Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

No random loot boxes please!

    • 53 posts
    November 28, 2017 9:45 PM PST

    EVE online offers a PLEX system, but everyone is on the same server. Overall, I am sure that if Pantheon would create a server that offered PLEX that some people would try it out. My guess would be that the retention/turnover rate would be high, but it would attract a certain player type.

    For years, I have heard the fear of attracting gold farmers and I always go back to; the player base should gather the good and best gear and spells via drops and not via purchase. Make crafting more of an add-on for upgrading gear instead of a producer of lower or mid tier gear or selling food and drink, etc. I was always more of a fan of non-trade gear, except within an account. Pretty simple way to fight gold farmers, if there really is nothing to buy with gold, no real need for gold farmers.

    Let’s understand that VR needs to make money to keep the game going and right now that model appears to be the sub model, which I support 100% for various reasons, but one thing that EVE online does, that I like and it makes money for the company is it sells ship skins. These skins do not provide any bonuses, they just add a little flair to the game. So, I would not be against VR offering a service like this for armor, coat-of-arms colors, design, etc. It does not impact the game, except maybe a performance hit, and puts cash into VR’s coffers to keep going.

    • 136 posts
    November 28, 2017 9:47 PM PST

    Aradune said:

    One could argue there is a second positive, that being revenue for the developer

    There is still the option of cosmetic (and cosmetic ONLY) $ shop.

    I'm sure few people would mind a cosmetic shop, which would provide time-limited cosmetics, based on the lore events.

    For example, if people celebrate the harvest season in the lore of pantheon, then open a cosmetic shop with harvest-themed costumes during that season.

     

    There are many non-pay-to-win, lore-friendly possibilities to get monetization on a game, without breaking the ethics.

    Don't you think ?

    • 1757 posts
    November 28, 2017 10:01 PM PST

    Skelos said:

    For years, I have heard the fear of attracting gold farmers and I always go back to; the player base should gather the good and best gear and spells via drops and not via purchase. Make crafting more of an add-on for upgrading gear instead of a producer of lower or mid tier gear or selling food and drink, etc. I was always more of a fan of non-trade gear, except within an account. Pretty simple way to fight gold farmers, if there really is nothing to buy with gold, no real need for gold farmers.

    I get where you're coming from here, but I can tell you flat out that any game where crafting is relegated to add-ons, augments, or consumables is a game I won't play for very long.  Nor, I think, would many other people who really enjoy crafting.  Crafters in general want to make real items that people wear and use - not just the stuff you tack on to your drops.

    That being said, I think some of the keys to a healthy in-game economy (gold sellers or not) lie in both ensuring there's strong diversity and that people have choices of what to wear/use, whether it's crafted or dropped, insuring that the most unique/valuable gear isn't tradable, so that it's still unique/valuable, and removing the secondary market (bind on equip) so that you don't flood the economy with hand-me-downs over time.  So I don't completely disagree with you.  Just about the crafting bit :P


    This post was edited by Nephele at November 28, 2017 10:17 PM PST
    • 607 posts
    November 28, 2017 10:02 PM PST

    bobwinner said:

    Aradune said:

    One could argue there is a second positive, that being revenue for the developer

    There is still the option of cosmetic (and cosmetic ONLY) $ shop.

    I'm sure few people would mind a cosmetic shop, which would provide time-limited cosmetics, based on the lore events.

    For example, if people celebrate the harvest season in the lore of pantheon, then open a cosmetic shop with harvest-themed costumes during that season.

     

    There are many non-pay-to-win, lore-friendly possibilities to get monetization on a game, without breaking the ethics.

    Don't you think ?

    Honestly, don't know -- have certainly thought about it considerably.  Even purely cosmetic gear for RL money crosses the line for some.  Perhaps, again, on an alternate ruleset server only?  We've discussed here on the forums before but I don't feel like we reached a consensus.  I feel like I could argue on both sides of the issue effectively :)

    • 1757 posts
    November 28, 2017 10:06 PM PST

    Rather than a cash shop (which as many have pointed out is a slippery slope that we gamers have learned not to trust), I think what I would prefer is RL merchandise.  Granted, it's not virtual bits so it's not free, but I'll spend money on soundtracks, figurines, hoodies, and so forth - and so will lots of other people.  It's also a good way to advertise if you can do it :)

