Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord vs Blood Mage

    • 718 posts
    April 12, 2018 12:12 PM PDT

    While listening to Bazgrim's class interview with Joppa at PAX East, I couldn't help but draw comparisons between the Vangaurd Blood Mage and the description of the Dire Lord.  And even to take this a step further, the great Dungeon Master, Matthew Mercer, developed a 5e D&D class known as the Blood Hunter which seems very similar to VR's vision for the Dire Lord.  There are obvious distinctions we can already make, even before an official class reveal (i.e. caster/healer vs. melee/tank) but I'm curious what everyone thinks of this direction for the Dire Lord.

    • 42 posts
    April 12, 2018 1:36 PM PDT

    i believe Dire Lord is similar to vanguards dread knight.
    here it is called dire lord must be spread so much blood as possible.
    at vanguard it was called dread. but i like to idea too to tank without shild especially dual wielding.
    but i dont like 2-handed tanking because its feeling wrong and non realistic. Because with 2 hander you are to slow with your reactions.

    and please let him not heal.


    This post was edited by Pufug at April 12, 2018 1:37 PM PDT
    • 718 posts
    April 12, 2018 1:49 PM PDT

    Pufug said:

    i believe Dire Lord is similar to vanguards dread knight.
    here it is called dire lord must be spread so much blood as possible.
    at vanguard it was called dread. but i like to idea too to tank without shild especially dual wielding.
    but i dont like 2-handed tanking because its feeling wrong and non realistic. Because with 2 hander you are to slow with your reactions.

    and please let him not heal.

    If you haven't had a chance to watch the interview I'm referring to, you can find it here.  The portion regarding the Dire Lord begins at ~00:16:46 in the video.  Joppa's latest comments regarding the class is why I bring this up.  I think it's fair to assume that our general perceptions about what the Dire Lord is will be changing going forward based on this information.

    • 13 posts
    April 12, 2018 7:17 PM PDT

    Honestly, when I first listened to the interview and honed in on the "bloodletting" associated with the Dire Lord, I started having a bit of an identity crisis. I've traditionally mained the Shadowknight class and its variants in MMOs since Kunark released in EQ, as I'm much more fond of the edgier sword wielding types, unlike the Paladin and the Warrior. It wasn't about class mechanics as much as it was about the romantic aesthetic of the fallen knight; the once Paladin who now rebelled against unrealistic ideology and willful ignorance of more complicated moral choices. The idea of manipulating blood as a means of combat was always a little too early Black Sabbath for me, which was why I never played a Blood Mage in VG.

    That said, it isn't like the Shadowknight and other variants weren't at least equally tone deaf in their over zealous portrayal. Seeing as how the Dire Lord's aesthetic lends itself well to past SK abilities, I imagine that they'll play similarly, and I'll just have to pretend that deep down I'm not Ozzy on an acid trip. :D

    • 929 posts
    April 18, 2018 6:35 PM PDT

    Stizzelkin said:

    Honestly, when I first listened to the interview and honed in on the "bloodletting" associated with the Dire Lord, I started having a bit of an identity crisis. I've traditionally mained the Shadowknight class and its variants in MMOs since Kunark released in EQ, as I'm much more fond of the edgier sword wielding types, unlike the Paladin and the Warrior. It wasn't about class mechanics as much as it was about the romantic aesthetic of the fallen knight; the once Paladin who now rebelled against unrealistic ideology and willful ignorance of more complicated moral choices. The idea of manipulating blood as a means of combat was always a little too early Black Sabbath for me, which was why I never played a Blood Mage in VG.

    That said, it isn't like the Shadowknight and other variants weren't at least equally tone deaf in their over zealous portrayal. Seeing as how the Dire Lord's aesthetic lends itself well to past SK abilities, I imagine that they'll play similarly, and I'll just have to pretend that deep down I'm not Ozzy on an acid trip. :D

    the original blood death knight in WoW was similar to the verbal description of the dire lord.  Although I mained SHD in EQ, I found the DK play style to feel much more like a “tank”.  Manipulating blood to create blood magic barriers with death strikes to act as a shield while generating threat through decent damage.  I’m actually looking forward to playing the DL (I was fearing they would be restricted to sword n board and doing trash dmg to “tank” like the original SHD)

    the question that comes to mind for me now is if large races will have something similar to the arm slam attack that the smaller races had to have a shield equipped in order to “bash”

    • 130 posts
    April 20, 2018 1:11 PM PDT

    What if the mob you're fighting doesn't have any blood? Will they make them weaker against these? Or for game mechanic sake is there no difference whether or not the thing has blood?

