Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Option to add polls for our threads.

    • 3405 posts
    January 30, 2017 5:05 PM PST

    When I searched the word "poll" I found one thread that was asking for the ability to poll the community on their age.  6 or 7 pages later and a bunch of people responded to the poll and the results were posted.  What I am asking for, specifically, is the ability to add a poll to any topic or discussion.  I think it would be a great way to see where the community stands on a given issue and also allow people to have an idea as to how the majority of players feel without having to read every single post on some of the longer threads.  Will this ever be possible?  There have been many occassions where I would present a specific question and a few options to choose from, but very rarely do players actually follow the format.  I think having a poll option would be helpful in regards to keeping a thread on point, and also with giving the community a stronger voice on how they feel about a specific issue.  There are a lot of hot-topic discussions going on right now and I really wish some of them had a poll.  I think it would be helpful for developer purposes as well as they would be able to quickly identify potential ideas or problems that the community are particularly passionate about.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 30, 2017 5:09 PM PST
    • 150 posts
    January 30, 2017 6:11 PM PST

    Kilson says, "...we are moving away from SocialEngine forums to vBulletin forums and we will announce it when it is close to being ready, in the meantime, we continue to work hard on the backend, permissions, eCommece and security of the new forum solution to get it up to standards and ready for large volumes of traffic."

     

    Maybe polls will be an option when the vBulletin Forums go live.

    • 1303 posts
    January 30, 2017 6:49 PM PST

    Polls in a setting like this can be pretty misleading. You're polling the vocal minority of players, and trying to apply it to the desire of the target audience is frankly a bit counterproductive. Just because a poll says that 80% of respondants want instancing doesnt mean that the target audience of Pantheon does. It just adds another layer of "well the poll said!" flame to the fire of conversation, leading to people who provide logical thought out arguments being disregarded because the poll already "settled" the discussion. Even the number of people who read and paid for the ability to post is a far different number than the people willing to read, think and discuss a topic. Clicking yes/no/option3 is easy. Being engaged isnt. 

    • 1713 posts
    January 30, 2017 7:05 PM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    Polls in a setting like this can be pretty misleading. You're polling the vocal minority of players, and trying to apply it to the desire of the target audience is frankly a bit counterproductive. Just because a poll says that 80% of respondants want instancing doesnt mean that the target audience of Pantheon does. It just adds another layer of "well the poll said!" flame to the fire of conversation, leading to people who provide logical thought out arguments being disregarded because the poll already "settled" the discussion. Even the number of people who read and paid for the ability to post is a far different number than the people willing to read, think and discuss a topic. Clicking yes/no/option3 is easy. Being engaged isnt. 

    To add to this, polls are hard to do effectively, because frequently a person's answer does not fit into the options provided.  I prefer the current way of doing things which requires a person to voice their actual opinion instead of choosing the closest option to their opinion.


    This post was edited by kelenin at January 30, 2017 7:05 PM PST
    • 3405 posts
    January 30, 2017 7:17 PM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    Polls in a setting like this can be pretty misleading. You're polling the vocal minority of players, and trying to apply it to the desire of the target audience is frankly a bit counterproductive. Just because a poll says that 80% of respondants want instancing doesnt mean that the target audience of Pantheon does. It just adds another layer of "well the poll said!" flame to the fire of conversation, leading to people who provide logical thought out arguments being disregarded because the poll already "settled" the discussion. Even the number of people who read and paid for the ability to post is a far different number than the people willing to read, think and discuss a topic. Clicking yes/no/option3 is easy. Being engaged isnt. 


    We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.  I never said that a poll would be used as an absolute authority on what is perceived as right or wrong.  In my opinion, the larger the poll, the less accurate it can be.  Likewise, the smaller the poll, the more accurate it can be.  As far as how the poll is weighted, that just depends on the demographic that responds to the poll.  I think it would be pretty safe to assume that the active participants on this forum would be considered a part of the target demographic.  I'm not saying that our voice counts more than anybody elses, but they do indeed count for something, and it's VR's discretion to decide what that something means to them.

    An idea to make the poll more engaging ... someone can make a post, letting everybody know that a poll will go live after a set period of time.  This gives everybody an opportunity to present their case while also absorbing the opinions of other players.  This open debate period can help sway a neutral person toward either direction before they even have a chance to vote.  I also wouldn't discredit the value in someone clicking yes/no/option 3.  It might be easy for a person to decide what choice makes the most sense for them, but that doesen't discount their choice in the first place.  There are plenty of topics you could poll me on right now that I would have an answer for before ever needing to see the discussion.  Some people have hard lines when it comes to certain things and could care less about whatever finer details are being debated.  Them taking a hard stance on something doesen't make their opinion any less important ... in fact, I would argue that it's even more important.  If someone decides they just absolutely can't stand feature X or Y, regardless of how it's implemented or what the pros/cons are, that speaks volumes.

