We keep seeing the wizard in just about every stream. What makes them different? Convo, you posted a thread titled "best class ever". What makes it so? I'm not seeing anything different than any other game.
At one point I heard that having a wizard in group would extend the duration of buffs by channeling the buffs through the wizard. I have watched every stream that involved a wizard and haven't seen anything new or unique.
Has something been implemented that makes them different from wizards in other games? I may play a wizard if there is something that makes them stand out.
They seem very bland and vanilla, arcane dps. What am I missing?
MauvaisOeil said:They seem very bland and vanilla, arcane dps. What am I missing?
It's pre alpha. Dont wait for heavy designed class and functionnality for now, most aren't finished or even started yet.
Convo is probably hyped about wizard class designs that might not be in yet.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Pre-Alpha is intended to make sure they have a solid functioning combat foundation on which they can add additional layers of depth later. I'd reserve judgment until at least alpha or beta. They really have a knack for making things feel familiar, yet different. I have no doubt that they will approach the Wizard design with the same philosophy.
Ok, sure, it's pre-alpha; it's not done. Fair. That said, they're are using the pre-alpha to vector in on what feels right and what doesn't, so constructive criticism about qualitative aspects of the class - like pacing, flow, and high-level flavor - should be encouraged. I think philo has a valid point about the class based on what we've seen in streams so far. The devs would be wise to consider his sentiment as they continue to refine the class and the community manager would be wise to consider his post when deciding whether or not to showcase wizard gameplay in future streams.
Shai said:Ok, sure, it's pre-alpha; it's not done. Fair. That said, they're are using the pre-alpha to vector in on what feels right and what doesn't, so constructive criticism about qualitative aspects of the class - like pacing, flow, and high-level flavor - should be encouraged. I think philo has a valid point about the class based on what we've seen in streams so far. The devs would be wise to consider his sentiment as they continue to refine the class and the community manager would be wise to consider his post when deciding whether or not to showcase wizard gameplay in future streams.
We also haven't seen gameplay from the perspective of the Wizard. It's hard to really tell what's going on just by looking at. There may be more going on to casting abilities than meets the eye.
I wouldn't, personally, even judge or criticize (even constructively) class design on alpha. Because once the main idea is here, once the world is designed, once everything is close to be done, it's easy to change and balance skills and gameplay around.
I would wait at least a PoV Wizard video, even there I would feel a bit early if it's not late alpha/early beta to criticize. Not because I'm against constructive thinking, but because it's not positive to doubt of things while they are only beeing put together, and can carry a grand scheme well more valuable once assembled.
I'll let them do the proper work first, and then I'd give my opinion about how I feel about what they assembled.
MauvaisOeil said:Convo is probably hyped about wizard class designs that might not be in yet.
I hope you are correct.
It's pre alpha. Dont wait for heavy designed class and functionnality for now, most aren't finished or even started yet.
Sure, but this is one of the few classes we have seeen kind of a lot from (a half dozen streams worth or so?) Most streams have had a wiz. We might actually be able to evaluate them with some amount of accuracy compared to many of the other classes.
We have seen familiars so there is that, I'm not sure what their function was so hopefully there are interesting things to learn about there. Nuke, root. Ya, hopefully there is more to see that stands out as a unique take on the class.
The whole colored mana system was a unique idea that would have minimized a lot of my concerns about "blandness" I think...through conversations on the forum I have been informed that the system may have been largely minimized at this point. That would have been a solution.
philo said:We keep seeing the wizard in just about every stream. What makes them different? Convo, you posted a thread titled "best class ever". What makes it so? I'm not seeing anything different than any other game.
At one point I heard that having a wizard in group would extend the duration of buffs by channeling the buffs through the wizard. I have watched every stream that involved a wizard and haven't seen anything new or unique.
Has something been implemented that makes them different from wizards in other games? I may play a wizard if there is something that makes them stand out.
They seem very bland and vanilla, arcane dps. What am I missing?
