Forums » The Rogue

Flash Bomb - Rogue Feign Death?

    • 415 posts
    May 17, 2018 11:52 AM PDT

    By the description in the class page.

    Flash Bomb - Throw a flash bomb at your feet, immediately ending combat. This ability automatically activates Shadow Walk or Shadow Dwell.

    So, you use the ability, are immediately put out of combat, and are then in stealth. This seems functionally equivalent to feign death in that it immediately drops you out of combat, leaving your enemies to wander back to their spawn points. The difference between the monk lying motionless vs. the rogue ending in stealth is fairly minor in my opinion. Will rogues be able to split pull or viciously train their enemies the way monks were able to in EQ?

    • 4401 posts
    May 17, 2018 12:19 PM PDT

    This was my thought and kinda raised my eyebrow when I was reading it. Definitely curious to see how this plays out in testing. Maybe Rogues will receive this ability at a later level than Monks get FD?

    • 98 posts
    May 17, 2018 12:57 PM PDT

    What I picked up on in Rogue's was their stealth effects work on "living, non-magical targets".  So does that mean undead can see a sneaking rogue?  Will a summoned creature not be fooled?  With this, you could still use the Flash to end combat, but if it *is* a mob that can see through stealth, will they just agro you again right away?

    • 415 posts
    May 17, 2018 1:44 PM PDT

    It does indeed sound like an enemy that can see through stealth would just re-aggro. This is of course all speculation at this point, but I would think there would be strategies to work around that too. If you are running away from enemies, then use Flash Bomb just as you round a corner, then the enemies will disengage, but not have line of sight to see you. Would actually be kinda funny to see a rogue run behind a tree with a flash of smoke, and then all the enemies go "Well, I guess he's gone now, let's go back home" lol.

    • 1825 posts
    May 17, 2018 3:01 PM PDT

    Looks like Vanish from wow, or escape from EQ1's AA. I guess it won't be as "low cooldown" as FD will be, and will have the duality to allow you either a survival to unwanted aggro, either a DPS gain with Shadowfall usage.

    • 112 posts
    May 17, 2018 4:39 PM PDT
    I was very excited when i saw this skill. Sign me up for a Rogue!
    • 98 posts
    May 17, 2018 4:55 PM PDT

    urgatorbait said: I was very excited when i saw this skill. Sign me up for a Rogue!

     

    Welcome to the dark, er, Shadow side!

    • 69 posts
    May 18, 2018 3:59 AM PDT

    Would be pretty cool if it could function as an FD type tool, and why not?  No harm in more than one class being able to pull - and I would even argue this style of split pulling would seem more plausible than Monk having a random heart attack and flopping over dead :)

     

    I really like the repetoire of Rogue abilities shown, really makes them so much more than just DPS which helps make a class far more interesting in my opinion

    • 43 posts
    May 18, 2018 5:25 AM PDT
    Yes, I think this ability will allow a rogue to split pull in certain scenarios where living and non magical mobs are involved. I’m sure it won’t be ideal as monk pulling (longer cooldown, monk’s ability can work on more mobs), but I think it will be a great situational benefit for the rogue class.
    • 43 posts
    May 18, 2018 5:25 AM PDT
    Yes, I think this ability will allow a rogue to split pull in certain scenarios where living and non magical mobs are involved. I’m sure it won’t be ideal as monk pulling (longer cooldown, monk’s ability can work on more mobs), but I think it will be a great situational benefit for the rogue class.
    • 768 posts
    May 18, 2018 4:47 PM PDT

    This is more like Escape AA in EQ1. I would love to see rogues being able to pull like monks. Pop smoke on mob you want to stick around. Pop Flash Bomb to evade train. Pull single. Would need to adapt some AI to counter this or maybe smoke and mirrors doesnt stack with flash bomb so it wakes up goes back home with rest of group? But if you have some sort of trap or other snare this should work. I don't think its a bad idea to have more pulling tactics among other classes. Generates diverse gameplay.