    That said I think the scale of evils goes like this:

    0 evil

    -----> Cosmetic items in cash shop

    -----> Minor gameplay items in cash shop (XP bonuses, race changes, etc)

    -----> Gametime currency systems

    -----> Major gameplay items in cash shop (usable equipment, buffs, etc)

    -----> Unique, powerful gameplay items in cash shop (purchaseable epics, etc)

    -----> Loot Boxes

    Max evil

    • 607 posts
    November 28, 2017 10:21 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    Skelos said:

    For years, I have heard the fear of attracting gold farmers and I always go back to; the player base should gather the good and best gear and spells via drops and not via purchase. Make crafting more of an add-on for upgrading gear instead of a producer of lower or mid tier gear or selling food and drink, etc. I was always more of a fan of non-trade gear, except within an account. Pretty simple way to fight gold farmers, if there really is nothing to buy with gold, no real need for gold farmers.

    I get where you're coming from here, I can tell you flat out that any game where crafting is relegated to add-ons, augments, or consumables is a game I won't play for very long.  Nor, I think, would many other people who really enjoy crafters.  Crafters in general want to make real items that people wear and use - not just the stuff you tack on to your drops.

    That being said, I think some of the keys to a healthy in-game economy (gold sellers or not) lie in both ensuring there's strong diversity and that people have choices of what to wear/use, whether it's crafted or dropped, insuring that the most unique/valuable gear isn't tradable, so that it's still unique/valuable, and removing the secondary market (bind on equip) so that you don't flood the economy with hand-me-downs over time.  So I don't completely disagree with you.  Just about the crafting bit :P

    Without going into a ton of detail, as the crafting system is still being worked on and some of the fundamentals are still TBD, I think if we can create a true interdependence and symbiosis between adventuring and crafting we can avoid the negatives.   If the crafter must have components dropped like any other rare item from a mob in order to make non-consumable permanent items/products, and if to augment drops the adventurer needs the crafter... then it can work.   I agree that crafting needs to be able to create actual items of use and in demand for the adventurer.   

    Crafting consumables and making consumables like potions needed by adventurers when taking on the more difficult encounters is a big part of our crafting system.

    Crafters being able to augment some items is also key.

    Minimizing having to make items no-trade or bind-on-equip is also a key part of our desire for a vibrant player driven economy.  Combined with local banks and such then fits into our desire to see regional price differences and player merchants moving merchandise across the world for profit (the old Silk Road example).

    But I would agree that limiting crafting products to consumables and augments is too confining.   They need to be able to craft permanent items too.  One way we *may* go, though, is making some aspect or type of the crafted item different than the dropped item -- this to minimize the issue of crafted products competing with dropped items, hopefully avoiding the scenario where we introduce a new, valuable and desired dropped item but by doing so we obsolete a crafted item.  And vice versa, we'd like to avoid giving crafters a new recipe to create a desirable item which then makes a similar dropped item suddenly obsolete as well.  Perhaps crafted items are limited to consumables, augments, and containers and dropped items limited to wearables and crafting components?

     

    • 272 posts
    November 28, 2017 11:09 PM PST

    As many have already stated, this type of system does taint a game in ways that reflect negatively on my own gaming experience.  Any type of RMT other than straight up subs brings in gold/gear farmers that, in my experience, have always watched out for #1 above all else and rarely, if ever, show any concern for others' game experience; often KS'ing, ninja looting, permafarming entire zones.  

    What do you think about rare, non-raid drops, that are available if you spend enough time and energy in game, available from a cash shop?  What if they were no drop, and marginally weaker than the real thing?  What if it had to drop in game first (for any character on your account) before you could purchase it? It is still pay to win of course , but you are monetizing time saved (YAY i dont have to camp an FBSS again for my 6th melee character)!

    Games are expensive, and monetizations are a huge topic right now. Why? How does a team of 15 maintain a game AND simultaneously add more titles to its portfolio without sacrificing something along the way? Are all future games going to be crowd funded until they reach into that angel investors heart and pull out 20 mil to get it to alpha? Are all game devs relegated to "starving artist" status just so we can keep playing?          