You're missing a lot but you're also correct in that we're just not showing it all. For a few reasons, and I'm sorry that my "best class ever" post came off as a tease. I’ve shared a lot of my ideas with Joppa on this class and we’ve really put together what I hope is a more engaging and fun class than other games have offered. I could also be wrong and you will all hate it and hate us for it! Hah, I hope that wont be the case. :-)
It's definitely not a finished version of what you will experience. Not even close and typically folks are correct to assume you won't see more of a finished version until late Alpha. Unfortunately, there is only so much I can say right now on the class until it gets a more proper “official” reveal. I hope this at least alleviates some of the concern for now but I do hold this class dear to my heart and I look forward to all your feedback in testing to possibly take it to even greater heights.
Convo said:I could also be wrong and you will all hate it and hate us for it! Hah, I hope that wont be the case. :-)
Naw, no hate ...worst case scenario is I play another class ;)
Convo said:there is only so much I can say right now on the class until it gets a more proper “official” reveal. I hope this at least alleviates some of the concern for now but I do hold this class dear to my heart and I look forward to all your feedback in testing to possibly take it to even greater heights.
An official reveal would be nice...and probably go a long way towards alleviating some of my concern. The straight forward reply is very appreciated. Thanks for the response.
Convo said:I’ve shared a lot of my ideas with Joppa on this class and we’ve really put together what I hope is a more engaging and fun class than other games have offered. I could also be wrong and you will all hate it and hate us for it! Hah, I hope that wont be the case. :-)
I am both excited and terrified by this :)
I have outlined in other posts my memories of the old EQ1 wizard and the big draw backs it had in the Kurnack era. Convo responded to this - which was great! And what I have seeen so far from the streams seems to indicate that we will be able to sustain some dps without sitting out for multiple mobs. Nice !! Major drawback of old seems to be absent!
However - has tactical burst, the core of our class, suffered? The old (EQ1 classic) wizard had a great feel to it and I hope that it isn't lost too much with any revamp.
From the streams so far I have seen a lot more continuous casting from the wizard and far less burst and sit gameplay. However, I have also seen times when a strong burst from the wizard would have really helped, and it didn't really seem to be there.
Yes, it's early. Yes things will change. Yes we should keep our eye on it.
I am hoping that along with the ability to provide modest sustainable magic dps over time (such as we have seen in the streams, and unlike the EQ1 wizard of old) we also get the ability to dump all our mana quickly with huge burst - and suffer long downtime as a result even perhaps with a debuff applied (exhausted).
We need a modest level of sustained dps to be group friendly - and the ability to dump and burn when tactically important - as this is what I see as the core of our class. Given the desire for burst capability, I for one would happily have our sustained dps lower than other dps classes (just not abyssmal like Kurnak EQ)
TLDR: So - yep things will change. Current status quo needs more burst IMO. Excited to see what the next iteration brings.
Good job Convo! :)
I’ve shared a lot of my ideas with Joppa on this class and we’ve really put together what I hope is a more engaging and fun class than other games have offered. I could also be wrong and you will all hate it and hate us for it! Hah, I hope that wont be the case. :-)
As I recall a lot of wizards at least in eq were all about the dps in raids and many times neglected the small stuff, like stuns a well timed sleep or root, the all saving evac, I hope the flair to the class goes beyond simply dps. That goes for all classes, anyone remember being deep in a dungeon and out of water or food and the elation of a class that could summon water or give you foraged food? or scrapinf copper pieces and binding in the deep "safe area" to teleport out and sell fine steel for the group and buying food and water for them? stuff like that was what forged a fienships and secured reputations, teleporting people for donations or runes , bumming a sow from a druid..etc.
Yaladan said:As I recall a lot of wizards at least in eq were all about the dps in raids and many times neglected the small stuff, like stuns a well timed sleep or root, the all saving evac, I hope the flair to the class goes beyond simply dps. That goes for all classes, anyone remember being deep in a dungeon and out of water or food and the elation of a class that could summon water or give you foraged food? or scrapinf copper pieces and binding in the deep "safe area" to teleport out and sell fine steel for the group and buying food and water for them? stuff like that was what forged a fienships and secured reputations, teleporting people for donations or runes , bumming a sow from a druid..etc.
