Parascol said:I would like the Paladin to be able to main tank or main heal anything if set up properly for either. I wouldn't want a jack of all trades class that isn't good at any one thing.
The CC ability intrigues me, but again, I am curious how useful it will be compared to say, an enchanter. One thing I don't want to see is a class that's not really great at anything, because that's what the EQ Paladin was and it was really tough to find a group.
All classes have defined roles. There are 4 roles in this game. Tank, Healer, DPS and Crowd Control. Each class does offer some utility, but none can do more than 1 main role. This is a design decision and there are good reasons behind it
My biggest concern with Paladin isn't the spells it has as I think it has a good utility belt of many really useful spells for all kinds of different situations. My concern lies in the fact that if they keep the 12 spell limit Paladins will not have enough space to truly make use of any of it. From my what I have seen you are going to need at least 5 spells to tank, 2 defenesive cooldowns, and 3 heals that only leaves 2 spaces for anything else. You could switch out the heals for charisma base skills if your a charisma paladin but those are going to be extremely situational so anyone who would main charisma is going to be a useless paladin. So that really only leaves you with 2 spots for god knows how many abilties that you might want to use and one of those you would probably want to have the combat res in because it can save the day when needed.
So you can see my point of its not what abilities we have but if we are even going to be able to use them if we can only have 12 spaces for spells. I am hoping they either increase the amount of slots to something like 16 or they make certain abilities not tied to the hot bar like maybe the combat res.
That's a good point Damacon, but it's just going to allow the cream to rise to the top. Part of being a good player is going to be situational awareness and knowing which spells to have keyed up at any given time. It seems to me that if you are tanking, that's going to lean more towards specific abilities. If you're the off tank, you can probably shift your ability selection more towards support and/or heals.
I mean, as a primary tank, you're going to probably build around crit damage for aggro purposes. So, I'm planning on a two handed weapon and keeping any ability that stuns or can stun on my bar. My aggro generator is going to be my auto crits on stunned mobs from "Fervant Strike (2s CD)" at a massive hate multiply rate. That means "Pommel and Cross", "Lightguard", and "Edict of Celestial Authority (60s CD)" are always on my bar for the stuns. And I'm going to hopefully have a Monk in my group as well for "Blast of Chakra". Single target taunt "Incite (8s CD)", and AoE taunt "Wrathful Aegis (20s CD)" are also on the bar for obvious reasons. I anticipate using "Hymn of Justice" almost exclusively while tanking to keep my wrath generation high. I think that's more like a stance and won't require a slot, but if it does, I'll use it. My primary pull spell/opener will be "Lance of the Lightful (20s CD)", a ranged wrath generator to start the rotation rolling. I'm hoping to avoid having "Oathflame (2s CD)" on the bar, I'm thinking my wrath generation setup won't need it, and it seems weak. So, at this point, I believe this is likely to be 7 slots taken up for primary tanking duties, all focused around hate generation, holding aggro, and maximizing my DPS.
That leaves 5 slots, and if I want to use some of my most powerful abilities, I need some abilities that generate Reckoning Points. *If* I'm fighting Undead, my crits will generate them on their own (Lightful Avenger, passive ability), and I'll be good to go. Obviously, I want to be fighting Undead as much as possible. However, in the event I'm not, I need some Reckoning Points. "Arcing Light (8s CD)" is the quickest way to generate RPs, so it's on the bar. The fact that it's an instant self heal is handy as well. I'll use it every time it's up until I'm sitting at 3 RPs, which should take 24 seconds or so.
I now have four slots left. But now we can pick and choose some of our strongest abilities as needed for the situation. I'm always going to have "Golden Strike (20s CD)" on the bar, which consumes 2 RPs but gives me 3 seconds of invulnerability plus heals 24% of my health. It's basically an Oh Crap heal to buy the healer some time and with a short cool down to boot. Seems pretty reasonable that I can do my normal rotation fitting in Arcing Light so that I have access to Golden Strike every 20 seconds as needed. I'll probably keep "Atone" on the bar just in case, but there will be certain scenarios that it just won't be needed. Atone also consumes 2 RPs.