    • 203 posts
    April 27, 2018 12:22 AM PDT

    Not having played Vanguard, I'm not sure how the Blood Mage played, but some of the skills do indeed look interesting. It will be exciting to see how the class finally plays out - a combination of Blood Mage, Shadow Knight, and as Nikademis mentioned, Blood Hunter, would be a unique and great class to play.

    zendrel said:

    What if the mob you're fighting doesn't have any blood? Will they make them weaker against these? Or for game mechanic sake is there no difference whether or not the thing has blood?

    I would imagine that the lack of blood would hinder some of the class abilities, but it should not completely nobble a DL. Necromantic curses and hexes and typical fantasy skills like bone shield, epidemic/contagion and agony, along with Harm Touch, should remain and see the DL through battle. Alternatively, stabbing a party member in the leg to get some blood flowing could be an option!

     

    • 2740 posts
    April 27, 2018 11:28 AM PDT

    Pretty sure they mentioned things without blood will hamper DL a little bit but they will still have use of other abilities in those situations. 

    • 929 posts
    April 27, 2018 1:46 PM PDT

    There's also the option of the DL sacrificing their own health to fuel skills if the enemy happens to be bloodless.  It wouldn't be the first game to have this mechanic.  Maybe a flat % of HP per skill and on a successful hit it returns x% of damage done as life and any overflow becomes temp HP or something *shrug*

    • 203 posts
    April 27, 2018 9:37 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    There's also the option of the DL sacrificing their own health to fuel skills if the enemy happens to be bloodless.  It wouldn't be the first game to have this mechanic.  Maybe a flat % of HP per skill and on a successful hit it returns x% of damage done as life and any overflow becomes temp HP or something *shrug*

    Sounds reasonable.

    After making a joke about stabbing party members to generate blood as a material component for a spell/hex, I've actually though about it a little more and decided it would be a nice mechanic to have. A last ditch effort to pull off something spectacular at the cost of 25% (?) of a party members health. Parties would need to trust their DL to keep aggro!

    • 1825 posts
    April 29, 2018 6:11 AM PDT

    I do think it would be more reasonnable to have the DL use his ennemies blood to refill and sustain himself while actively tanking, and his own blood to harm when not tanking (or tanking trivial ennemies).

     

    Tanks eating their own lives were rarelly "greatly aknowledged" in MMO's.

    • 200 posts
    April 29, 2018 8:18 AM PDT

    zendrel said:

    What if the mob you're fighting doesn't have any blood? Will they make them weaker against these? Or for game mechanic sake is there no difference whether or not the thing has blood?

    Good question, and I hope they do make Dire Lords weaker against creatures without blood since one of the most iconic examples of creatures without blood are Undead, which Paladins should really shine against.  (quite literally!)

    • 203 posts
    April 29, 2018 4:22 PM PDT

    Nihimon said:

    zendrel said:

    What if the mob you're fighting doesn't have any blood? Will they make them weaker against these? Or for game mechanic sake is there no difference whether or not the thing has blood?

    Good question, and I hope they do make Dire Lords weaker against creatures without blood since one of the most iconic examples of creatures without blood are Undead, which Paladins should really shine against.  (quite literally!)

    Which I think it a great idea also - as long as they're not completely gimped and nobody ends up taking a DL tank for those areas containing predominately undead/constructs/elementals/oozes etc.

    Hence my idea for the stabbing a party member (or themselves) skill. If a DL can still tank (albeit with more difficulty) standard mob of the above categories, and then have to use a long cooldown skill (lets call it 'blood of the martyr') where they get blood from another source and be able to use it on a boss, this would still make them viable. Obviously, parties will still prefer a Pally for undead bosses, and that is fine - just as long as DL isn't completely sidelined due to complete uselessness.

    • 70 posts
    May 20, 2018 3:31 PM PDT

    I was just about to write a similar post when discovered this one buried down the list. 