That's a curse in most MMO, people focus on the raw numbers and all they want are raw numbers. When utility comes, they just trash it in favor of "They do more DPS than me", hybrid healing frown upon, utility is frown upon, class diversity is frown upon.
I would have loved back in EQ as a rogue, to be more than just a backstab with legs (of course I had stealth, but sometimes it ended bad, especially in NToV), and when I saw druids and wizards quad kiting, snaring, or soloing some parts of my epic just for me, I wished I could do something special too, but my kit was really straightforward.
MauvaisOeil said:They seem very bland and vanilla, arcane dps. What am I missing?
It's pre alpha. Dont wait for heavy designed class and functionnality for now, most aren't finished or even started yet.
Convo is probably hyped about wizard class designs that might not be in yet.
As has been said, this is pre alpha, be patient.
I will tell you of my glass cannon, nuker in EQ. I remember standing in the newbie yard in front of Qeynos and watching a higher level (maybe 10) wizard shoot a fireball a long way across the yard. And seeing it knock down a target that was not targeted as it continued on its way toward the target which it incinerated.
I remember as a higher level, porting a group to the Plane of Sky: an original end raid zone before PoP. We got on the first island and are awaiting the arrivel of the other 5 groups. Those dungeons took 12 groups of 6. When all of us buffed we prepared to fight our way to the next island, maintaing total silence becasue one tell, one say, one shout, would agrro the island. And as we aproach the point of cross over: our GL fell off the island. (He couldnt come back)
I remember getting the raid that got me my last piece for my Epic and the people that worked with me to help me as I helped them with theirs.
In short, I remember every class in EQ and race combo because I played them all for long enough to gain a simple understanding of the ones I didnt play full time. That was 19 years ago.
Given time I think PRF is going to do the same. I don't think there is going to be a 'bland' class here.
I wanted to let this die because convo responded and the answer was basically "wait for it"...which is understandable.
But I want to respond @graysilk anyway hah.
I think it is a safe assumption on these forums that a majority of the time other people played early EQ (many of us heavily). You did a nice job explaining about PoS and some of your times in EQ but I feel like the point was missed.
At this point, almost 20 years later the EQ classes have been copied, to some extent, time and time again. They are exactly the "bland" that is being referred to. They were great back then but they don't cut it anymore. There can, and will, be some similarities but classes should be updated enough to feel different. Different mechanics, updated play styles etc.
We have seen updated mechanics in some classes but not others. Rogues being able to CC at the expense of dps when needed is one that comes to mind. We haven't seen this from the wizard yet (though there were some interesting wizard mechanics discussed a couple years back). We are in the wait and see stage but wizards have been seen in about every stream. We are probably pushing close to 20 streams now and we haven't seen anything unique out of them yet (other than brads warwizard that doesn't really count, we have probably seen wizards more than any other class). I'm patient and hoping that we see the caster classes release info soon.
As you'll recall from my class discussion with Joppa, it's likely that Wizards will have more mobility than you're used to and that mobility will play a factor in how they deal damage. I think a basic example of this would be that if a Wizard begins to cast a big fireball and then blinks a certain distance in the direction it's casting the fireball, that "momentum" could cause the fireball to travel faster and therefore deal more damage. Again, that's just an example, but little mechanics like that could make the Wizard feel fresh.
Yaladan said:
I’ve shared a lot of my ideas with Joppa on this class and we’ve really put together what I hope is a more engaging and fun class than other games have offered. I could also be wrong and you will all hate it and hate us for it! Hah, I hope that wont be the case. :-)
As I recall a lot of wizards at least in eq were all about the dps in raids and many times neglected the small stuff, like stuns a well timed sleep or root, the all saving evac, I hope the flair to the class goes beyond simply dps. That goes for all classes, anyone remember being deep in a dungeon and out of water or food and the elation of a class that could summon water or give you foraged food? or scrapinf copper pieces and binding in the deep "safe area" to teleport out and sell fine steel for the group and buying food and water for them? stuff like that was what forged a fienships and secured reputations, teleporting people for donations or runes , bumming a sow from a druid..etc.