At this point I have two slots left, three if I'm not using Atone. One of those slots will definitely be "Glory and Honor (120s CD)" which allows me to heal my defensive target for a full 60 seconds through my damage, and with an upgraded hymn ability, I can also heal myself through my damage at the same time. That's pretty badass, especially if you are chaining crits off stuns with a big two hander.
So, now I have either one or two slots open, and there is nothing pressing I really need. I can tailor that last ability (abilities) to my specific play session encounter. Most often it will probably be one or two of my CC abilities (Glorified Self, Miraculous Shimmer, Brilliant Aegis, or Fiery Aegis).
If I'm the primary off tank or even back up heals, my bar is going to look vastly different with more support and heal type selections. I feel 12 slots gives us a nice blend of strategy and diversity though. I don't think it's too limiting. I am a little curious about not allowing us to try and med during encounters where we can try and swap out spell options before we get smacked. I thought that was a fun part of EQ1.
Yep that is pretty much how I saw it as well but the only problem is it starts to take the hybrid out of the hybrid class if you have to focus on any certain aspect of it. As an off tank you might be able to throw in more heals ect but if the main tank dies and you don't have your tank abilities you are just kind of useless. Not to mention the probably 5-10 skills we don't even know about and if they are absolutly needed. Its doable with the 12 slots but I think for a class like the paladin its kind of damaging to the role they are supposed to be. I much rather see them move a few abilities off the hot bar or give us just a few extra slots so we can actually be a hybrid the whole time and not just on very rare occasions haha. Nothing is set in stone and they have already stated that the 12 slots might not be enough, but I just wanted to state it as a concern cause I believe it is a valid one. As the post said with 12 slots I think you will be taking the utility out of Paladin and at that point you would probably just be better off with one of the other two classes.
P.S.
Its not just Atone you are probably going to want to have Chastening Blow/ Hallowed Assault the ones that strip the enemies of buffs on your bar at all times because it is a skill you 100% want to have when you need it. Same with Evensong why give the paladin a skill that affects all of your healing skills if you are only going to use it in those rare moments you can afford to have heals on your bar.
Well there are no hybrid classes in the game. This 12 ability limit isn't an issue for just paladin, just about every class is going to have the same difficult decision making based on the group they are currently in, their role within that group, and the mobs being fought.
Iksar said:Well there are no hybrid classes in the game. This 12 ability limit isn't an issue for just paladin, just about every class is going to have the same difficult decision making based on the group they are currently in, their role within that group, and the mobs being fought.
A Paladin is a hybrid its a warrior and healer combined there is no other way to look at it haha. If you take out one or the other it just becomes the other class, but if your just talking about classes filling multiple roles you are correct. A Paladin will not be a pure healer and should never be a pure healer, but with the skill limit Paladins might just end up being a crappy version of other classes. If you don't have room to put heals on your bar you are just going to be a crappy warrior and if you put to many on you are going to be a useless healer who can't tank. Get what I am saying?
I do agree that other classes are going to have the same problems but some a lot more than others and Paladin being one of the worst but thats if they stick to the 12 skill limit. The other two tanks from what I have seen don't have many choices and the choices they do have are do I want to take this buff/debuff or that buff/debuff. Where as Paladins have to many fricken skills, most of them being very situational and on very long cooldowns. It can work but you will already have to know everything thats going to happen before you can make full use of everything. If they don't make it super quick to switch skills and you don't know everything about a zone it would just make sense to use the other tanks who have everything they need in one build. There are other classes who looked like they might suffer a bit from this but not quite as bad like Rogue and Ranger were two that I noticed had a bunch of utility skills that they might never have room to use them. But the thing about them is if they make an out of combat bar that would solve their problems almost completely.
Damacon said:Iksar said:Well there are no hybrid classes in the game. This 12 ability limit isn't an issue for just paladin, just about every class is going to have the same difficult decision making based on the group they are currently in, their role within that group, and the mobs being fought.