     

    I know a lot of us are somewhat attached to classes of days gone past as they fill our heads with some of our fondest gaming memories. That said we must also remember at the time when we first played these historical classes they were new and exhilarating and over time of playing those new classes we formed a bond with them. 

    Many of you hail from EQ and align yourselves with and have a passionate bond with the Shadow Knight. Some of us are the same with the Dread Knight from Vanguard. This is the cycle of the evolving landscape of emergent online games.  I underwent the same thing in Vanguard. The prominent two player factions in Vanguard pre-release for the Dread Knight were the EQ Shadow Knights and the DAOC Reavers. In the beginning, neither side really wanted to let go of the bond they shared with their respected classes they had come to love over years of gameplay. However, you might be surprised how many Vanguard Dread Knight players would rather play a Dread Kight today over an SK or Reaver of yesterday.  I was the class lead for the Vanguard Dead Knight and I am most certain I have a stronger bond to that class above any others I have ever played. I spent countless hours over the course of two years shedding blood sweat and tears into managing the personally funded Dread Knight community site, acting as a liaison for the community to the developers, and working with the developers day in and day out to help with the continual design and development of the class.  

    Here me when I say this, let go your emotional bond with your favorite classes from days gone past, contribute to the future of a new class with new mechanics, dynamics, and themes. You might just be surprised how fun and exhilarating it will be. 

     

    To answer the OP's question: "I'm curious what everyone thinks of this direction for the Dire Lord?"

    I think it is awesome that they are not sticking with the traditional mechanics and dynamics of the historical SK/Reaver. I look forward to an entirely new class with its own identity in the lineage of the dark knight line of player characters. 

     

    The Bazgrim interview with Perkins did bring to light some things about the Dire Lord Class. 

     

    Legends speak of Dire Lords capable of mastering the crippling power of fear, with some able to manipulate the ‘essence’ of living things--even their very blood.

     

    Facts:

    1. Dire Lord Class will be required to use edged weaponry - source Perkins/Bazgrim Interview 

    2. The basic premise of the Dire Lord is to cause as much bloodletting as possible - source Perkins/Bazgrim Interview 

    3. Manipulate Blood internally and external - move it, change its properties, draw things from it, inject things into it. - source Perkins/Bazgrim Interview 

     

    From this interview, we can safely consider Bloodletting will be one of the, if not the primary, class mechanic. That said we must also look to other official information from VR. Notice above in the official short description the word essence with short quotes around it. This combined with the interview information we can also safely consider that blood should not be taken in the literal sense, but rather essence should. Also, we must not take the word living as just the corporeal, but rather as anything animated and sentient, anything with an essence.

    Essence: a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.

     

    So while bloodletting is the proper word for draining blood out of humans and animals in RL, maybe we should think more along the lines of 'essenceletting' as this is a magical high-fantasy setting. So altho skeletons, whisps, ghosts, wraiths and other fantasy creatures in the undead/supernatural category may not have actual blood in their veins they do have an essence without which they would not exist.  

     

    What I am getting at here is don't get to wrapped around the axel that the only things the DL will be able to tank, are only those things with actual blood in the veins. I for one don't believe that will be the case. 

    When I first listened to the interview I also identified the bloodletting class mechanic more with the VG Bloodmage than any other class. That said this is a Dark Knight player character and as such will more than likely still have many of its ancestral predecessors traits. 

    To be honest I quite welcome the divergence from the traditional. The Bloodmage to me was one of the most fun and unique healing classes ever designed IMHO. The Vanguard Dread Knight's primary class mechanic Dreadful Countenance was new and fresh, but the class as a whole still held on to its traditional roots. I would welcome a more dark/blood magic based/themed class than the traditional necromancy class. 

     

     

     

    Something I really like about the development path the Dire Lord is taking is that the bloodletting mechanic/system lends to greater potential to self and party preservation. Instead of just casting Life Taps either DD or DoT the path the Dire Lord is taking may allow for more creative and involved gameplay. Think of all the possibilities associated with manipulating the very life essence of an entity. Being able to move it, change its properties, draw things from it, inject things into it. Letting the essence out of an entity changing its properties to benefit you and your party.  Draw essence out of the target, change it to a heal, cast heal on self or party member. Draw essence out of the target, change it to a buff or debuff. Draw essence out of the target, poison it or corrupt it and force it back into the entity.  

    I am enthusiastic to see where development takes this class.