    My bottom line here is this. I dont enjoy playing games that foster communities that feed off of RMT because i feel it reduces the value of my passion and commitment to playing.  I don't like the direction my gaming hobby is moving, but I get why it needs to move in that direction. But, above all else, I want  need an MMO that has the support to keep chugging along without having to worry that the lights might go out next month.  I am a strong NO on cash shops and real money time tokens because I have yet to see a well executed, positive experience.  

    • 80 posts
    November 28, 2017 11:26 PM PST

    Hell NO, pls!

    • 239 posts
    November 29, 2017 1:00 AM PST

    Sounds like "PLEX" is something that is more then just a thought.

    Like everyone said RL money items that can be traded in game for items/gold make it a currency item. I think this turns into a vicious circle: camp high value item, buy PLEX, 2 accounts, camp easier, buy more PLEX, sell offline for RL cash. We all know this will slowly turn into a source of income for a number of players. This will turn the game into a money making machine.

    I think if this is truely a system in the game to help players with subscriptions I think these itesm need to be Lore. Maybe even a time Lore, can only have possesion of 1 every week or so.

    I feel this could help with players hording PLEX and selling bundles at a time, or gathering for multiple accounts.

    • 495 posts
    November 29, 2017 1:08 AM PST

    I'ts a NO for me, on the PLEX system, in a game with very few No-trade items it can lead to pay to win or pay to shortcut and ruin the sense of progression and accomplishment.

    If implementing the system was a necessisty, I would like to see it done this way:

    - PLEX items restricted to a special ruleset server

    - No transfer allowed to other servers.

    - Real money PLEX purchase limited to once a month per account.

    • 1691 posts
    November 29, 2017 1:20 AM PST

    I feel like I've been trolled...

     

    • 607 posts
    November 29, 2017 1:32 AM PST

    jpedrote said:

    I'ts a NO for me, on the PLEX system, in a game with very few No-trade items it can lead to pay to win or pay to shortcut and ruin the sense of progression and accomplishment.

    If implementing the system was a necessisty, I would like to see it done this way:

    - PLEX items restricted to a special ruleset server

    - No transfer allowed to other servers.

    - Real money PLEX purchase limited to once a month per account.

    I hear you and others who have posted -- like I said was genuinely curious as to what our community thought, what's been happening lately with MMOs that use such a system, and that if some variant of such a system was something that could make sense in Pantheon, perhaps on an Alternate Ruleset Server.  Many people responded, talked about their experiences, and I became quite convinced that, even if only on one server, it just doesn't fit within the spirt of the game, our tenets, etc.  Even tweaked or modified it simply could and should not be made to fit.

    What's important though, so I'll re-state it, is this:  We want to be able to bring ideas to the forums, have constructive conversations, etc. without people taking it beyond the hypothetical or jumping to conclusions, or like one poster, apparently offended that I even brought it up.  Bah!  This community is the most amazing I've ever interacted with and we are certainly capable of discussing just about anything without panicking or jumping to conclusions, etc.   You guys wanted to be involved with this game from very early on, and we've always wanted that too.   That means dialog and discussion, transparency, mutual respect, and interaction that is passionate yet with emotions in-check. 

    Now we are chugging along, making great progress, yet there are systems that don't make sense to dive into and implement until we're further along.  So now is the time to chat about them when it makes sense to.  Then in Alpha and Beta you guys experience them, we make tweaks and changes, and it either becomes something amazing and a product of VR working with the Pantheon community, or it gets yanked.

     

    • 38 posts
    November 29, 2017 2:04 AM PST

    Well, at first i am happy to see this discussion here. This always was in my mind when i thought at the future of this game: How many microtransaction will be implemented and when does it go F2P.

    The future will answer this anyway, but my personal opinion is based on my experience: When you allow to buy stuff for extra cash, you cant stop it anymore. People who are into the goldfarmer business will find a way to get a workaround... always and anytime.

    Another point for me: If some goldfarmer camping a spot for cash and defend it with training or wahtever 24/7 bot farming script it ruins the fun. I spent my freetime to play games, i dont want to have a business model ingame for real cash. It ruins my personal fun and i would stop playing. I would rather pay a higher monthly sub fee instead of cash shops.

    If you dont have the time to play as often as others, who cares? Make friends, friends help you to level up. Friends help you to get gear, thats social community, thats the spirit i thought this game will have. Not only to make friends to beat the group content and stuff, make friends to help each others in all aspects of the game. As i said, do it completely or let it be.