I raided from SoV to OoW and the DPS obsession really became an issue when Manaburn was unlocked.
The real problem with EQ1 wizards was they were a one trick pony with no real group benefit other then evac/TLs. weak roots, weak snare, laughable buff I cant remember and a pet (Xuzl flaming sword) that was a novalty. Once PoP hit wiz/druids wernt really even needed for ports. I'm not saying a good player didnt trump a class but the "perception" was if your group need to fill a spot and had to settle for a caster the rule of thumb was "get a mage with a pet before a wiz". and that was hard to argue.
I would like to see a reason for groups to not over look that wizard thats LFG. Give them a group buff or utility that is a boon for groups. I learned to solo/quad because spending two hours LFG at the zoneline while every other class was picked over me was such a waste of time.
So wizard are arcane, well what about a MR buff or a magical barrier buff (like the old wiz epic). Maybe more stuns that do less damage but will interupt casting, or even a silence spell. Add a slow element to ice spells, add a small burning dot to fire spells. Its the little things.
I have always wondered why they gave the clarity spell to Enchanters when they already had so many utilities. And the Wizard never got one. Unless it was in the form of potions or some item clicky shield that offered minimal results. Something as small as a mana regen for the group would make a big difference. You could go as far to say that the Wizard channels from his surroundings and everyone close to him has a mana buff.
Enchanters had slow, haste, mez, charm, they didn't need the clarity too. Bards had much the same as enchanters. Yet they were the only two classes to help save mana. Eventually they gave druid buffs a mana regen component. But nothing for the class who needs that mana the most lol
Moloka said:I have always wondered why they gave the clarity spell to Enchanters when they already had so many utilities. And the Wizard never got one. Unless it was in the form of potions or some item clicky shield that offered minimal results. Something as small as a mana regen for the group would make a big difference. You could go as far to say that the Wizard channels from his surroundings and everyone close to him has a mana buff.
Enchanters had slow, haste, mez, charm, they didn't need the clarity too. Bards had much the same as enchanters. Yet they were the only two classes to help save mana. Eventually they gave druid buffs a mana regen component. But nothing for the class who needs that mana the most lol
I think that's to promote class interdependency. If one class has everything it needs the most, then there's no reason to group with other people.
I'm so excited to get my hands on the wizard class! I can only imagine all the cool features!
Does anyone have any info on the two wizard...stances? Types? That I saw a post on the other week? The insanity wizard, and the...less insane wizard? Or...something? Let me look it up again.
Ugh, I can't find it now.
BUT! I did notice that https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/wizard/ now has something there? did it always?
My latin is very...very rusty, and Google didn't help much.
Here's what google told me the first paragraph says. I... don't think it's right.
"Mid need antioxidants laughter. Need to be innovative but hate leakage. Now at ecological advantage. Nullam various clinical need only sit a lot of football. Each graduated smile, convenience and transportation needs skirt is laughter. It also had some Laoreet, who nibh a lot of football. Boat and any diameter. At a leo or mass lay time. Class began Employment twist by our marriage, per himenaeos. Clinical and my sad, wind had not quiver tank. Losing the salad. Integer diam. No one in the confines of mourning"
Lyaelan said:I'm so excited to get my hands on the wizard class! I can only imagine all the cool features!
Does anyone have any info on the two wizard...stances? Types? That I saw a post on the other week? The insanity wizard, and the...less insane wizard? Or...something? Let me look it up again.
Ugh, I can't find it now.
BUT! I did notice that https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/wizard/ now has something there? did it always?
My latin is very...very rusty, and Google didn't help much.
Here's what google told me the first paragraph says. I... don't think it's right.
"Mid need antioxidants laughter. Need to be innovative but hate leakage. Now at ecological advantage. Nullam various clinical need only sit a lot of football. Each graduated smile, convenience and transportation needs skirt is laughter. It also had some Laoreet, who nibh a lot of football. Boat and any diameter. At a leo or mass lay time. Class began Employment twist by our marriage, per himenaeos. Clinical and my sad, wind had not quiver tank. Losing the salad. Integer diam. No one in the confines of mourning"