A Paladin is a hybrid its a warrior and healer combined there is no other way to look at it haha. If you take out one or the other it just becomes the other class, but if your just talking about classes filling multiple roles you are correct. A Paladin will not be a pure healer and should never be a pure healer, but with the skill limit Paladins might just end up being a crappy version of other classes. If you don't have room to put heals on your bar you are just going to be a crappy warrior and if you put to many on you are going to be a useless healer who can't tank. Get what I am saying?
I do agree that other classes are going to have the same problems but some a lot more than others and Paladin being one of the worst but thats if they stick to the 12 skill limit. The other two tanks from what I have seen don't have many choices and the choices they do have are do I want to take this buff/debuff or that buff/debuff. Where as Paladins have to many fricken skills, most of them being very situational and on very long cooldowns. It can work but you will already have to know everything thats going to happen before you can make full use of everything. If they don't make it super quick to switch skills and you don't know everything about a zone it would just make sense to use the other tanks who have everything they need in one build. There are other classes who looked like they might suffer a bit from this but not quite as bad like Rogue and Ranger were two that I noticed had a bunch of utility skills that they might never have room to use them. But the thing about them is if they make an out of combat bar that would solve their problems almost completely.
I mean by that logic most of the classes are hybrids, but to me hybrid was always a class that was a mixture of two (or more) other classes with shared skills/abilities.
But I guess it's a matter of opinion at this point. I look at the paladin list and I don't see much of an issue in terms of figuring out what abilities to load up for whatever the group needs you for.
Iksar said:I mean by that logic most of the classes are hybrids, but to me hybrid was always a class that was a mixture of two (or more) other classes with shared skills/abilities.
But I guess it's a matter of opinion at this point. I look at the paladin list and I don't see much of an issue in terms of figuring out what abilities to load up for whatever the group needs you for.
I guess in Everquest that was the defenition of a hybrid but even then as the game progressed they moved away from that hybrids got more and more original skills. I took it more on the literal note in this game of the lore says the Paladin was once a Cleric who took up the blade becoming a holy warrior pretty much haha.
You will always be a tank regardless of what the group needs and if you don't your tank abilties equiped you are going to be pretty useless. Even if you are the "offtank" if the main tank dies you are going to need to be the tank so if you don't have your tank abilities equiped your going to be screwed.
So with that in mind you have 7-8 tank skills you will absolutly have to equip to be able to tank well so that only leave 4 or 5 skill slots left. Which then brings you to the choice of wanting to bring your heals or crowd control skills. In most cases your crowd control skills are going to be useless compared to other classes but they would be nice to have but you don't have room so you take 3 of your heal skills only leaving you with 1 or 2 skills to play with. Now you are probably going to want to bring Atone because if someone dies and you don't have probably the best combat res in the game if not second best you are an idiot but its very situational. If you have a extra spot the smartest idea would be evensong if you brought all your heals plus atone since it makes them more powerful. So thats it you don't have room for your debuff skill,your cleanse skill for yourself,no crowd control to help people in the few cases it might be needed,no room for the cool blind skill and no room for the pull/stun a fleeing enemy skill. Not to mention the 5-10 abilties we don't even know about so as I said in previous post I would just be happy with 2-4 more slots so I can actually bring some of my extra utility skills while holding on to skills I need to do my role which is tank. I don't think anyone would complain if they added 2-4 more slots to work with and I can almost guarantee that once we find the other skills we don't know about.
Damacon said:You will always be a tank regardless of what the group needs and if you don't your tank abilties equiped you are going to be pretty useless. Even if you are the "offtank" if the main tank dies you are going to need to be the tank so if you don't have your tank abilities equiped your going to be screwed.
