Forums » The Elves

Elves! (questions for VR)

    • 16 posts
    February 14, 2018 9:56 AM PST

    Great update, and excellent article on the elves! I admit fuully to being an Elf-loving nerd (Blame Tolkein), but I was really excited to hear more about the concepts behind Pantheon's take on all tings Elvish. One aspect of the Ember elves stood out to me; the Ember as "pre-emptive defenders".While the lore describes why Elves are not Paladins (agree to disagree), Ember Elves sound like they would be "Crusaders" for Elven culture and security. How does VR see this from a martial point of view? 

    • 3025 posts
    February 14, 2018 11:04 AM PST

    "Another hot button issue was that of the lack of a Cleric or Paladin class available to our Elves. While the superficial answer of “think of them as wood elves, not high elves” makes sense to most veteran gamers, there is a deeper lore meaning behind that rationale. Justin explained that the races that were prone to produce Clerics and Paladins were ones that were deeply connected to their deities, and that relationship was one that was central to their daily lives. The Elves are a bit different in that regard.

    “While their pantheon is important to the Elves, their response to several tragic and divisive historical moments has superseded the way they see themselves. To a degree Elves have become more ideological than religious. While some races are separated into different factions based on which deity they worship, Elves are split between two extremes (Ashen and Ember) and the nominal middle called Lucent. Those division represent the way they think is best to protect and prosper their people. Is it interwoven with their worship? Yes. But faith isn’t the first-thought focus of their life. It’s fair to ask if that is an imbalance for them”

    It is also important to note that many of the lore based decisions on which race can be which class are also dictated to some degree by overall game representations and balance, and more importantly that just because something is currently so, doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t change in the future. Elves are a good example here, as while they currently don’t produce the pious classes, they may, through future events or interactions, develop a sect that takes up that mantle.

    We will have to keep a close watch on the lore to see what might develop in the future."

    Maybe someday they will be, but being proactive defenders of Elven kind doesn't necessarily equate to Paladin. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at February 14, 2018 11:06 AM PST
    • 40 posts
    February 14, 2018 11:07 AM PST
    Anyone have a link to the update I can't find a link?
    • 57 posts
    • 1165 posts
    February 14, 2018 11:15 AM PST

    The newsletter had me questioning the whole 'no elf clerics' thing again, also.  The only thing I can think of is that they don't have/believe in gods, or at the least, they don't believe they get any powers from their gods.  That would explain not having clerics or paladins.  Still, the new information we received today shows this to be an advanced society, and it seems to me that the -playstyle- of the cleric would fit them better than that of the shaman.  Either way, I'm digging these elves.

    • 40 posts
    February 14, 2018 11:23 AM PST
    Thanks mythic
    • Moderator
    • 9412 posts
    February 14, 2018 3:17 PM PST

    Moved to the Elves subforum as it is specifically class-related discussion.

    • 279 posts
    February 14, 2018 9:03 PM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    The newsletter had me questioning the whole 'no elf clerics' thing again, also.  The only thing I can think of is that they don't have/believe in gods, or at the least, they don't believe they get any powers from their gods.  That would explain not having clerics or paladins.  Still, the new information we received today shows this to be an advanced society, and it seems to me that the -playstyle- of the cleric would fit them better than that of the shaman.  Either way, I'm digging these elves.

    Great questions, everyone.

    Before I say anything else, I want to restate that we truly mean it when we say certain aspects of the game (in this case the current race/class roster) are still open to feedback -- and therefore alterations. Is that a guarantee that the Elves will have changes made by the time we launch? No. It does mean that we don't feel that we've nailed an aspect of development simply because we went public with it. In fact, going public is often an attempt to figure out if we've nailed it.

    I will say that I still feel good about the choices we've made on the Elves. To me it is authentically representative that Ember and Ashen have ceased being primarily motivated by religion, though they are not in any way irreligious. As their differences intensify, submitting to the divine commonality they share becomes less of an instinct. Each branch seeks justification by and on their own merits, and therefore -- not by any ill intent -- lose sensitivity to their gods, or giving them the "first look" for guidance. There is only so much devotion one heart can carry, and devotion to the Ember or Ashen tradition now supersedes even that of the S'iolyrii (Elven pantheon).

