Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Class codependency

    • 72 posts
    August 8, 2018 6:11 PM PDT

     

    I love the cooperation between summoner and chanter, is there going to be more of this necessity between various classes? If so what are some ideas?

     

    • 158 posts
    August 8, 2018 6:36 PM PDT

    I like the idea of classes interacting in special ways, but not the epic ability of one class being reletively useless without another class. I enjoyed most of the summoner reveal except for those two abilities that make the enchanter cooler and not the summoner.

    • 1202 posts
    August 8, 2018 6:39 PM PDT

     

    I'm dubious to the summoner enchanter thing but time will tell. If that ability is that good then enchanters and summoner will be a boon to each other vs charming normally.

    I'm open to ideas.

    Oh cool idea, extra xp% goes to the summoner who summoned the thing, hows that for a bonus.

     


    This post was edited by Aich at August 9, 2018 8:03 AM PDT
    • 773 posts
    August 8, 2018 6:56 PM PDT
    I feel as tho the monster summoning and dire charm is a solution to finding a quality DPS mob for the group when there are no available charmable mobs.
    • 1762 posts
    August 8, 2018 7:19 PM PDT

    The Druid and Shaman have the wet status synergy. 

    • 3 posts
    August 10, 2018 12:44 AM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    I like the idea of classes interacting in special ways, but not the epic ability of one class being reletively useless without another class. I enjoyed most of the summoner reveal except for those two abilities that make the enchanter cooler and not the summoner.

    I too enjoy the notion of classes interacting, although it seems that the Summon Creature and epic ability Summon Behemoth could do more for the Summoner interaction/synergy wise. From the sounds of it, the Summoner brings the creature forth and the Enchanter then takes control of it from there on. Is that it for the Summoner? The Summoner then plants his rear on the ground to med back up while the Enchanter gets to play with the new wrecking ball?

    Yes it benefits the group as a whole with the extra DPS and thus xp, however I wouldn't mind seeing some type of further participation or benefit for the Summoner. Aich's idea of an xp bonus going to the Summoner is a step in the right direction. I would love to see some ideas that would help the summoned creature/behemoth be more beneficial or tied to the Summoner as well. The Summoner will likely be busy controlling his own pets after the creature/behemoth is pulled forth so I don't imagine something too complicated. The Summoner's pets perhaps then recieve a slight haste or damage bonus growing in size feeding off the Behemoth's furious energy while the Behemoth is active.


    This post was edited by greenfoothops at August 10, 2018 12:46 AM PDT
    • 128 posts
    August 10, 2018 1:44 AM PDT

    Do we know yet if every character will have all the Epic abilities listed, or is it more like a specialization? For example, a summoner would have to choose Summon Behemoth over say, Arcamental Mastery or Arcamental Command? If it were a matter of choice, then I feel like having such harsh interdependency on epic abilities might not be so bad, since you could simply choose something else if you didn't like it.

    • 673 posts
    August 10, 2018 3:06 AM PDT

    My concern with the combo of enchanter and summoner, is mainly with one player playing from 2 accounts. With a high lvl mob charmed, with enchanter buffs and damage shield buff from summoner. This player might be able to do way to much on he's own. He can traverse content and be a happy camper all day, with no need of help from others. 

    My personal opinion about boxing is that it should be a reson to be perma banned. 

    If 2 players in a full grp, decide to charm the behemoth and utilise this for the greater good of the grp, then I'm fine. I can just imagine how over powered it can be like we saw back in eq, that situation should never happen again to be honest. 


    This post was edited by BamBam at August 10, 2018 3:54 AM PDT
    • 85 posts
    August 10, 2018 3:42 AM PDT

    How about groups without a summoner but an enchanter just ask a summoner to cast that behemoth? Or multiple enchanters and one summoner, especially in a raid? 

    Duoing is still pretty risky, depending on the resists and dmg output of the behemoth. Without a real healer those squishy casters might not survive an early charmbreak.

     

    • 673 posts
    August 10, 2018 3:51 AM PDT

    @Matrulak

    Ye that could actually be game breaking, 6 or 5 Enchanters and a healer. All with permanent pets summoned... It might take time, but once you get it going it will never stop...

    Maybe Summoned pets like the Behemoth should have like 50% reduced stats compared to a regular mob? Same with normal charmed mob, please reduce the mob stats by a lot so we wont see gamebreaking numbers again.

    Back in eq the mobs was hitting as hard as they did normaly. With buffs they did a LOT more damage and was way more tanky than any player would be. Please dont repeat this in Pantheon, there must be a middle way, where charmed mobs are usefull/fun/cool/wanted, but balanced to a point where its not looked uppon as over powered. 