So with that in mind you have 7-8 tank skills you will absolutly have to equip to be able to tank well so that only leave 4 or 5 skill slots left. Which then brings you to the choice of wanting to bring your heals or crowd control skills. In most cases your crowd control skills are going to be useless compared to other classes but they would be nice to have but you don't have room so you take 3 of your heal skills only leaving you with 1 or 2 skills to play with. Now you are probably going to want to bring Atone because if someone dies and you don't have probably the best combat res in the game if not second best you are an idiot but its very situational. If you have a extra spot the smartest idea would be evensong if you brought all your heals plus atone since it makes them more powerful. So thats it you don't have room for your debuff skill,your cleanse skill for yourself,no crowd control to help people in the few cases it might be needed,no room for the cool blind skill and no room for the pull/stun a fleeing enemy skill. Not to mention the 5-10 abilties we don't even know about so as I said in previous post I would just be happy with 2-4 more slots so I can actually bring some of my extra utility skills while holding on to skills I need to do my role which is tank. I don't think anyone would complain if they added 2-4 more slots to work with and I can almost guarantee that once we find the other skills we don't know about.
Ehhhh I think that is a bit off base. If you are not the main tank in a group setting then you almost surely don't need to have tank specific abilities on your hotbar because if not tanking then you are most likely filling what would otherwise be a DPS slot in the group comp, and aside from monk the DPS classes can't tank either. While likely not the ideal candidate in many cases, the strength a paladin brings to the group when not tanking is likely okayish damage, help with healing (saving the healers more mana so the group can run longer), stuns, and if the main tank does eat dirt then you still have pretty good off-tank even without the mitigation active abilities.
Paladin aren't going to fold like paper just because they don't have their tank abilities loaded up, they still have plate/high AC and I imagine they could whip their shield out and tank half decently for a short period of time in an "off-tank" capacity... otherwise the group was going to die anyway. But really, with your support abilities and extra heals that tank in the group should NOT die or, again, the group was doomed to begin with.
If I were a paladin in a group but not the tank I'd likely slot 2 tank skills (taunt as one for sure), 2-3 heals, the other 7-8 skills as damage/stuns/support.
The idea is making choices matter though, you need to know your group and the enemies. Sometimes you will have lots of undead specific abilities loaded, sometimes you will encounter enemies that run often so you get to use that skill, other times the cleanse will be important. The hotbar isn't meant to be a swiss army knife to cover all the bases plus a few rotating situationals.
Iksar said:Ehhhh I think that is a bit off base. If you are not the main tank in a group setting then you almost surely don't need to have tank specific abilities on your hotbar because if not tanking then you are most likely filling what would otherwise be a DPS slot in the group comp, and aside from monk the DPS classes can't tank either. While likely not the ideal candidate in many cases, the strength a paladin brings to the group when not tanking is likely okayish damage, help with healing (saving the healers more mana so the group can run longer), stuns, and if the main tank does eat dirt then you still have pretty good off-tank even without the mitigation active abilities.
Paladin aren't going to fold like paper just because they don't have their tank abilities loaded up, they still have plate/high AC and I imagine they could whip their shield out and tank half decently for a short period of time in an "off-tank" capacity... otherwise the group was going to die anyway. But really, with your support abilities and extra heals that tank in the group should NOT die or, again, the group was doomed to begin with.
If I were a paladin in a group but not the tank I'd likely slot 2 tank skills (taunt as one for sure), 2-3 heals, the other 7-8 skills as damage/stuns/support.
The idea is making choices matter though, you need to know your group and the enemies. Sometimes you will have lots of undead specific abilities loaded, sometimes you will encounter enemies that run often so you get to use that skill, other times the cleanse will be important. The hotbar isn't meant to be a swiss army knife to cover all the bases plus a few rotating situationals.
Its doable just not ideal and you are correct most of the skills you might be able to fit in if you know your going to need them. But that is the key you have to know you are going to need them and you would probably be sacrificing skills that you might really need like combat res,heals, or tank skills.
I was thinking more of the offtank for a raid, but yeah for a group if for some reason someone would invite you to fill a slot it might work. Paladin probably would be the best choice out of the three tanks to assist the main tank as you have lots of support. You don't really have any dps skills that aren't also used in the tanking process except the AE skill that is a self cleanse, so your skill line up really wouldn't be all that different unless you wanted to drop your defensive cooldowns. I personally would probably never invite a Paladin as anything except a tank unless I had no other choice. But I think you are right in that rare one percent chance that you get invited to a group as not a tank you might get to use some of your other skills that you normally don't get use that are only needed for very specific situations. So I am glad we solved that Paladin fixed!