    Time will tell if that's smart design or forced design. When we have more of the in-game world of Faerthale completed, when you can truly feel what it's like to be an Elf, they will tell us if they are meant to be clerics and so forth. And reliably you all will as well ;)

    - JN

    • 2437 posts
    February 15, 2018 12:51 AM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    The newsletter had me questioning the whole 'no elf clerics' thing again, also.  The only thing I can think of is that they don't have/believe in gods, or at the least, they don't believe they get any powers from their gods.  That would explain not having clerics or paladins.  Still, the new information we received today shows this to be an advanced society, and it seems to me that the -playstyle- of the cleric would fit them better than that of the shaman.  Either way, I'm digging these elves.

    To me the lore is hinting at the elves actually not *wanting* to rely on the gods as a source of power or moral authority.  Perhaps their gods were culpable in the great cataclysm from their past?

    • 4539 posts
    February 15, 2018 3:27 AM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    The newsletter had me questioning the whole 'no elf clerics' thing again, also.  The only thing I can think of is that they don't have/believe in gods, or at the least, they don't believe they get any powers from their gods.  That would explain not having clerics or paladins.  Still, the new information we received today shows this to be an advanced society, and it seems to me that the -playstyle- of the cleric would fit them better than that of the shaman.  Either way, I'm digging these elves.

    I think it's pretty clear that elves have lost their bond with their deities due to the strife they've been through, so no clerics and paladins makes sense in that regard. For shamans, I think it's important to not really think of them as the primal witch doctors that we may be accustomed to in most games. The way I read it, the Pantheon shaman seems almost more like a genealogist. They study the past and can see the future and use that knowledge to leverage their magic. They're probably much more interested in the timeline than fetishes.

    But also keep in mind that almost no society is completed homogenous. While the majority may be more sophisticated, there will always be some that feel compelled to "abandon the norms of their civilization," as the Shaman class description puts it.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at February 15, 2018 3:27 AM PST
    • 1165 posts
    February 15, 2018 6:22 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    I think it's pretty clear that elves have lost their bond with their deities due to the strife they've been through, so no clerics and paladins makes sense in that regard. For shamans, I think it's important to not really think of them as the primal witch doctors that we may be accustomed to in most games. The way I read it, the Pantheon shaman seems almost more like a genealogist. They study the past and can see the future and use that knowledge to leverage their magic. They're probably much more interested in the timeline than fetishes.

    But also keep in mind that almost no society is completed homogenous. While the majority may be more sophisticated, there will always be some that feel compelled to "abandon the norms of their civilization," as the Shaman class description puts it.

     

    Yes, but by the same rule it's also unlikely that -all- of the healers in this advanced society would take this more primitive approach.  I could see this Elven society having 'shamans' who focus on ancestry, though the Shaman Class Description page gives me an overall vibe that doesn't seem to fit with what we've just learned of the Elves.  Still, if you look at the humans, who can do everything, then an Elf Shaman is no less likely than a human Shaman.  It just seems to me that this Elven society would also include some more focused healers who would behave more like the Cleric class plays, regardless of the lore behind it all.  The way it reads and the way it actually feels are different things.  Like Istuulamae said, we'll just have to wait until we can examine the totality of the circumstances.  I'm sure they'll get it right, whether that means  Elf Clerics/Paladins or not.

    • 3025 posts
    February 15, 2018 3:18 PM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    Yes, but by the same rule it's also unlikely that -all- of the healers in this advanced society would take this more primitive approach.  I could see this Elven society having 'shamans' who focus on ancestry, though the Shaman Class Description page gives me an overall vibe that doesn't seem to fit with what we've just learned of the Elves.  Still, if you look at the humans, who can do everything, then an Elf Shaman is no less likely than a human Shaman.  It just seems to me that this Elven society would also include some more focused healers who would behave more like the Cleric class plays, regardless of the lore behind it all.  The way it reads and the way it actually feels are different things.  Like Istuulamae said, we'll just have to wait until we can examine the totality of the circumstances.  I'm sure they'll get it right, whether that means  Elf Clerics/Paladins or not.