    Again, I'm not saying that polls should be used as the final say on any specific topic.  That doesen't even make sense.  It's just information to analyze, a small piece of the grand puzzle that can either be utilized or ignored altogether.  Personally I would like to see whether the community is split 90/10 on an issue, 80/20, 50/50, etc.  All of that is relevant in my eyes.  Clearly if a poll has 200 people voting on it and 90% of the people choose the same answer ... that's pretty meaningful.  This is why businesses all over the country constantly survey their customers or 3'rd party companies are asked to conduct polls.  Some people are less likely to express themselves on these forums than others, whether that's because of their personality or ability to convey their thoughts in the manner they want them to be perceived, and having a poll might be the only way to ever truly collect their input.  Seriously, every time I get food from a restaurant there is a "take our survey" thing on the back offering me a chance to win something if I would participate in their survey.  While a survey is different than a poll, they seek to accomplish the same thing.  That oh so important thing is YOUR OPINION, and it's worth a lot more than you might think.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 30, 2017 8:11 PM PST
    • 3405 posts
    January 30, 2017 7:32 PM PST

    kelenin said:

    Feyshtey said:

    Polls in a setting like this can be pretty misleading. You're polling the vocal minority of players, and trying to apply it to the desire of the target audience is frankly a bit counterproductive. Just because a poll says that 80% of respondants want instancing doesnt mean that the target audience of Pantheon does. It just adds another layer of "well the poll said!" flame to the fire of conversation, leading to people who provide logical thought out arguments being disregarded because the poll already "settled" the discussion. Even the number of people who read and paid for the ability to post is a far different number than the people willing to read, think and discuss a topic. Clicking yes/no/option3 is easy. Being engaged isnt. 

    To add to this, polls are hard to do effectively, because frequently a person's answer does not fit into the options provided.  I prefer the current way of doing things which requires a person to voice their actual opinion instead of choosing the closest option to their opinion.

     

    I appreciate the idea of people expressing their opinions, trust me, if anybody does, I do.  I am very expressive and opinionated.  But sometimes a person can ask a very simple question on here such as would you rather see this, or that, and it turns into a mosh pit of bickering and self-justification.  I've started several threads where I ask the community a very specific question and very rarely does it ever get answered in the format that I requested.  It always turns into a wrestling match where people want to squeeze the life out of anybody willing to challenge them.  I do appreciate the ability to communicate on the forum and that option wouldn't be taken away from anybody.  People can debate until they're blue in the face if that's what they want to do, but it would be VERY helpful to have a more precise way of gathering some additional information on how people feel.

    A poll could help accomplish that and wouldn't take away from the discussion at hand.  I understand how it can add "fuel to the fire" and that's kind of the point.  It doesen't mean that people should be disrespectful to each other or insult each other if they disagree or their vote is that of the minority.  That's why the poll would be anonymous.  If you want to engage in the conversation and attempt to sway the audience, go for it.  If you want to vote on the poll and be done with it, never to return to the thread again ... well ... hey, I'd like your opinion too.  It does count, and it does matter.  If someone can't handle trying to justify their position on a matter and see that 90% of people disagree with them ... consider laying off a bit and doing something else for awhile.  


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 30, 2017 8:13 PM PST
    • 2902 posts
    January 30, 2017 9:00 PM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    Polls in a setting like this can be pretty misleading. You're polling the vocal minority of players, and trying to apply it to the desire of the target audience is frankly a bit counterproductive. Just because a poll says that 80% of respondants want instancing doesnt mean that the target audience of Pantheon does. It just adds another layer of "well the poll said!" flame to the fire of conversation, leading to people who provide logical thought out arguments being disregarded because the poll already "settled" the discussion. Even the number of people who read and paid for the ability to post is a far different number than the people willing to read, think and discuss a topic. Clicking yes/no/option3 is easy. Being engaged isnt. 

     

    This exactly. All you end up with are pseudo-polls. Due to the means of accessing the forums by supporting the game and on top of that being active in them, we have a vocal minority. Polls samples done like this are rarely representative of the larger populations they presume to represent. Those who do register their opinion are usually only the people most interested in the topic. Polls where the voters are self-selected are innately flawed. 