    I know we wont see the same class balance in Pantheon, as we see in other mmos. Im fine with that, I like it! But each class should be within a certan margin of one another, so all can preform decently well and wont be locked out from raids and grps. 


    This post was edited by BamBam at August 10, 2018 3:58 AM PDT
    • 372 posts
    August 10, 2018 4:53 AM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    I like the idea of classes interacting in special ways, but not the epic ability of one class being reletively useless without another class. I enjoyed most of the summoner reveal except for those two abilities that make the enchanter cooler and not the summoner.

     

    I think there's some confusion about what "epic ability" means.  VR isn't using the term to mean your most powerful, impactful skill.  Epic ability means that it's something you don't get just by leveling up.  You will have to go out into the world and discover how to learn the ability.  Also, it's not the epic ability of summoners.  There are 3 epic abiliteis listed, and there may be more that we haven't even seen...

    Historically the most stable and effective bindings have been to the elements of Earth, Water, Fire and Wind, though experimentation is ongoing.

    hint, hint...

     

    Also, keep in mind that it's only possible to achieve this power if the summoner has learned the skill.  And it's a good chance that most summoners won't even have the skill.  It could be a long, difficult process to learn how to summon a behemoth.  Sure, the enchanter might ultimately take control of the behemoth, but I don't think that detracts from the awesomeness of what the summoner is doing.


    This post was edited by zoltar at August 10, 2018 4:53 AM PDT
    • 451 posts
    August 10, 2018 5:22 AM PDT

    Keno Monster said:

    The Druid and Shaman have the wet status synergy. 

    Key word being synergy , Shaman and Druids can still use the spells without one another . 

    Does no good to cast Behemoth without a enchanter . 

    • 331 posts
    August 10, 2018 8:32 AM PDT

    To the summoners complaining about the behemoth spell benefitting the enchanter, please go elsewhere for your clarity and cast-speed buffs, which don’t help the enchanter who casts them. 

    Less sarcastically, the point is you should consider class synergies by looking at the full spectrum of class abilities, not by cherry-picking a single spell. 


    This post was edited by Gnog at August 10, 2018 8:34 AM PDT
    • 673 posts
    August 10, 2018 8:49 AM PDT

    @Gnog Enchanters can buff themself with hast and clerity so that not rly the same, as having an Epic ability only usefull under certain very limited circumstances. 
    I am all for calss synergies and teamplay, i just am against this specific spell, due to the resons i explained. :)

    • 331 posts
    August 10, 2018 8:59 AM PDT

    Well then why aren’t clarity and spell-haste self-only abilities? Making those spells castable on other characters doesn’t help the enchanter at all. Again the point remains that you can’t view abilities in isolation when you’re trying to evaluate class synergies. 

    I am going to burst your bubble here. There will be boxing in Pantheon. But it will not be as effective as boxing was in EQ because each class will require more active gameplay than in EQ. 

    Also I wouldn’t worry too much about enchanter/summoner boxes taking over the world. The devs are aware of how OP charm was in early EQ and I’m sure the behemoth spell will be balanced during the development process. 

    • 673 posts
    August 10, 2018 9:10 AM PDT
    Lol not when it's an epic ability. These will be very limited to each class. And by making one of these epic abilities, only usefull under very limited circumstances I feel it is a waste and that's all.

    • 451 posts
    August 10, 2018 9:34 AM PDT

    Gnog said:

    To the summoners complaining about the behemoth spell benefitting the enchanter, please go elsewhere for your clarity and cast-speed buffs, which don’t help the enchanter who casts them. 

    Less sarcastically, the point is you should consider class synergies by looking at the full spectrum of class abilities, not by cherry-picking a single spell. 

     

    First off your clarity does not require another player to cast ! you can still use it right ? its usable even without a summoner ! as are all your spells same with every class listed .....

    Summoning a Behemoth is not usable by anyone but the Enchanter , the fact we cant use it should say something . Im all for synergy im all for working together to benifit the whole . 

    In fact seldom if ever do i even say something negative about anything to do with anything pertaining to PROTF . This is something i disagree with strongly . 

    I think the team has done a outstanding job not only with classes/races / game itself . ( in fact they deserve Koodos ) . high five Team :):):) 

    But to say go elsewhere for clarity ???   Summoners dont need your clarity we have a way to regain it :P . 

    I also mention a far better way to synergize ( on summoner page )  then us just casting a mob thats only usable if you have a Enchanter with dire enchant . 

    Please show me anywhere on any class info that says any class cannot use thier spell unless suchnsuch class is there ????? 

    Non unless your reading the summoner page :) .

     


    This post was edited by Shea at August 10, 2018 9:40 AM PDT
    • 3405 posts
    August 10, 2018 9:43 AM PDT

    Shea said:

    Please show me anywhere on any class info that says any class cannot use thier spell unless suchnsuch class is there ????? 