P.S.
I still think they need at least 14 slots or they make some of the skills like maybe the combat res not a skill on the hot bar. I would also take combining some skills like maybe the group taunt with the blind or the buff remover skill with one of the damage skills!
@Iksar @Damacon - I agree that the 12 slot action bar economy will be VERY restricting. The original 8 or so that were allowed in vanilla EQ really made a player make tough choices on which skills to have memorized at any given time (ESPECIALLY on a pvp server... "See invis" was mandatory). With that said though, the limited action buttons only applied to spells (and songs for bards); there were a lot of "skills" that didn't count towards the "memorized spells/songs". In particular, Taunt was one of the skills that didn't require a memorized slot. I'm hoping that there will be several skills/abilities that most classes will have that don't count toward the 12 slot limit... like maybe warrior banners or paladin hymns (or some other toggled skills that you have to select one from many) and a lot of the physical attacks. Here's to hoping.
more slots easier it is... it becomes a toonish game for 10 year olds like WoW. (DONT get me started on WoW its terrible and you all know it). I want an adult fantasy mmo that plays like chess. The paladin isnt simply a tank or blah blah blah .. a Paladin is supposed to always be a leader first.. (but why not 1h spears + shield? doesnt that make a lot of sense for a pally? ie jousting..) and people keep ragging on aoe... THATS what pallies do.. they heal, rally and inspire -thier- party because why? They are the leader class. And this undead thing. Pallys should be alert or aware before other classes when any evil is lurking about not just the evil dead (saw my chance there and took it). And someone suggested Paladins should have ranged weapons. Im sorry but just imagining that makes me feel unpleasant. Also, Paladins should have a certain level of auto agro with evil entities .. to a degree of course... as an aside..lower level walking dead and other evil things should be auto frightened or blinded etc. Ive essentially been playing only pally (to full lvl cap) all my life... A Paladin should be considered more than the sum of his/her parts. A Pally is a rally cry to arms against evil and protector of the people and really the only class in any game that has a purpose built into its character. They are the heros of almost any story. Anyway its obvious I RP..You all have good points.. I wish the best of luck to this game and you all and that it doesnt blow like EQ3 which hurt me worse than when my fiance left me (that parts actually true) if it comes to fruition Ill make sure to leave a few undead for ya...
I have always seen Paladins as the life saver for a party when the s**t hits the fan. The main healers going down the Paladin steps in and does some on the spot heals. The tank drops the Paladin steps in and holds the line. The Paladin shines when things start going wrong.
Gadareth said:I have always seen Paladins as the life saver for a party when the s**t hits the fan. The main healers going down the Paladin steps in and does some on the spot heals. The tank drops the Paladin steps in and holds the line. The Paladin shines when things start going wrong.
That's how I see the paladin as well, the one that steps up when things go bad, but also someone that can be a tank if a tank is called for, someone that can help the healers out when they need some support, but not someone who's going to be the main healer.
Paladins are going to be solid tanks especially against undead and they also have a number of AOE threat generators that will give them the upper hand over other tanks in AOE situations. The heals they provide are a great utility that no other class has other than primary healers. I think something some people are missing when they read up on the paladin is how crucial the CC abilities they have will be. Right now there is a shortage in CC classes (enchanter being the only primary focus). Some classes have a root and rogues have smoke and mirrors but other than that there is deffinitely a need for control especially with how imperative it will be in this game. This is where i think a good paladin will shine. Abilities like glorified self, knight's persuasion, and miraculous shimmer all work towards offering the group more control. I can see a group lacking an enchanter being able to make it through dungeons with a strong paladin that knows how to leverage these control abilities. When you look at the other tanks i think paladins carry far more utility than warrior and dire lord.