     

    To use the words of the American Association for Public Opinion Research: 

     

    Only when a Web-based survey adheres to established principles of scientific data collection can it be characterized as representing the population from which the sample was drawn. But if it uses volunteer respondents, allows respondents to participate in the survey more than once, or excludes portions of the population from participation, it must be characterized as unscientific and is unrepresentative of any population.

     

     

    • 3405 posts
    January 30, 2017 9:10 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    Feyshtey said:

    Polls in a setting like this can be pretty misleading. You're polling the vocal minority of players, and trying to apply it to the desire of the target audience is frankly a bit counterproductive. Just because a poll says that 80% of respondants want instancing doesnt mean that the target audience of Pantheon does. It just adds another layer of "well the poll said!" flame to the fire of conversation, leading to people who provide logical thought out arguments being disregarded because the poll already "settled" the discussion. Even the number of people who read and paid for the ability to post is a far different number than the people willing to read, think and discuss a topic. Clicking yes/no/option3 is easy. Being engaged isnt. 

     

    This exactly. All you end up with are pseudo-polls. Due to the means of accessing the forums by supporting the game and on top of that being active in them, we have a vocal minority. Polls samples done like this are rarely representative of the larger populations they presume to represent. Those who do register their opinion are usually only the people most interested in the topic. Polls where the voters are self-selected are innately flawed. 

     

    To use the words of the American Association for Public Opinion Research: 

     

    Only when a Web-based survey adheres to established principles of scientific data collection can it be characterized as representing the population from which the sample was drawn. But if it uses volunteer respondents, allows respondents to participate in the survey more than once, or excludes portions of the population from participation, it must be characterized as unscientific and is unrepresentative of any population.

     

     

     

    Okay, I'd like to create polls with the disclaimer that they are characterized as unscientific and unrepresentative of any population.  I'm fine with that.

    • 3272 posts
    January 30, 2017 10:03 PM PST

    We had polls before...I think Kilsin explained what happened with those..somewhere on here.    Were getting repeats and polls that were used pretty much to gain status "points" (kind of)  anyways ..we'll see what happens when Vbulletin forums are up.  I like polls,  just not repeats over and over. :)

    • Moderator
    • 9083 posts
    January 31, 2017 1:20 AM PST

    We had polls and turned them off as they were being misused and abused for popularity and points towards the achievement system, they actually lowered the quality of the content and discussions and were the cause of a lot of arguments as the person who created the polls usually made them with a lack of answers or options for everyone to properly choose from, they are not something I would like to see on the new forums unless they are VR controlled for us to gather specific targeted feedback on some topics.


    This post was edited by Kilsin at January 31, 2017 1:21 AM PST
    • 407 posts
    January 31, 2017 2:01 AM PST

    Good :D - this community thinks alot like I do. No polls/votes. They can be used in a popularity agenda to provide a false as a truth or to suggest that we the community have a say on something that happens in the game. Like Kilsin said; if they wanted feedback or want us to let us vote on something they will.

    There are alot of complicated issues behind why I don't think why a community should have a say on a games developement.. but basically because some people or a crowd will always tried to enact their vision of the game onto it. I got "ousted" as a "tyrant" by my community; whom I liked and was a volunteer developer for helping create a mmomod which then I was pushed to the sidelines after I'd made it. Only to then watch them undo some of my longnights of (free) work. Ofc they didn't see or feel the "bigger picture" for the game/mmomod and anyway I went back a year later and they'd reverted to my older version after they'd realise what the actual bigger picture was.
    I wouldn't wish this on anyone.. it was a horrible experience to be ousted like that (by polls) after putting so much time an effort into it.

    Plus there are other artistic and innovative issues as to why people shouldn't have an influence on a game. I think the best way to get what I mean across is to basically give you an example of what I mean.

    Imagine a sculptor.. one day he allows his fans to have a tiny bit of influence on his models after all he's a nice man and loves his fans. He creates the base model of the statue of david he's trying to make.. So then all his fans then line up one by one to have a tiny bit of influence/adjustment on the model so that all of them can then say "we did it". Fan by fan they each come into the sculptor's room and adjust the base model bit by bit.. after a time the model begins to droop... and eventually after enough fans have visited.. the model is a now a perfectly round lump of clay... Everyone seems happy.. "yay we did it!" say the fans and the developer.. But where now is that statue of david he once tried to create? aka too much influence is bad.