    • 71 posts
    November 29, 2017 3:11 AM PST

    I'll just keep this short, since I have now deleted my thoughts to this topic several times in the last 30 minutes since my original comment and reading everyone elses response after that.. I'll gladly test the game, I'll play my free 6 months and sadly leave the game after that.

    • 353 posts
    November 29, 2017 3:53 AM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."

     

     

    YES ! Do this... Krono are a great way for some people to pay for their account time. It also gives partial control of the after market to VR instead of a site like playerauctions.

     

    I'd go so far as to make this the norm and have servers without it as the alternate rule servers.

     

    What if selling Kronos could fund a large development project that we wouldn't have otherwise received ?

     

    Thanks in advance

    Kiz~


    This post was edited by Angrykiz at November 29, 2017 4:07 AM PST
    • 1690 posts
    November 29, 2017 6:08 AM PST

    Thanks for putting yourself infront of the tough questions, Brad.

    the ONLY scheme I see that is somewnat close to this, where the value is maintained to an extent, and it benefits the purchaser is the Disney Vacation Club.Plus there is a vibrant secondary market that is not ridiculously inflated- yes bklackout dates still apply.

    Its the ridiculous inflation ( or mudflation if you will) in the secondary market that I think is the key issue.

    Why not go to a theme park example, heh

     

    Take a look at EQ kronos. By this example: if I sub, I get roughly 420 loyalty points a week. For about 1500 loyaly points or a months worth of loyalty points, I can buy a bag of plat. The bag of plat nets around 14k-15k plat. Therefore it stands to reason a monthly subscriptioin is worth 15k plat- using your example. If I were to buy a Krono I should be able to pay 15k plat in game currency for it. How come it does not sell for 15k PLat on FV?

    A month of loyalty points = a monthly subscription

    A monthly subscription = a Krono

    therefore a month of loyalty points = a Krono

    A month of loyalty points = $15.00 U.S = A Krono......but this isn't what its selling for which makes me wonder "who's the idiot?" or, who is buying art for investment.

    Let me clarify: Who is the idiot paying more than 15k plat for a Krono, when they could get the same amount just by subbing (why bother with the effort to grind plat)

    College Art history professor said never buy art for investment, rather buy it because you like it (cool association with antiques roadshow and the rhino horn cups- the guy just liked them and collected them)

    People that buy art for investment are relying on the "greater fool theory" which is the anticipation that there will be a greater fool than I, who wil buy this art the future for a higher price from me.

    So don't buy art for investment. You like the Gauguin? have the cash? Go for it. But dont buy the Pollock because you think it will go up in value besides their huge and hard to store if not hung, and if you are going to hang it, might as well hang it in your house and if you're going to be looking at it every day- best it be something you likie to look at.

    warning: tl:dr ahead

    The regulatory banking side of me would like to bring up as some mental ticklers, the idea of 80K watches, The Dickens character Uriah Heep and his "portable property",the Mob, Fed Reg 23A and B or "covered transactions" and  Japanese pachinko parlors.

    Portable property and the Mob. Blackout in NYC, people looting huge appliances. group comments; thats awful. I am at a point in life where I am very frustrated and say to heck with it, if it happened again I would do it, too gosh darn it!. Guy who lived in a neighborhood where Mob folks were alleged to live quietly says: jewelry. you dont want to wrestle the big box items, just crack a jewelry store. You can fit half a mil in diamonds in your pocket. Bust up the rings and melt down the gold, sell the gems seperately.The russians will always buy the gold slag.  

    Japanese pachinko parlors: You buy the balls. You play, you win more balls. You exchange balls for plushys- then conveniently right next door there is a store that will buy those very same plushy's! and advertise how much yen they will pay you for that plushy. its a way they got around the gambling rules/laws.

    Covered transactions: complex issue but generally speaking money laundering is hiding the transfer of cash through another vehicle or account, or "covering" the exchange. in the pachinko parlor example the plushy is the cover.