    • 2740 posts
    May 18, 2018 4:52 PM PDT

    Nightsong said:

    What I picked up on in Rogue's was their stealth effects work on "living, non-magical targets".  So does that mean undead can see a sneaking rogue?  Will a summoned creature not be fooled?  With this, you could still use the Flash to end combat, but if it *is* a mob that can see through stealth, will they just agro you again right away?

    They can stealth against magical targets too.

    • 235 posts
    May 19, 2018 8:59 AM PDT
    Probably on a long cooldown
    • 89 posts
    May 19, 2018 9:57 AM PDT

    I would love to see this. I could see it causing to create more diverse and intresting gameplay elements and tactics.

    Example: Rogue pulls more than one by accident. He uses smoke and mirrors on one then runs back further where a ranger layed a trap. The second mob gets caught and then the rogue deaggros the final mob with flash bomb. 

    The ranger then could use harpoon shot to pull the final mob in for the kill while the first is unaware (due to smoke and mirrors and then the flash bomb) and the second is trapped momentarily.

    • 645 posts
    May 20, 2018 3:17 AM PDT
    I'm afraid rogues are better pullers that rangers, maybe even on par with monks. And they also get area hard cc, like the enchanter. Hope we don't not end up in a situation where you rather bring a rogue, than a monk and a enchanter.

    Also on pvp servers rogues will by far be the best class, no doubt..
    • 89 posts
    May 20, 2018 7:22 AM PDT

    I think rogues in the end will still be a mostly dps Oreiented class, with long cool downs on the cc and pull abilities. We’ll just have to wait and see.

    Pvp wise we still haven’t seen all the abilities so it’s too soon to judge. (Keep in mind even as someone who loves pvp I would like to see the development of pve first pvp second).

    What abilities have you worried to think rogues will be so over powered though pvp wise?

     

    • 645 posts
    May 20, 2018 7:48 AM PDT
    Mainly invis, combined with long ccs. A rogue could 1v2 in many situations. Cc one guy, and jump the other all done very fast from a favorable position (invis).

    They are also known as a burst dps class, with interrupts, stuns, and with a get out of jail free card in smoke bomb they don't have to be afraid of dying.

    I agree pve > pvp and yeah we don't know enough, but I feel like no classes should be the jack of all trades as we see here.
    • 89 posts
    May 20, 2018 10:19 AM PDT

    Invis is usually pretty easy to combat in pvp with a ”See invis” spell or item (such as Bracer of the hidden from Everquest). It may be a bit to work against in the early levels though. 

    If your buddy gets mezzed you can always aa him once to get him back into the battle. 

    You also won’t have all your pvp abilities up while yo pve and vice versa. It’s all very situational.

    But, we will have to see the class as a whole. Sometimes some classes are better suited for pvp than orhers and I don’t necessarily think that’s a problem. Get a good stun on the rogue in a 2v1 and he’s toast.

     


    This post was edited by eldrun at May 20, 2018 10:21 AM PDT
    • 1085 posts
    May 20, 2018 11:29 AM PDT

    I hope the alchemy based abilities require reagents. Would be a good way to limit their use and take some money out of the game.

    • 89 posts
    May 20, 2018 12:53 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    I hope the alchemy based abilities require reagents. Would be a good way to limit their use and take some money out of the game.

    This. 

    It would definitely add another level of gameplay and be a bit of a limiter on spamming the abilities.