    I just take it that Elven society did/does include more focused healers that might behave more like clerics, but they developed as druids. Whatever old communion they had with a benevolent god(s) in the past imparted healing and protection via nature magics/the land itself instead of strict codes and edicts that beseech blessings and power from the heavens like cleric. 

    • 1165 posts
    February 15, 2018 4:39 PM PST

    Maybe.  We'll have to see how Druids end up being in game, I guess, but the way they were described by Ceythos doesn't make me think they'd be more focused on healing than Shamans:

     

    "Our Druids are about the cycles of nature, the dance between predator and prey. Their powers draw from the forces of nature, like Lightning, Earthquakes, Wildfires, as well as the restorative and transformative sides of Nature. Think of them less as paragons of peace and some ideal of what Nature could or should be, and rather as reflecting what Nature is. Ogres fit this space as the wolf in the weeds."

     

    This is just a single line taken from the Cleric class page, but one can see the difference between the way Clerics are described and the way Shamans/Druids are described:

     

    "To his core, the Cleric is focused on healing himself and his allies, and in this role he has no equal."

     

    I just feel that this Elven society would have individuals with that focus, and that they would play more like Clerics.  Still, I'm open to the possibility that when I get to Faerthale, it totally feels right without Elf Clerics and Paladins.  We shall see.

    • 3025 posts
    February 15, 2018 4:58 PM PST

    I'm hoping they have since rethought that or that it only means they have the biggest heals but not the best in terms of speed/mana efficiency. I really don't want another game with "best in role" classes or cleric will be picked over other healers nine times out of ten. 

    • 1165 posts
    February 15, 2018 5:51 PM PST

    I actually prefer Clerics healing best, warriors tanking best, and Enchanters CCing best.  It's tough, because if you allow Shamans and Druids to heal as well as Clerics, what do you give Clerics to make them attractive?  If Clerics just heal, and Druids and Shamans heal as well as Clerics, but also have a bunch of other things they can do, no one will want to play Cleric.  I just don't think classes that can fill more than one role should excel at either/any of them.  I think most Shaman and Druid players are used to having some versatility, and so they choose those classes over the straight healer.  People will have their preferences.  I'm okay with some classes being more popular than others.   I think the way to do it is have it so the classes that aren't 'best in role' can still perform as well as the 'best in role' class, but with more effort/difficulty on the part of the player.

    I do think you're onto something, though.  It would make sense for Druids and Shamans to each have a healing path if each class has two paths.  Those Elves who are focused on healing would obviously choose these paths, and that could be the solution here and allow Elven society to feel right without Clerics.  These Shamans and Druids would still have the core abilities from their other paths, though.  If Clerics had a path for pure healing and a path for protection, the combination of these two paths could allow them to heal more easily than Shamans and Druids, who might only have one path devoted to keeping people alive.

    • 4539 posts
    February 16, 2018 3:21 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    I'm hoping they have since rethought that or that it only means they have the biggest heals but not the best in terms of speed/mana efficiency. I really don't want another game with "best in role" classes or cleric will be picked over other healers nine times out of ten. 

    It pretty much just means they have the biggest heals - the highest pure direct healing throughput, not necessarily that they are the "best healers." They may be the best in some situations where sheer high numbers are preferred, but there will also be plenty of situations in which the support style of a Shaman or a Druid will be preferred.

    • 9 posts
    February 17, 2018 6:45 PM PST

    First of all, I'm loving the game updates and can't wait to jump into the beta. Couldn't afford more.. however..

    Yes, elves with no clerics or paladins is kind of a change. The ashen/ember/middle of the road elves are kind of thing, but it's not that exciting. I was hoping to see more innovation on the classic elf. I mean, most games you either see the straight up D&D version of high elf, wood elf, and drow - or you have WoW's weird night elf, blood elf variants. After reading about the halflings and what I thought was a very innovative interpretation - I was super excited to see what you had in store for elves, but was left with a kind of /meh feeling. I feel a bit like you guys played it safe with them. The art work looks great, and yes - I'll probably play an elf(or maybe halfing), but I would have liked to see a deviation that was more exciting.. Just my 2 cents. 

    And still, having said all of that - I still love what you guys are doing and am dying to play the game. I just wanted to offer some constructive feedback/opinion. 

     


    This post was edited by sleepyjbear at February 17, 2018 6:46 PM PST