    If I can exchange drug cash for Krono, and then exchange that Krono for Plat, and then exchange that Plat for cash- my only question as a drug cartel member will be "You canget THAT much plat for krono?how much can you handle? 'cos I got alot how many krono's can you sell a month" Ordinarily, you would get maybe 15-20% on the dollar from a fence if times are good, ( one dollar of dirty money gets you 15cents of clean money- you;ve seen "Breaking bad") If there was a way to increase that percentage to say 80 ot 89pct even for a small amount- say through an online game with an lready established RMT market for real money for plat? - PlayerAuction is still going, right?- heck sign me up! and make sure that percentage stays high. If it drops you will need to make up the difference, (I say, brandishing pliers threateningly) I exchange my millions of plat for Cash. money has been cleaned twice or "layered"

    So, why watches? apparently the secondary market is practically one for one. you buy and 80k watch, you can sell it for 80k....globally and on demand. no waiting  Unlike the time it sould take to fence your pocket full of jewelry- but as fast as the japanese plushy stores  . https://www.chrono24.com/

    The name on the link, is just icing.

    So I am an insurgent, encuraged and compelled to spread the word but need fincancing- I come from an oil rich country and "typically", "My kind" spend lots of dough on frivolous things,like watches. I get a briefcase full and head to whatever country I am insurging, sell the watches and I am funded to evangelize the locals and buy fertilizer for future endeavors.

     

    Buy a time share instead.

    then try to sell that time share at the same price you bought it. and if you dont use it, try to sell that time back to the RE agent.

     

    *edit* the thing about Fed refg 23A & B is, if you legitimately did not know, iots not a viable defense. You can hire the best lawyer in the world and if your charged with fed 23A &B? that lawyer will look at you and say "see you in 5 years" If you can put cash in, get something else like pixels, and then exchange those pixels for cash again? That has the potential to be a covered transaction and a way to layer for money alundering.

    I recall a leader of a top end guild all knew he was known for RMT for all chars, and items - he was a lawyer- he made alot of money not sure how much. to the ppoint that he sold the idea so SoE and they paid for his stay at a fan convention and soon after SoE became alot of selling items. Was he a early version of "better call saul"? Usually the earlier you get into a intentional money layering scheme the more money you make. Get a foreign regional company or better yet bank to stand behind it?  and you can make tons more.

    kinda like the movie "the big Short" where banks were packaging bad mortgages, but because it had their name on it, the security looked really good and was better rated. Because BankA out their name on the packaged bad mortgages, the security was ranked as if it was the banks, and not the bad mortgages. so what became lousy,was suddenly gold.

    If I was that guy? that lawyer?- get out now cover your tracks. omg! so THIS is how the bad rap for lawyers got started, this kind of thng, yeah? 


    This post was edited by Manouk at November 30, 2017 11:15 AM PST
    • 1202 posts
    November 29, 2017 6:38 AM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me ask a follow-up question then:

    Were we to do this on an alternate ruleset server, not allow any transfers of anything to other servers (as mentioned above), if your job was to design it, how would you do it?

    The goal would be to stop gold farming.

    The *only* item purchasable for real money would be PLEX item.

    This sort of goes back to idea vs implementation -- can such a system be designed to minimize the negatives you've brought up and maximize the positives?  Could it be designed to do more good than harm?

    This is my firsthand experience with this and its from EQ and Kronos. For a new player on a established server this type of thing is useful because you can buy a few with real money then sell for plat and get items for your character.

    However, Gold Farmers will still be gold farmers and they will still sell gold and in additional to these items. They will camp items of value for the plat value then buy krono in game or offer in-game services for krono. Daybreak sells krono for around $18 dollars where as the other people may collect them then resell them for less. But this isn't a problem because krono can only be created by someone buying the full retail price and Daybreak gets all the money. If someone wants to resell them after the fact then Daybreak isn;t losing money as it was paid for at full retial price to begin with.

    I don't think a special server will do any good as it will become vacant and the ROI you would want from the effort might not be worth it. If it was to be used it would have to be across all servers to water down the people who will sell them outside the game.

    Would I buy some? If i needed plat sure. I also like xp potions.

     


    This post was edited by Aich at November 29, 2017 11:05 AM PST
    • 1690 posts
    November 29, 2017 6:45 AM PST

    Sorry to add,

    Real life example of what the evolution of Krono did was to create the following social dynamic- this really happened and like 4 mos ago on EQ, FV server.

    "Rogue LFG!"

    "come join our group! we can use your DPS!"