    Also, he then creates the next model/(game) and it get's a base design of the eiffel tower..  and thus the whole process of the fans coming in one by one begins again.. "yay!" they shout "we did it!"..
    My point is no matter what the sculptor makes as a base.. it'll always turn out to be just a blob. - Standardisation/uniformed ideas/fan democracy - while useful in appealing to all.. only creates the same old game/ideas. -> Stagnation aka "the blob game".

    The true innovation in games I feel is when mistakes are made; lessons are learnt and someone else is influenced by them and branches out with something else with other idea's on top.. the whole process is then looked at from another guy to the next.. and branches out across a web of creativity. Standardise stuff.. and that won't happen. Evolution needs to happen. Games need to be artistically free.


    This post was edited by Nimryl at January 31, 2017 3:26 AM PST
    • 1303 posts
    January 31, 2017 4:30 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

      I never said that a poll would be used as an absolute authority on what is perceived as right or wrong.    

    I know you didnt. And I didnt intend to suggest that. But unfortunately when there's a poll that states that a majority of those that responded believe a particular way, it IS used as an authoritative source by those that agree with the results. You will never hear the end of the "We've already proven with the poll that...". It will also be used as ammunition to lob at the developers, with statements like, "VR isnt listening to us. We already proved most players want... ". 

     

    • 3405 posts
    January 31, 2017 5:04 AM PST
    Thanks for the response Kilsin. I would like to see a weekly or monthly poll on the forum. Maybe 2, whereas the second gives the community 4 options to choose from regarding what the next poll will be. I have never seen one used and I think it could help spruce things up around here. I can appreciate why you strayed away from allowing players to create their own polls, but I think there is still plenty of potential for them if they are initiated by the development team.
    • 117 posts
    January 31, 2017 5:46 AM PST

    Forum polls are the worst way to gauge what the player base wants.  Most people only come to forums to complain so your respondent pool is already heavily skewed.  It combined all the worst aspects of design by committee.

    In game polls are slightly better since they actually involve people who are actually playing the game.  

    • 4522 posts
    January 31, 2017 6:58 AM PST

    EQN is obviously an abysmal example of game development, but I think one of the few cool things they did was post weekly or bi-weekly polls on their website to see what the community's preferences were on a particular area the devs were currently working on. It was fun to partake in those. There was an additional forum topic to discuss it further, but of course a lot of people found it easier to just click a button and leave it at that. The statistics were pretty interesting. I wouldn't mind VR doing something similar. For example, even just recently, Kilsin asked the community "How do you choose your name?". That's totally something that could be made into a poll. And just have the last option be "Other (explain in the comments below)." Of course this question in particular may be more of a curiosity than an actual development question, but Kils often asks other questions, some of which may be more helpful to the dev team to help them focus their efforts. They have said that these are development forums and are intended to help the dev team. I believe they have already gained some useful info from here. It's not just a hangout spot so I think dev-created polls would be logical. I can see this being particularly useful during testing. It's much easier to look at the poll results than trying to scrub through all the comments to see where the plurality of the community lies. But player-created polls seem useless. That's my opinion anyway.  Should they make a poll about whether or not there should be polls? lol

    • 1303 posts
    January 31, 2017 7:33 AM PST

    I will admit that during testing polls configured by the devs could be quite valuable, so long as the testers are the ones responding. 

    • Moderator
    • 9083 posts
    January 31, 2017 4:45 PM PST

    oneADseven said: Thanks for the response Kilsin. I would like to see a weekly or monthly poll on the forum. Maybe 2, whereas the second gives the community 4 options to choose from regarding what the next poll will be. I have never seen one used and I think it could help spruce things up around here. I can appreciate why you strayed away from allowing players to create their own polls, but I think there is still plenty of potential for them if they are initiated by the development team.

    To be honest, they really are not needed, polls are used to focus your thoughts into a small and restricted pool of possible answers, whereas I gather information from an open-ended and much larger pool of possible answers where you folks are free to speak your mind without restriction on the development forums, if I change that and force you all into a very small closed chain of possible answers that I create, it isn't giving me the best possible spread of answers, ideas and feedback to pass on to the Devs, it is not a true representation of what you actually think or feel and creates a false positive.

    I would much rather continue with the open nature and freedom of the forums to gather unrestricted ideas and feedback, like I have been doing for the last few years, it is a lot more work for me but it is a lot more accurate and therefore valuable to me.

    We have fun with polls every now and then on Twitter and probably will mess around with them for fun or with CM content on the new forums but we would prefer asking you specific questions and gathering your unique ideas and feedback around that specific question than forcing a few options on to you and limiting your potential to give feedback that we may not have thought of, if that makes sense.