    • 929 posts
    May 21, 2018 8:46 AM PDT
    Personal opinion incoming! I’m fine with the rogue having a skill that compliments their other skills so well. I think that with the skill set described (assuming cooldowns and reagents are reasonable) that the rogue could make for an amazing puller in some situations. With that being said, if the ranger gets something similar to the harmony/lull line of skills, combined with their eye of zomm scouting abilities, and alarms to denote pathers, all 3 of the melee dps could be viable pullers. I’m perfectly ok with not relying on a single class for a role.
    • 929 posts
    May 21, 2018 8:56 AM PDT
    In regard to the skills in pvp... as a SHD in EQ1, the rogue was one of the easiest fights, and as the DK in WoW I could easily 1v3 rogues even though I couldn’t see them. So being able to drop out of combat vs an NPC is not the same when against a player... CC that breaks on damage is easily countered in pvp by simply putting a low lvl DoT on yourself or just hitting an ally. I don’t foresee the rogue being “OP” in pvp past the level where players have see invis options. (EVERYONE on a pvp server prioritizes see invis... where on a pve server, those items/spells are rarely if ever used).
    • 69 posts
    May 22, 2018 4:22 AM PDT

    BamBam said: I'm afraid rogues are better pullers that rangers, maybe even on par with monks. And they also get area hard cc, like the enchanter. Hope we don't not end up in a situation where you rather bring a rogue, than a monk and a enchanter. Also on pvp servers rogues will by far be the best class, no doubt..

     

    I don't think it is too much of a worry.  Rogue at best is still inferior to Monk pulling due to restricted mobs it works on.  They all offer differeing things:

    Tthe Enchanter is Party Support and will have the most tools for Crowd Control and likely best cooldowns for it.  CC is really only one part of a Chanters job, keeping the party resources going, speeding up there combat abilities are no doubt key aspects (possibly also being able to slow the enemy too)

    The Rogue is DPS who can control a fight primarily via a split pull (limited mob types) along with limited ability to CC in the combat. 

    The Ranger is DPS who has battlefield control - when a pull goes wrong/respawns get out of hand he can take mobs away from the combat area, locking them down via traps and keeping them out the way, or using his abilities to kite mobs around, using things like warning shot to help avoid unexpected adds turning up. 

    The monk is DPS with the best split pulling, if adds show up they have the toughness to control via off tank and self healing to try keep an add busy, depending on skills their tools may be short term snap aggro abilites to help keep danger away from the squishies until tank has control.

    • 15 posts
    June 1, 2018 9:07 AM PDT
    2 things I have seen anyone take into consideration.

    A: if I'm understanding the nature of Rogue class skill, this will be consumable based. How ever neat it may be, you can only do it as many times as you have this consumable on you. In later day eq, I remember monks having an off tank technique we called yoyo tanking. Basically a talented monk could agro something, then as it got to them, they'd flop. It'd start heading off to something else, the monk would stand up, throw something, require agro, rise, repeat. Fd was a short timer, instant and UNLIMITED. Flashbomb will not be. Critical difference, a rogue will never been able to.yoyo tank.

    2: as to the normal, unmagical critters thing, if yall recall, rogues didn't start out permanent invisible to everything in stealth mode at the start either. That was something they got 2 or 4 expansions in. They were vulnerable before that. In that I expect Pantheon will last more than a few months, I expect rogues (and everyone else's powers) to grow over time.

    Also, III: as to the mana usage of I don't exist mode, as AA's and gear progressed my wizard went from running out of mana on AOW fights in velious, to still having mana left by the end of spamming as fast as I could, and not pulling agro, all because of 1 expansions upgrades in gear, AAs and spells improvements. Is it not reasonable to think a few expansions in, this system may still exist, but it never comes up in conversation because it's no longer an issue? Oh ye of little faith...
    • 73 posts
    June 10, 2018 2:40 PM PDT

    I'm personnally ok with a situational consumble granting stealth in the middle of a fight. Any powerful effect should be balanced. In that case, if all mobs could be fooled and if it weren't a consumable, a rogue could trick the same mobs all day long. Considering all the utility a rogue has (and should have) i think it's ok to limit it. It also makes crafting more interesting because you'll have to craft some must haves, even at high level. That completely goes my way. It will be more of a lifesaver or occasionnal tactic rather than a way to fool mobs on a repetitive basis, which i think is better.


    This post was edited by Gideon at June 10, 2018 2:41 PM PDT