-end-all of every fight.
I do not want to fall into the common fucntionality many of the current games have where you are constantly having to rebuff a MoB every few seconds though. Me personally.
It bacame so annoying having to constantly make sure certain buffs were always active, it really became bothersome. One of the things I like about EQ was once I managed to get something to stick (it was an effort to succeed with resistances), it was nice to be able to switch my focus on other actions for awhile. You could make slow and other debuffs similarly shorter in duration, but you would then need to balance cost to apply, otherwise the debuffer is just OOM.
"On a slightly different note, as far as encounter design goes, I think it's okay if certain spells or certain mechanics are hyper powerful against a mob. If a potent slow really lowers the difficulty of a certain boss, then maybe the class that has access to that slow is almost mandatory. For that fight. Other fights, sure, that slow may be really potent, but bringing that particular class means you can't bring another certain class, and that's an opportunity cost (or at least, it should always be, if encounter design is balanced). Maybe other mobs just have such high damage on each attack that even slowing them doesn't help, because those individual hits are too heavy and there are other things going on in the fight. In that case, maybe that slowing class is outshone by a class with shields and damage mitigation, and that's okay, too."
I definately agree on this viewpoint. I think encounters should vary in where a class may shine. A class may excel in what they bring to the table in delaing with a target, but they should never be useless as well. If a target is immune and barely affected by by a slow, it is important that, let's say a Shaman in this situation, brings other qualities that make them desirable for the group. Cannot be slowed, but very vulnerable to curses.
Temmi said:On a slightly different note, as far as encounter design goes, I think it's okay if certain spells or certain mechanics are hyper powerful against a mob. If a potent slow really lowers the difficulty of a certain boss, then maybe the class that has access to that slow is almost mandatory. For that fight. Other fights, sure, that slow may be really potent, but bringing that particular class means you can't bring another certain class, and that's an opportunity cost (or at least, it should always be, if encounter design is balanced). Maybe other mobs just have such high damage on each attack that even slowing them doesn't help, because those individual hits are too heavy and there are other things going on in the fight. In that case, maybe that slowing class is outshone by a class with shields and damage mitigation, and that's okay, too.
I agree with this too, but with the caveat that this applies to like a multi group or raid target. If a ragular group target I would like to see the group tactically decide what can be done to make up for the lack of the particular slow form using the group capabilities at hand. If a shammy is not available to slow but another class with a half slow is there, but you have a high dps class like a rogue then maybe that combination can work. Mob hits more often but dies faster. It may mean more down time to bind wounds and a more cautios approach, but doable.
Temmi said:I think it's okay if a slow is powerful, but that powerful ability likely shouldn't be something with 100% uptime. I personally believe that a power of a spell needs to be balanced with its drawback, whether that be mana cost, cooldown, or some more creative opportunity cost such as damaging the caster, or having friendly fire. I'm definitely against the idea of spells that are very potent and 100% uptime.
Or, the spell can have a higher chance of being resisted without first having debuff the various resists of the target. While Slow was a great spell in EQ1, you first really needed to precede it with Malo and even then, against quite a few raid bosses, it took multiple casts to get it to land. Then you had the issue of gate generation. Slow generated a lot of hate and when you had to make multiple attempts you could easily find yourself dead.
This is where NPCs really need to start playing to their class and not just defaulting to melee. All NPC casters should never run into melee range. Ever. If they avoid melee range then a melee slow is irrelevant. We would need a slow for spells.
Vandraad is correct: Play to their class... bingo! In other games bards had a wimpy slow, but a smart bard should be able to attempt charming an NPC shammie and have it whammie the other mobs with debuffs and slows. Even better, have an NPC bard do the same to a PC shaman. Yowzer! That would be ground breaking AI. I don’t expect it in PRotF at release, but hopefully they develop the framework now for adding it eventually.
Roxxers said:I do not want to fall into the common fucntionality many of the current games have where you are constantly having to rebuff a MoB every few seconds though. Me personally.
It became so annoying having to constantly make sure certain buffs were always active, it really became bothersome. One of the things I like about EQ was once I managed to get something to stick (it was an effort to succeed with resistances), it was nice to be able to switch my focus on other actions for awhile. You could make slow and other debuffs similarly shorter in duration, but you would then need to balance cost to apply, otherwise the debuffer is just OOM.
Amen. I'm afraid we're going to be disappointed, however.
Roxxers said:I do not want to fall into the common fucntionality many of the current games have where you are constantly having to rebuff a MoB every few seconds though. Me personally.
It bacame so annoying having to constantly make sure certain buffs were always active, it really became bothersome. One of the things I like about EQ was once I managed to get something to stick (it was an effort to succeed with resistances), it was nice to be able to switch my focus on other actions for awhile. You could make slow and other debuffs similarly shorter in duration, but you would then need to balance cost to apply, otherwise the debuffer is just OOM.
There is quite a bit if leeway between debuffing "every few seconds" and casting a 7.5 min slow.
Most raid fights dont last longer than 7.5 minutes, you shouldnt be able to cast 1 spell and then never have to worry about it again.
Given the way resistances worked in EQ with debuffs I wouldn't want to see the need to debuff every 30 seconds or even 1 mins. But a 7.5 min debuff is extremely overpowered imo.
Let us not forget that these spells and abilities will most likely have a much shorter duration than we are used to. As well as a longer than duration cooldown unless the class is proficient at casting time delay spells(shaman)
My hope is that spells are resisted less due to the need to cast them more often. I empathize with those that used to go OOM just trying to slow one mob. Been there on my raid shammy. And please don't allow belly caster mobs. I don't want to HAVE to be in a 2 pixel location just to land a spell - that was a horrible mechanic that should have been patched. If you are close enough to be hit by their spell then they can be hit by ours.