    "OK I will, how much will you be paying me for my time and DPS?"

    "?- um sorry, we didnt realize you wanted money"

    and then..

    "Paying 50,000p for help with DH HA's PST for group invite"

    and also

    "WTS powerleving, 100K per level, must have (expansion)*

    and also

    "WTB powerleveling 75-80, pst with cost"

     

    I am like- what happened to LFG? grouping is powerleveling, right? Want to buy this huge Pollock? its a good investment.

     

     

    • 1637 posts
    November 29, 2017 7:00 AM PST

    Aradune said:

    Tsanarith said:

    Are you meaning like Plat in to token Item or ingame Purchase for cash for the token?

     

    Not sure -- it's been done a little differently depending on the game.  It came up in a discussion recently.  My immediate reaction was 'NO!'.  But then after more thought and dialog I thought there was at least enough merit and precedence in other games to bring it to the community and get your reaction.  To be clear:  totally hypothetical at this point -- would love your opinions and experiences (if any) in MMOs that used such a system.  

    Heh, this is a touchy subject for me, becuase if it what im thinking EQ has this system, and what i dont like about it is that people start selling items for these items instead of plat, becuase as people loot money, selling items and such and more cash flow gets brought into the world we are creating the value of the "item" becuase more and more valuable, and they cuase other high value items become so expensive, or only being able to be bought through this so called item and could make it unreachable for people either not being able to afford the item with in game money, and not wanting to spend real cash to get it.  the biggest thing i have against it is that it makes people who barely try to do anything to make money to get a ton of it and able to max out there traeskilling with very ittle effort, which i think might be my biggest concern.

    • 1202 posts
    November 29, 2017 7:01 AM PST

    I'd pay for a limited GM account or Guide account :). I think a Guide who is actually paying to be one would be more legit then a volunteer. Run around ,watch people and film it for VR submission for hacking etc. Or an extra subscription fee that you can pick an NPC to log in as and hunt players. Maybe 5 tokens a week to log in as a NPC.

    • 71 posts
    November 29, 2017 7:10 AM PST

    I am more concerned that any time real-world money transactions come into a game whether it be loot crates/game time/cosmetics people will find a way to monopolize on it. IMO when some see the game as a job or are incentivized by monetary means it robs from the social aspect you wish to encourage. People don't care about people when they care about their profit.

    • 892 posts
    November 29, 2017 7:11 AM PST

    If the over inflation of money can be staved off, then gold farmers and those that use plat to pay for power leveling and all the other negitive mechanics we've seen used should almost come to a stop.

    The first time I should hear a ting of money from a corpes is when I'm close to mid level in the game.  When mobs start dropping 50 plat per encounter or items that are sold to merchance for 100 plat is when the game turns into a pay to win regardless of whats done to stop it.  

    The issue here is, mobs will forever respawn.  They will forever have something on them that can earn plat.  Making plat a finite amount available per player on the server could be a way to stave this.  But, man, that would be hard to do.

    • 14 posts
    November 29, 2017 7:25 AM PST

    This would affect everyone and other servers too, even if it was on alternate ruleset server! How could we track world firsts on raiding targets? We would have one server with pay-to-winners that could buy power and would probably have gear advantage compared to other guilds on normal servers. This means the world firsts could likely come from the "P2W" servers. Even if it didn't affect that much gear wise, it destroys the competitive spirit between servers, since people on normal servers wouldn't respect their world firsts, and yet at the same time it would suck to be 2nd in the world.

    So it would destroy competitive spirit of raiding between guilds. Please do not do this. Not even on alternate ruleset servers. I feel very strongly about it.


    This post was edited by Veltan at January 9, 2018 8:29 AM PST
    • 1757 posts
    November 29, 2017 7:39 AM PST

    Aradune said:

    Without going into a ton of detail, as the crafting system is still being worked on and some of the fundamentals are still TBD, I think if we can create a true interdependence and symbiosis between adventuring and crafting we can avoid the negatives.   If the crafter must have components dropped like any other rare item from a mob in order to make non-consumable permanent items/products, and if to augment drops the adventurer needs the crafter... then it can work.   I agree that crafting needs to be able to create actual items of use and in demand for the adventurer.   