    Warriors cannot use Wall of Shields unless another warrior is present.  Personally, I am a huge fan of the enchanter/summoner synergy.  We need more stuff like this.  It's magic being hand-woven into the world.  Knowing that VR is willing to think outside the box and implement stuff like this makes me extremely happy and confident about this game.  That isn't to say that I wasn't already ... but these kind of risks are only taken by visionaries.  I'm not interested in regurgitated emulator play.  Pantheon is evolving the genre ... let's see how that evolution feels in testing before writing things off.  I am absolutely thrilled about what I have seen in the recent class reveals.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at August 10, 2018 9:46 AM PDT
    • 451 posts
    August 10, 2018 9:44 AM PDT

    You got me :):) i did not think to look at the melee class :( . Still i dont think its great idea . 


    This post was edited by Shea at August 10, 2018 9:45 AM PDT
    • 1885 posts
    August 10, 2018 9:52 AM PDT

    BamBam said: Lol not when it's an epic ability. These will be very limited to each class. And by making one of these epic abilities, only usefull under very limited circumstances I feel it is a waste and that's all.

    Agreed- and my impresssion is this is how gnomes battle. Regarding the summon/charm trick; there are no tanks in the gnomish culture so they have to figure out something- its like the summoner and enchanter finish each others sentences. If they explore far enough and make first contact with another race- they wont need this trick and instead can learn a new way to  battle and as I see it play a new game since those spells wont be used as much. However I can also see much later in levels maybe years later IRL, in a multi-group situation where a summoner and enchanter gnome have never met  each are in seperate groups and when things get tough like tanks and rangers dieing they can revert to their old racial tricks, having never met but sharing the same culture and gnowing (intentional) the summoner can summon and the chanter can charm- to get out of this fix. It may not be as usefull in later groups, a proper melee class(like monk, ranger, War, pally, Direlord) may negate the need for this except in dire or multi group circumstances.

    • 673 posts
    August 10, 2018 9:55 AM PDT
    Wall of Shields sounds very cool indeed, maybe it's an epic ability to. Warriors don't have epic category applied yet.

    If behemoth ability was a regular ability and not a epic ability. I'd be way more happy. I guess we don't know how many epic abilities one can have, maybe all abilities can achieve the epic state who knows.
    • 1885 posts
    August 10, 2018 9:59 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Shea said:

    Please show me anywhere on any class info that says any class cannot use thier spell unless suchnsuch class is there ????? 

    Warriors cannot use Wall of Shields unless another warrior is present.  Personally, I am a huge fan of the enchanter/summoner synergy.  We need more stuff like this.  It's magic being hand-woven into the world.  Knowing that VR is willing to think outside the box and implement stuff like this makes me extremely happy and confident about this game.  That isn't to say that I wasn't already ... but these kind of risks are only taken by visionaries.  I'm not interested in regurgitated emulator play.  Pantheon is evolving the genre ... let's see how that evolution feels in testing before writing things off.  I am absolutely thrilled about what I have seen in the recent class reveals.

    yes and this is how Warrior culture fights- like the movie "300" they had no healers! but instead the Spartans had to lock shields. Put someone with a spear (they are in game!) in the mix and maybe a multi-group leader can feel pleasantly inspired in using those tactics just visually learned through popular culture or remembered from history. That seems cool to me. Adds  level of gameplay they will have to use when younger and  then not so much as they get friendly with other classes, but could be usefull later in a multigroup situation for harder battles.

    • 372 posts
    August 10, 2018 10:08 AM PDT

    BamBam said: Lol not when it's an epic ability. These will be very limited to each class. And by making one of these epic abilities, only usefull under very limited circumstances I feel it is a waste and that's all.

     

    There is no fixed limit on epic abilities, and some might be much more invovled than others.  Furthermore summoners already have 3 listed, which seems like more than the average class.  And the class description clearly hits at additional epic abilities revolving around another type of elemental or summon.  

    I think we should give VR the benefit of the doubt that they will make each class rewarding in terms of the epic ability/quests available, and not immediatly jump to conclusions about who is getting the short end of the stick.


    This post was edited by zoltar at August 10, 2018 10:09 AM PDT
    • 673 posts
    August 10, 2018 10:33 AM PDT
    @Zoltan if there "no limit" then I agree. :)

    Its not that I don't believe VR are doing what they feel is best.

    But feel our job as a community is to ask questions, for the greater good of the game. And maybe in some rare cases, we actually can benefit the game.
    • 793 posts
    August 10, 2018 10:36 AM PDT

    Speaking of Epic abilities...after looking at all the epic abilities...well most of them...druids seem to have the least fun looking one.