    Crafting consumables and making consumables like potions needed by adventurers when taking on the more difficult encounters is a big part of our crafting system.

    Crafters being able to augment some items is also key.

    Minimizing having to make items no-trade or bind-on-equip is also a key part of our desire for a vibrant player driven economy.  Combined with local banks and such then fits into our desire to see regional price differences and player merchants moving merchandise across the world for profit (the old Silk Road example).

    But I would agree that limiting crafting products to consumables and augments is too confining.   They need to be able to craft permanent items too.  One way we *may* go, though, is making some aspect or type of the crafted item different than the dropped item -- this to minimize the issue of crafted products competing with dropped items, hopefully avoiding the scenario where we introduce a new, valuable and desired dropped item but by doing so we obsolete a crafted item.  And vice versa, we'd like to avoid giving crafters a new recipe to create a desirable item which then makes a similar dropped item suddenly obsolete as well.  Perhaps crafted items are limited to consumables, augments, and containers and dropped items limited to wearables and crafting components?

    Thanks Brad!  I like the balanced approach and I'm onboard with the desire to balance between loot and crafting, and not have one detract from the other.  Cutting out entire categories of items doesn't feel right though.  So for example, I feel like there should be both crafted swords and dropped swords.  The difference, maybe, should be that only dropped swords can carry bane bonuses or procs.  You could take that a step further and say that bane bonuses or procs could be naturally occurring on the dropped sword, or could be added by a crafter through some kind of re-forging mechanism, that only works if the sword is old/magical enough to survive the process.  I feel like that would work out pretty well in practice. 

    There would be demand for normal crafted items, there would still be demand for loot, and at the higher end of the game, crafters would still be needed to enhance/reforge the loot drops for maximum effect.

    I could probably write all day about crafting but I don't want to derail the thread from its original topic.  Thank you for the response though :)

    • 331 posts
    November 29, 2017 7:44 AM PST

    Thank you, Brad, for coming to discuss this with us. Many others have described well how PLeX tokens can have a tremendously bad impact on the economy, culture, and community of an MMO. The system always devolves into pay-to-win because, fundamentally, it provides an easy way to convert real dollars into game currency. 

     

    I just want to add two thoughts here.

     

    Brad mentioned that some people are adamantly opposed to cosmetic gear. I am definitely one of the posters who took an extremely strong position against cosmetic gear and cosmetic-gear cash shops. Since Brad alluded to that segment of players, I just wanted to say that PLeX systems are far, far more detrimental to the ideal of an immersive virtual world than cosmetic gear (barring the completely absurd bikini Warriors etc.).  If the company needed to raise revenue through any kind of micro transaction, please let it be no-trade cosmetics and not by using a PLeX system. I'm not saying to go with cosmetic gear or cosmetic cash shops, but just saying that's far more tolerable than PLeX, as the anti-PLeX posts in this thread seem to indicate. 

     

    Next is the question of RMT and how PLEX is justified by some companies as a way to generate revenue for a game creator and not for third party RMT outfits. Before you resort to PLeX, I wish you would consider another way to cause RMT money to be diverted from third parties to VR. This will sound extreme, and this is not legal advice of course, but I hope you would consider talking with your legal advisor about the contractual mechanisms you can use to make RMT unprofitable in your game. Perhaps you can make RMT a breach of contract and set the ground rules for recovering the money obtained by RMTers who breach the contract. For example, mandatory arbitration in a specific forum, with a fee-shifting provision, consent to certain discovery, and a specific remedy of disgorgement of RMT profits, would be crushing to anyone who is caught in lathe scale RMT. Maybe you could hire attorneys on a contingent fee to handle this kind of enforcement. Is this extreme? Yes, absolutely. Would it be a challenge to enforce in some jurisdictions? Yes, but not impossible. Bottom line is that with the right contract provisions and fee agreements, you could (at a low up-front cost) make it extremely risky to engage in any large scale RMT. With disgorgement you could potentially turn a profit on enforcing your ban on RMT. See the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act prosecution regime. Combine this with traditional tools (banning) and you have a chance against RMT without incurring huge labor costs. Will this eliminate RMT completely? No, but I wish you would consider something along these lines. No need to play nice with the third party RMT cottage industry. They are a threat to your business. 


    This post was edited by Gnog at November 29, 2017 7:59 AM PST